Crossbreeding - AGAIN!

[Brahma Bull]

On those 3 or 4 different breeds.Yeah it would be nice to have a few reg. mom ma cows from each one of those.But I would only AI with a +bull of the same breed the cow is.I would not mix them,cross crossbreed X crossbreed.I would be getting too far off base and square 1.Those breeds are the same as a NASCAR Hotrod.If it is running just fine the way it is,top performance. Then don't mess with it.As far as colors and the breed goes. Well I like Red Brahmas,#9 Dodge and #19 Dodge.I drive a Red Dodge pickup.So thats what I was talking about.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Question:

My grandfather is running angus source cows on straight angus bulls. I hope to soon be involved with some of the business decisions, or at least maybe at some point. What would be the best route, I have some ideas and was wondering what you guys thought.

He runs about 120 momma cows, never keeps calves, and the cows stay on pasture all winter and get 20% cubes 2 times a week.

I was thinking that he would do a lot better with a limo, char, or maybe even gelbvieh bull. Since he is straight commercial he likes frame 5 1200lb calves, he doesn't weigh calves at birth and only takes average weights across the scales at weaning. All I know is right now he isn't getting all the growth he could with a true terminal cross

Encourage your grandfather to come and live in today's Beef Cattle world! Contact the Breed Associations for Red Angus, Gelbvieh, Limousin, Simmental and Angus. Search on each web site for crossbreeding and EPD's, and help him to realize that he can add about $100.00 per cow to his bottom line.

If he won't budge (and he probably won't) tell him you are disappointed because you have always thought that he was a progressive breeder, and he is missing the boat by not helping YOU to be in the coming modern beef breeding business! Get on the internet through "Dogpile" or "Google". go to the SEARCH block and type in ANY subject that you want information about. Read - read - search - and read! Show some of what you learn to grandpa, and I hope that he will listen to you. If he won't - - -well - that's almost what you can expect!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Caustic Burno]

Doc I agree with crossbreeding and your points except on the crossbred bull. You still need uniform calves no matter the color io maximize profit. Your cow herd can get to mongrolized over the years also and your load looks like a box of crayons.
The perfect cow for the south would be an F-1 tiger as no matter what line of bull you put on here you are going to get the most out of your calf crop.
The next best IMO would be a Brangus cow these are your best 3 way crosses in the south again IMO

 

[Badlands]

Caustic,

The "crayola calves" you mention are mostly due to simply inherited traits, like horns, , scurs, hide color, hair color, various spotting genes, wild type mutations, and brindling genes.


In other words, for the Southern USA, they are going to have an uphill battle as "Tigerstripes" (Hereford/Brahman crosses) bring every single gene I mentioned above to the table. Literally, they bring at least 10 single genes to the table that increase the "crayon box" look.

It isn't as true in other parts of the country that don't need the Brahman influence, or don't use the Hereford influence. The traits are easy to control with homozygous red or black bulls that are homozygous polled, with no white face.

The othe point is that it is the Tigerstripe cow causing the problem, NOT the crossbred bull, unless he is a Tigerstripe.

Badlands

 

[Badlands]

You seem to vacillate between subject matters and purposes.

Doc, that is probably because you have decided I belong in a particular "box".
;-)

I do, the crossbreeding box. But there are optimums, and you talk mostly about maximums as it relates to crossbreeding-ie maximizing heterosis. Mazimization of heterosis is NOT the way to go for many folks, and not at all the way to go for folks who retain their own replacement females.


Badlands

 

[Caustic Burno]

Caustic,

The "crayola calves" you mention are mostly due to simply inherited traits, like horns, , scurs, hide color, hair color, various spotting genes, wild type mutations, and brindling genes.


In other words, for the Southern USA, they are going to have an uphill battle as "Tigerstripes" (Hereford/Brahman crosses) bring every single gene I mentioned above to the table. Literally, they bring at least 10 single genes to the table that increase the "crayon box" look.

It isn't as true in other parts of the country that don't need the Brahman influence, or don't use the Hereford influence. The traits are easy to control with homozygous red or black bulls that are homozygous polled, with no white face.

