Crossbreeding - AGAIN!

[DOC HARRIS]

" X " BREEDING RE-VISITED-

This subject is, justifiably, a topic which should be uppermost in the mind's of every serious beef cattle breeder if "Profit" is part of the purpose for your being in the BU$INE$$! If, on the other hand, you are not interested in making money, you can go to another thread - and play color games, and cute little "My-Breed-is-BLACKER-than your Breed" - or - "My-Bull-is-BETTER-than-your-Bull" psychogenic blather exercises, and disparage your fellow Beef Cattle producers instead of attempting to understand the complex particulars of the Art and Science of breeding PROFITABLE Beef Cattle, and utilize those technics which will enhance your life-style and improve your business!

That being said - I am reminded of some of the questioning posts recently in respect to "Crossbreeding with three or four or more breeds" blended into the mix, and the advisability of engaging in that complicated activity.

I have no quarrel with those who are opposed to the complexity of 'multi-breed' crossbreeding - particularly if their cow herd size and acreage is not large enough to justify the efforts involved. A multi-breed crossbreeding program is NOT feasible unless the operation is comprised of several hundred - or - thousands of brood cows, and the accompanying acreage to accomodate the pasturage necessary for an operative, practical rotational grazing system to make it expedient.

Make no mistake in your thinking regarding crossbreeding systems! The procedures are COMPLICATED, and should not be entered into without considerable study, thought, and planning beforehand. As the number of breeds increase in the crossbreeding "mix", the procedures become more complicated, exponentially, and, eventually, the breeder arrives at a line of demarcation whereby it is questionable as to whether the results of four or more breed interjections in the mating system is justified. That decision must be made by the breeder himself.

One method of advancing into this multi-breed system would be to begin with HIGH QUALITY, PROVEN, PURCHASED. BRED CROSSBRED COWS - enabling one to begin the cycle with a THREE breed formula, - - ALL ORIGINAL seedstock being purebred within their particular breed lines. This protocol would save about 2.5 - 4.0 years of beginning with all original single-breed seedstock, and building from that point.

My whole purpose of re-establishing this thread again is to perhaps simplify the overall thinking regarding crossbreeding protocols, and stimulate your thinking toward accepting the fact that there is another way of breeding beef cattle than the same ol' - same ol'!

Following is some information derived from MARC data, and the Gelpvieh Association which I thought might be of some interest to you all:

Meat Animal Research Center data, as well as research at many universities, support the theory that the leaner, growth breeds, including Gelbvieh, have the edge in feed efficiency. British breeds deposit more fat; energy-wise that comes with a high price tag.

Data from the Gelbvieh Alliance clearly shows the advantages of combining Gelbvieh and British breeds, Angus or Hereford, in a designed crossbreeding program. This data was the basis for the development of the SmartCross"µ system and our promotion of the Gelbvieh breed as a component in crossbreeding.

I trust that some of this material will motivate your thinking, and galvanize your actions into improving your genetic selections rather than to just ". . .go down the road and buy a cow-freshener bull".

I didn't present this thread to stimulate sarcasm, or start a fight - just to promote your thinking.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Brandonm2]

I didn't disagree with any of that. Everybody has pretty much accepted that typically crossing 2 breeds is more productive than straightbreeding one breed and adding a third breed generally leads to higher production that a two breed system. What is less clear is what advantage one would get by adding a 4th breed or a 5th breed. Somebody who changed bulls every 4 years would be pushing retirement age by the time they came back around to the first breed again.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I didn't disagree with any of that. Everybody has pretty much accepted that typically crossing 2 breeds is more productive than straightbreeding one breed and adding a third breed generally leads to higher production that a two breed system. What is less clear is what advantage one would get by adding a 4th breed or a 5th breed. Somebody who changed bulls every 4 years would be pushing retirement age by the time they came back around to the first breed again.

Brandonm2-

You are absolutely right, and I neglected to suggest that using HIGH QUALITY, CROSSBRED BULLS ON HIGH QUALITY CROSSBRED COWS of two different breeds other than the bulls, either natually, or AI, or ET would save TIME, and at the same time minimize the dilution of Heterosis! Heterosis (Hybrid Vigor) is the number 1 justification for engaging in Crossbreeding, and there is no argument as to the legitimacy of that protocol - given the complementarity factors which ensue when using breeds which complement weaknesses found in opposing breeds.

