Crossbreeding - AGAIN!

[Caustic Burno]

I like cows and watching them grow, mature, and raise their calves.

That is me. I realize that there are more ways to skin a cat.

If you have access to good quality replacement females for reasonable prices and don't want to mess with heifer development, then it sounds like you have a winner.

If you want to go strictly terminal, you could put a Charolais bull on any of the mentioned cows.

Or you could put a Black Simmental over the Angus/Gelbvieh cross cows, or opposite.

Or, you could put a Balancer over the SimmAngus females (or vice versa) and sell the females there next year while still kicking butt on the steer calves.

Like I said, if you are happy with the quality for the price, the you really have it made with a deal like that.

Good luck buying!

Badlands

Lot of difference in opinon's on bulls, kinda like the little boy that kissed the calf in the ass, everyone to there own taste.
You only listed one bull I would allow in my pasture.

 

[VanC]

It is easier if you use Angus (Red or Black), but you don't have to. High marbling Herefords or good Non-Appendix Shorthorns will work just as well.

However, if you are selling at weaning, you can add $ by making them black, which as you know is a marketing strategy, rather than a principle based on any sound reasoning.

I still recommend using a red cow and putting a black bull over her for the terminal calves, unless you use a Charolais bull, then you probably want a black cow.

Which breeds? It varies with the environment, your marketing ability, etc.

It is nice to have a shot on Continental in the cowherd as that brings early puberty and more fertility, so you could do well with a Hereford/Simmental or Hereford/Gelbvieh or Hereford/Tarentaise (my favorite) cross cow and terminal sire her to most Angus big REA Black Angus bull. If the Angus bull has 80 pounds of YW EPD or more, those calves will grow right there with average Simmental and Gelbvieh of today.

I think Angus bulls are underutilized as terminal bulls today. Most people are still hung up on how fertile they are, but they really aren't all that great, and anybody with pure Angus and pue Gelbvieh or Simmental in the same herds will confirm that. They will also confirm that Angus grow as good as the Continentals and mature to just as large a size. So, why not use Angus as terminal sires? You get adaptability in the cowherd by keeping them red, and you get to sell Angus sired Black calves for all sorts of premiums, plus with the Continental influence from the cow, they WILL make more CAB than straight Angus.

Badlands

Good post, but why not a Charolais bull over red cows instead of black ones? Don't yellows sell as well or better than grays?

 

[MikeC]

Good post, but why not a Charolais bull over red cows instead of black ones? Don't yellows sell as well or better than grays?

They do. Plus you leave out all possibilities of rat tails.

 

[ga. prime]

You can get red calves from the CharolaisXRed Cow mating. To some, that would be reason enough to avoid that mating.

 

[MikeC]

You can get red calves from the CharolaisXRed Cow mating.

Well DUH!!!! No kidding? Does that alone make them less able to meet the higher grid prices and specs?

To some, that would be reason enough to avoid that mating.

To some, that would enough reason to pursue that mating. The world is not stuck on Black, there are several other grids that pay equal to the CAB grid.

Plus, those would make some good mama cows.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Thanks for the well reasoned responses to my query, DOC and Badlands. DOC, you probably are familiar with similar sales as the Tifton HERD sale coming up April 17. Heifers are given reproductive tract maturity scores, pelvic area taken, WDA, frame score, and so forth and AI bred to a low bw Angus bull for fall calving(this year to a bull called Mytty In Focus.) The reason I'm saying all this is that a person could go there and buy made to order heifers. Sim-Ang, Gelb-Ang, Char-Ang, Brangus, etc. From that point, get youself a terminal bull and you're in business for the long haul without having to have several pasture areas. You could do it with any number of heifers great or small. What say you?

ga.prime -

Your ". . .made-to-order heifers" plan tells me that you have spent a lot of time thinking about the Beef Cattle Business! I applaud you for being innovative! I have seen similar types of programs such as this put into practice and, with a few minor exceptions, it works very well - IF - you pay strict attention to a few GIVEN preliminaries and prerequisites:

1- You have the necessary capital available to be able to acquire optimal Genetics - which is mandatory for the project to operable AND SUCCESSFUL!