The othe point is that it is the Tigerstripe cow causing the problem, NOT the crossbred bull, unless he is a Tigerstripe.

Badlands

We have had it wrong in the south for the last 90 years ignorant us. If the Tiger was the problem she wouldn't be fetching the premium prices.
A crossbred bull on crossbred cows is the problem too many factors in the wood pile.
Not true you put a Homo black bull on those tigers and your crop is going to be black/Black motely faced/ smokeys.
You put a Hereford bull on those cows and you are going to get a crop of red baldies/ high yellow baldies.

 

[Badlands]

Hey now, caustic, I didn't imply anything about the Southerners having it "wrong".

I understand completely that the Brahman influence has been vital.

I simply explained where some of the variation you are seeing is coming from, and why I understand your comments.

Maybe I didn't make it clear, but when I mentioned using the homozygous bulls, I was talking about why it works in other places that don't have all the same genes causing problems that you folks do in the South.


I understand completely that when you use the bulls I mentioned, you will get variation in colors on the Tigerstripe cow. That why I made the point. It comes from the TIGERSTRIPE cow, NOT the crossbred bull. The comment was about how to get uniformity in non-Brahman influenced herds.

It doesn't mean you folks are doing it wrong. You are just working with the tools you have, I understand that. However, if you begin to understand what causes the problems, maybe you can build some tigerstripes w/o all the genes causing the problems.


Mate them, make F2's and sort for uniformity, you will have a Tigerstripe, without the stripes. Of course, I know better than that, too. Folks won't buy Tigerstripes w/o stripes. And that, caustic is a perception problem and nothing else.

Badlands

 

[Caustic Burno]

Hey now, caustic, I didn't imply anything about the Southerners having it "wrong".

I understand completely that the Brahman influence has been vital.

I simply explained where some of the variation you are seeing is coming from, and why I understand your comments.

Maybe I didn't make it clear, but when I mentioned using the homozygous bulls, I was talking about why it works in other places that don't have all the same genes causing problems that you folks do in the South.


I understand completely that when you use the bulls I mentioned, you will get variation in colors on the Tigerstripe cow. That why I made the point. It comes from the TIGERSTRIPE cow, NOT the crossbred bull. The comment was about how to get uniformity in non-Brahman influenced herds.

It doesn't mean you folks are doing it wrong. You are just working with the tools you have, I understand that. However, if you begin to understand what causes the problems, maybe you can build some tigerstripes w/o all the genes causing the problems.


Mate them, make F2's and sort for uniformity, you will have a Tigerstripe, without the stripes. Of course, I know better than that, too. Folks won't buy Tigerstripes w/o stripes. And that, caustic is a perception problem and nothing else.

Badlands

Thats the reason the majority of my girls are 3/4 herf and a 1/4 brimmer is for the consistant calf crop. Look in my hiefer lot you would think I am running reg Herf's everyone is 3/4.
Put a char bull on them and bam high yellow baldies the entire crop.

 

[Badlands]

Right caustic, it makes sense.

So, you already had done something about the problem and had a good understanding of what was causing it-the cow side.

It's just easier to blame the bulls, perhaps. ;-)

Badlands

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Hey now, caustic, I didn't imply anything about the Southerners having it "wrong".

I understand completely that the Brahman influence has been vital.

I simply explained where some of the variation you are seeing is coming from, and why I understand your comments.

Maybe I didn't make it clear, but when I mentioned using the homozygous bulls, I was talking about why it works in other places that don't have all the same genes causing problems that you folks do in the South.


I understand completely that when you use the bulls I mentioned, you will get variation in colors on the Tigerstripe cow. That why I made the point. It comes from the TIGERSTRIPE cow, NOT the crossbred bull. The comment was about how to get uniformity in non-Brahman influenced herds.

It doesn't mean you folks are doing it wrong. You are just working with the tools you have, I understand that. However, if you begin to understand what causes the problems, maybe you can build some tigerstripes w/o all the genes causing the problems.


Mate them, make F2's and sort for uniformity, you will have a Tigerstripe, without the stripes. Of course, I know better than that, too. Folks won't buy Tigerstripes w/o stripes. And that, caustic is a perception problem and nothing else.