Brandon - I reluctantly admit my prejudices toward crossbreeding being those which result in a herd becoming one of "Joseph's Coat of Colors" - BUT that is insignificant when compared to the improvement in Genotype and Phenotype considerations - color notwithstanding. I have to place the blame on my advanced years (u-u-o -o-o-f-f-f--!! it is hard to admit that!!) as I was 'sot in my ways' when it came to SOLID hair color - -but that doesn't spell beans when it comes to profit. BLACK COLOR doesn't guarantee quality - it only indicates the possibility of it. It requires more thought, knowledge and study to acquire desirable characteristics than to just buy a certain color animal!

It has taken many years of my being 'open-minded' to arrive at that conclusion, but I am learning!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Badlands]

There's really only theoretical advantage to including more than 2 or 3 breeds in a crossbreeding system.

It might make a little more sense to include 3 or 4 breeds in a composite, and especially a "southern composite".

Any more than that and it just doesn't matter in terms of real dollars, only on the paper.

Badlands

 

[Wewild]

BLACK COLOR doesn't guarantee quality - it only indicates the possibility of it.
DOC HARRIS

Good post.

There are other options that allow a cattleman not to worry about black. Black can be frowned on in some markets.

Folks on here that say that black is the best way may not have tried it some other ways. Just as I have only tried it their way 50%.

I guess it come down to what you like to look at and if you believe your sh*t don't stink.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

There's really only theoretical advantage to including more than 2 or 3 breeds in a crossbreeding system.

It might make a little more sense to include 3 or 4 breeds in a composite, and especially a "southern composite".

Any more than that and it just doesn't matter in terms of real dollars, only on the paper.

Badlands

Badlands-

You would get an "Impossible-to-Refute" Seminar from Lee Leachman if you were to present those ideas to him!!

He could, in effect, "Read You from the Book" and dispel all arguments that you could possibly come up with. Take a page from the book of "Possibilities" and be open-minded. It might just make you some money! But don't approach the discussion with a chip on your shoulder!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Aero]

so Doc,
you are saying to start with crossbred cows.

how are you going to have a sustainable level of heterosis? it sounds like you are going to breed crossbred cows to crossbred bulls.

if you dont have some "pure" or straight stock, how are you going to make the crossbred cows? just keep buying them?

 

[MikeC]

so Doc,
you are saying to start with crossbred cows.

how are you going to have a sustainable level of heterosis? it sounds like you are going to breed crossbred cows to crossbred bulls.

if you dont have some "pure" or straight stock, how are you going to make the crossbred cows? just keep buying them?

They are not crossbreds anymore, Matt.

We are supposed to call them "Composites".

I

 

[Aero]

They are not crossbreds anymore, Matt.

We are supposed to call them "Composites".

I

if they are from 2 breeds, they are crossbreds. if they have more than 2 breeds, they are composites.

these are my criteria.

 

[MikeC]

They are not crossbreds anymore, Matt.

We are supposed to call them "Composites".

I

if they are from 2 breeds, they are crossbreds. if they have more than 2 breeds, they are composites.

these are my criteria.

Brett Barham, Ph.D. Introduction
Extension Livestock
Specialist The terms composite, synthetic
and hybrid are used to signify new
breeds or new lines of cattle. Many
times these terms are used interchangeably.
In any case, a planned
mating scheme is designed to combine
the desirable traits of two or more
breeds into one "package" (or composite).
A more formal definition of a composite
is a breed made up of at least two
component breeds, designed to retain
heterosis in future generations without
crossbreeding and maintained as
a purebred.

 

[S.R.R.]

I didn't disagree with any of that. Everybody has pretty much accepted that typically crossing 2 breeds is more productive than straightbreeding one breed and adding a third breed generally leads to higher production that a two breed system. What is less clear is what advantage one would get by adding a 4th breed or a 5th breed. Somebody who changed bulls every 4 years would be pushing retirement age by the time they came back around to the first breed again.

Brandonm2-

You are absolutely right, and I neglected to suggest that using HIGH QUALITY, CROSSBRED BULLS ON HIGH QUALITY CROSSBRED COWS of two different breeds other than the bulls, either natually, or AI, or ET would save TIME, and at the same time minimize the dilution of Heterosis! Heterosis (Hybrid Vigor) is the number 1 justification for engaging in Crossbreeding, and there is no argument as to the legitimacy of that protocol - given the complementarity factors which ensue when using breeds which complement weaknesses found in opposing breeds.