2- You have the physical plant and functional management assignments established IN ADVANCE before you are required to place them in operation - cattle management facilities, chutes, necessary medical equipment, rotational pastures, dependable fences and buildings sufficient enough to preclude your wasting time and effort which should be unnecessary with a well organized operation.

3- The idea is so operational in concept that it must be managed in an optimal manner,so that it can work like a smooth machine!

4- The producer must be so knowledgeable of his COW'S genetics that his selection of Sires must be close to PERFECTION in phenotype and genotype regarding all traits so as to be compatible with his cow herd - particularly Carcass characteristics and specifically IMF and REA EPD's!

5- Utilize an EarTag program which easily and readily identifys each animal so as to prevent breeding errors.

There are many ideas and practice technics which will make a program such as this perform smoothly, and you can work it out to the degree that it is as easy and enjoyable to put into practice as possible, and can be a paradigm to the industry!

Badlands has mentioned several options which would work very well. One important caveat I feel I should mention: it will not be cheap or inexpensive to enter into this operation in the beginning. Nothing worth while is. If you are going to do it - - DO IT RIGHT to begin. Plan your work - and work your plan. I am excited for you, and please keep us up to date with your progress!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Badlands]

In my area, smokies sell better than the buckskins.

It was a general sort of guide only, to be picked apart relative to your local market conditions.

Badlands

 

[regenwether]

If you put a Charolais bull on a Hereford/Angus cross cow what will the calf look like?? Yellow white faced? Now if you were going to run those calves through the sale barn I'm curious how they would shake out. Since they are yellow they would sell at a bit of an discount however wouldn't their wt's be heavier??

 

[ga. prime]

MikeC, I guess I'm like the world because I'm not stuck on black cattle either. But, I think that you would agree that some are. That's what I said in my post re. the red calf question. Didn't mean to imply anything else. :lol:

 

[ga. prime]

DOC and Badlands, thanks for all the in-depth info. Didn't mean to imply that I'm going to set in motion the heifer aquisition plan that I described. Just that it's out there as an option. Right now I'm pretty well at capacity(with a fairly decent set of cows) for my pasture situation. However, if the hay situation for the '07-'08 winter shapes up like this past winter, I will strongly consider going into heavy sale mode in early Fall. Then buy back in at the April '08 HERD sale. 8)

 

[ROCK-N-W]

I started with a small herd of twelve beefmaster cows
they we're bred with a purebreed Brahman & charlois mix bull.
just starting out with little funds I kept all hieffers and have built my herd from that stock. The first thing I did was to sell both bulls. I replaced with two black Brangus bulls and ran them for two years,keeping all replacment hieffers, Then I sold the Brangus bulls & put in two reg red Angus, wanting to cut down on ear size, ran them for three years keeping hieffers and then recently replaced them with Black angus bulls. What do I got? I also have several well, we call um brindles but I like that fancy tigerstripe name ya got going. When they are bred to any of the above bulls they throw solid reds or blacks and make great cows & are well suited for this hot south florida heat, the angus do struggle with it. What should be my next step in a bull? I really like watching and learning the differences in what comes out.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I started with a small herd of twelve beefmaster cows
they we're bred with a purebreed Brahman & charlois mix bull.
just starting out with little funds I kept all hieffers and have built my herd from that stock. The first thing I did was to sell both bulls. I replaced with two black Brangus bulls and ran them for two years,keeping all replacment hieffers, Then I sold the Brangus bulls & put in two reg red Angus, wanting to cut down on ear size, ran them for three years keeping hieffers and then recently replaced them with Black angus bulls. What do I got? I also have several well, we call um brindles but I like that fancy tigerstripe name ya got going. When they are bred to any of the above bulls they throw solid reds or blacks and make great cows & are well suited for this hot south florida heat, the angus do struggle with it. What should be my next step in a bull? I really like watching and learning the differences in what comes out.

your next step should be to turn the volume down on that mongrelization you got going with a good purebred bull and clean house

 

[ROCK-N-W]

Every bull that I have added has been a pure breed, the last black angus on top of red angus. I am at the point that I sell all calves including hieffers, I do get a decient price at market for what I sell and the animals do have decent body scores.