Brandon - I reluctantly admit my prejudices toward crossbreeding being those which result in a herd becoming one of "Joseph's Coat of Colors" - BUT that is insignificant when compared to the improvement in Genotype and Phenotype considerations - color notwithstanding. I have to place the blame on my advanced years (u-u-o -o-o-f-f-f--!! it is hard to admit that!!) as I was 'sot in my ways' when it came to SOLID hair color - -but that doesn't spell beans when it comes to profit. BLACK COLOR doesn't guarantee quality - it only indicates the possibility of it. It requires more thought, knowledge and study to acquire desirable characteristics than to just buy a certain color animal!

It has taken many years of my being 'open-minded' to arrive at that conclusion, but I am learning!

DOC HARRIS

:cowboy: :cowboy: DOC HARRIS you art the Sh!T please send me some of what you are smokingQ!

GREAT post!! :cowboy: :cowboy:

 

[Aero]

MikeC:
the definitions of terminology which are only delineated by degree are pointless. just like the Lents definition of linebreeding, who is he to say that 12.5%IBC is linebreeding and 15% is inbreeding?

just because some guy smarter than me defined a boundary doesnt mean he is right or wrong.

 

[beef]

Doc:

Are there any studies which compare the long term commercial profitability of purebred cattle which have been selected for longevity and fertility to the long term commecial profitabilty of crossbred cattle whose purebred parents were not the result of such selection?

 

[TxStateCowboy]

What would the industry look like if everyone bred for desirable characteristics, like fertility and longevity, regardless of breed (meaning crossbreeding all over), spanning over the last 100 or so years? would the industry not be much better off because interests focus on the development of good cattle vs. breed guidelines/breeder interests?

 

[Brandonm2]

What would the industry look like if everyone bred for desirable characteristics, like fertility and longevity, regardless of breed (meaning crossbreeding all over), spanning over the last 100 or so years? would the industry not be much better off because interests focus on the development of good cattle vs. breed guidelines/breeder interests?

I am not kicking fertility or longevity; BUT I have seen a lot of dinky little cows that had a calf every year and lived virtually forever. Everybody hates a cow that is wore out by age 8; but is that really that common? We sold a lot of 11-13 year old cows NOT because they were wore out; but because the two year olds who were coming up were predicted to be more productive cows. Anybody who has a comprehensive vaccination and deworming program and who is conscious of nutrition can get 90-95% of their cows bred pretty easy (better than 95% was the norm here for years). Maybe I don't get out enough; BUT fertility and longevity have never been problems in herds I was affiliated with and I don't see how you select for that anyway. A good cow breeds back every year till she is 12. A great cow does it past age 16. Are we really going to wait that LONG to keep heifers back from a top cow??

 

[TxStateCowboy]

What would the industry look like if everyone bred for desirable characteristics, like fertility and longevity, regardless of breed (meaning crossbreeding all over), spanning over the last 100 or so years? would the industry not be much better off because interests focus on the development of good cattle vs. breed guidelines/breeder interests?

I am not kicking fertility or longevity; BUT I have seen a lot of dinky little cows that had a calf every year and lived virtually forever. Everybody hates a cow that is wore out by age 8; but is that really that common? We sold a lot of 11-13 year old cows NOT because they were wore out; but because the two year olds who were coming up were predicted to be more productive cows. Anybody who has a comprehensive vaccination and deworming program and who is conscious of nutrition can get 90-95% of their cows bred pretty easy (better than 95% was the norm here for years). Maybe I don't get out enough; BUT fertility and longevity have never been problems in herds I was affiliated with and I don't see how you select for that anyway. A good cow breeds back every year till she is 12. A great cow does it past age 16. Are we really going to wait that LONG to keep heifers back from a top cow??

I agree fertility/longevity problems are not common, but I think should never be looked over for useless traits such as hide color/horns/special breed guidelines. I wouldn't suggest those are the only traits that should be selected for, as growth, milk, and disposition are equally important. One useful trait I like is length, nothing spells good heifer to me like a long, strong topline.

Aren't single-breed cattlemen racists?(a joke). Shouldn't cattle be judged by their character[istics] rather than the color of their hair or the different types of bodily growths?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

What would the industry look like if everyone bred for desirable characteristics, like fertility and longevity, regardless of breed (meaning crossbreeding all over), spanning over the last 100 or so years? would the industry not be much better off because interests focus on the development of good cattle vs. breed guidelines/breeder interests?