 

[ROCK-N-W]

Thought I might throw in some beefalows,& top um off with a couple of jackalopes.
read into what I wrote a little harder and you might see that I have been slowly changing the genetic make up of my herd.
The herd is almost all over 50% Angus now with some brahmhan , very little of the short redhorn,or herferd comes thru. But I do get some throw backs from the charlois that was in the herd but it mixes fine with the angus.
This is coming from a true blooded hienz 57 varity all American.
I haven't spent a lot of time researching cattle a lot more time actually doing the work that comes with it..

 

[ALACOWMAN]

experimenting with different bull's is fine. but with heinz 57 momas. and retaining heifers i would stick with one and start to get a more perdictable consistant group. then venture out into the bull world

 

[KenB]

Every bull that I have added has been a pure breed, the last black angus on top of red angus.

I am at the point that I sell all calves including hieffers,

Go with a good continental bull of your choice. ;-)

I do get a decient price at market for what I sell and the animals do have decent body scores.

 

[ROCK-N-W]

I will just do that, this will be th fith year that I have been running either black or red angus bulls, and the old girls are starting to be sold as they are unproductive or just plain ole dye. The two black angus bulls are new last year & I am sitting here , looking at some of their calves born in the last two weeks they . ook mighty nice to me lets hope the market thinkss so. They may be a mess compared to what I'm reading from this post , but my wife goes to all the ranches in this area with her job and she says what we got looks as good or betteren than most she sees. thanks for the input, but I think after two more years with theese Angus I might try a Charlois or somthing that can tolerate this heat a little more. Who knows maybe I'm on to somthing the same buyers seem to like my calfs wish I could get some feedback freom feed lots though.

 

[VanC]

If you put a Charolais bull on a Hereford/Angus cross cow what will the calf look like?? Yellow white faced? Now if you were going to run those calves through the sale barn I'm curious how they would shake out. Since they are yellow they would sell at a bit of an discount however wouldn't their wt's be heavier??

You would get mostly yellows and grays, some with white faces. In some areas the yellows and yellow white faced sell even better than black and black white faced. Just depends on where you're selling.

 

[ROCK-N-W]

I new if I commented in this blog I would get some neg feed back but in my own defense. My decisions have been based on economics & what was available when I needed it. The black Brangus bulls that I first introduced tolarated the conditions the best of any of the bulls that I have had, and they sure are hard workers, but at that time the Dumbo ears did not do well at the market, so I choose to run the angus bulls to cut down on ear size, and from what I understand the red or black angus are exactly the same except color. I do have a couple of char from my orginal 12 and breed with the angus, the calves with the red come out I call a peachy cream color, and with the blacks somtimes more a chocalte, but they have both animals traits, highly muscled, nice frame fat in stature, strait backs and top body scores. I think the Angus char cross makes for a fine animal. My bull calves average 440 to 480 lbs at six months grass & momma only. A picture tells thousand words if I can fiqure out how to post one ,the proofs in the puddin.

 

[ROCK-N-W]

My goal from the start was to get 5oo lb plus calves at 6ms weening age, I'm a working on it.. when I first started most what I took to the market only weighed averg 375lbs. I just don't like having to pull calves and lose 1st time hieffers, Trying to get my cows frames up to handle a char bull on em .
I quess if I left them on for nine months I would reach my goal, but that kinda be cheating.