I am not kicking fertility or longevity; BUT I have seen a lot of dinky little cows that had a calf every year and lived virtually forever. Everybody hates a cow that is wore out by age 8; but is that really that common? We sold a lot of 11-13 year old cows NOT because they were wore out; but because the two year olds who were coming up were predicted to be more productive cows. Anybody who has a comprehensive vaccination and deworming program and who is conscious of nutrition can get 90-95% of their cows bred pretty easy (better than 95% was the norm here for years). Maybe I don't get out enough; BUT fertility and longevity have never been problems in herds I was affiliated with and I don't see how you select for that anyway. A good cow breeds back every year till she is 12. A great cow does it past age 16. Are we really going to wait that LONG to keep heifers back from a top cow??

Brandonm2 - and TxStateCowboy - and Beef -

I know of no Official studies (Universities or Beef Associations) which specifically address your concerns, probably because to manage the crossbreeding system correctly, the third and/or fourth matings in returning to an original breed MUST be to PUREBRED Bulls - this to encourage and exacerbate HETEROSIS - not dilute it. This crossbreeding technic is designed PRECISELY to maximize heterosis (hybrid vigor) - NOT minimize or dilute it!

The answer that Brandonm2 submitted is as definite as can be given. Improvement of Genotype and Phenotype characteristics certainly can be expected to occur in a breeding program in 12 - 16 years! No one wishes to be 12 - 16 years BEHIND the improvement curve in their "traits" levels. I doubt very much if a breeder would consider keeping a Bull for 12 - 16 years, and changing cows every 4 - 5 years, and breeding them to that bull.

I have mentioned Lee Leachman in a previous post - and I would recommend that EVERYONE who has even a passing interest in breeding Excellent beef cattle and crossbreeding contact him and get the facts on the INCREDIBLE research they have done in this regard! They have left NOTHING to supposition, assumption, and theory. The facts that they have in their records are positive and breeder friendly.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Badlands]

You would get an "Impossible-to-Refute" Seminar from Lee Leachman if you were to present those ideas to him!!

He could, in effect, "Read You from the Book" and dispel all arguments that you could possibly come up with. Take a page from the book of "Possibilities" and be open-minded. It might just make you some money! But don't approach the discussion with a chip on your shoulder!

Hey Doc, you must not have followed my "take" since I joined the board. If you study what Lee is doing, he has cut out all the older 3 and 4 breed composites, he is nearly 100% 2 breed composite at this stage. He still has a couple cooperators with the older composites, but they are now being breed to 50/50 Continental/Angus bulls.

Why? For the reasons I gave, plus some "perceptions". I state the opinion after following and researching long term crossbreeding systems in commercial herds for 15 years.


Badlands

 

[DOC HARRIS]

You would get an "Impossible-to-Refute" Seminar from Lee Leachman if you were to present those ideas to him!!

He could, in effect, "Read You from the Book" and dispel all arguments that you could possibly come up with. Take a page from the book of "Possibilities" and be open-minded. It might just make you some money! But don't approach the discussion with a chip on your shoulder!

Hey Doc, you must not have followed my "take" since I joined the board. If you study what Lee is doing, he has cut out all the older 3 and 4 breed composites, he is nearly 100% 2 breed composite at this stage. He still has a couple cooperators with the older composites, but they are now being breed to 50/50 Continental/Angus bulls.

Why? For the reasons I gave, plus some "perceptions". I state the opinion after following and researching long term crossbreeding systems in commercial herds for 15 years.


Badlands

Badlands-

With all due respect, I have found that some of your "takes' and "perceptions" are a little difficult to interpret at times. You seem to vacillate between subject matters and purposes.

With the extensive knowledge you have accumulated in the 15 years of researching long term crossbreeding systems, that probably places you in the upper 1% of experts on the subject of "crossbreeding". I appreciate your input to the thread, and for correcting my mistakes.

DOC HARRIS

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Question:

My grandfather is running angus source cows on straight angus bulls. I hope to soon be involved with some of the business decisions, or at least maybe at some point. What would be the best route, I have some ideas and was wondering what you guys thought.

He runs about 120 momma cows, never keeps calves, and the cows stay on pasture all winter and get 20% cubes 2 times a week.

I was thinking that he would do a lot better with a limo, char, or maybe even gelbvieh bull. Since he is straight commercial he likes frame 5 1200lb calves, he doesn't weigh calves at birth and only takes average weights across the scales at weaning. All I know is right now he isn't getting all the growth he could with a true terminal cross