Badlands

Then you would not be capitalizing on the hybred vigor you get from the F1. your right about the perception of the tiger stripe. folk tend to look at the color over the cow because of it

 

[TxStateCowboy]

since we're on topic of f1 tigers/etc.

small herd of 16 herf cows with hudgins sired f1 calves. off of a hudgins family member ranch. 6 or so calves on the ground rest is spring calvers. he's asking $1100/hd. Says solid mouth on his ad so they probly aint young'ns.

Gonna go take a look at the group. good deal what do ya'll think?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

since we're on topic of f1 tigers/etc.

small herd of 16 herf cows with hudgins sired f1 calves. off of a hudgins family member ranch. 6 or so calves on the ground rest is spring calvers. he's asking $1100/hd. Says solid mouth on his ad so they probly aint young'ns.

Gonna go take a look at the group. good deal what do ya'll think?

sound's a little high for older herf. cows might not have to many.. if any producing years left. now if they were bred hudgin brahamn/herf F1 cows that would pack a little more punch

 

[Caustic Burno]

Right caustic, it makes sense.

So, you already had done something about the problem and had a good understanding of what was causing it-the cow side.

It's just easier to blame the bulls, perhaps. ;-)

Badlands

Not entirely correct put a crossbred bull back on the cows your right back where you started. Like I said you can get two many varibles in the woodpile. Putting together a consistant calf crop in a crossbred operation requires a lot of time and thought other than a homo black bull. You can't go to the salebarn and pick up 3/4 Herf 1/4 brimmers from good growth Herf lines. It is a total crap shoot on retaining heifers and cost more than buying replacements. This didn't matter twenty years ago and I will never get there. I will always have my box of crayolas and I will have a more consist bunch as well.

 

[Badlands]

Alacowman,

So what if I'm not capitalizing on F1 hybrid vigor? I use F1's (capitalizing) to make F2's that are more valuable to the market.

I only lose some of the F1 vigor, not all of it. In the first generation, like I suggested, I might lose 15% of maximum. So, I'm still at 85% of maximum. If I then cross to some other breed, the calves are still maximum.

Badlands

 

[BRG]

What everyone is saying is just fine and dandy, but more and more feedlots are making the statements that the cattle they want to buy needs to be at least 50% angus blood and 25% to 50% continental. Pretty tough to have all these crosses and still have what the feedlots(our buyers) want.

I say raise what your market dictates. If it is F1 Red Angus and Charlais, make them, if you get steer price for selling replacement heifers with straight red or black angus, then raise that. Just make sure you have a plan and stick to it, don't chase one breed and then switch to another because they are hot. That is a good way to mess it all up.

Like it or not, but the feeders and packers are our customers, and if you don't raise what they want, they won't pay as much for yours as the guy who has what they are looking for.

 

[Aero]

Like it or not, but the feeders and packers are our customers, and if you don't raise what they want, they won't pay as much for yours as the guy who has what they are looking for.

retain interest and it all changes

 

[Caustic Burno]

What everyone is saying is just fine and dandy, but more and more feedlots are making the statements that the cattle they want to buy needs to be at least 50% angus blood and 25% to 50% continental. Pretty tough to have all these crosses and still have what the feedlots(our buyers) want.

I say raise what your market dictates. If it is F1 Red Angus and Charlais, make them, if you get steer price for selling replacement heifers with straight red or black angus, then raise that. Just make sure you have a plan and stick to it, don't chase one breed and then switch to another because they are hot. That is a good way to mess it all up.

Like it or not, but the feeders and packers are our customers, and if you don't raise what they want, they won't pay as much for yours as the guy who has what they are looking for.

That might be there but not here my cross calfs brought more than the solid blacks on Sat the High yellow white faces brought more. The cheapest thing running through the barn here is Angus. Not slamming anyones breed its just fact, boogie has seen it also. Cattlemen here have woke up you are not going to get the pounds out of Angus in this enviroment.
The only hot black cow here is Brangus.

Ps the only Angus breeder I know of here has sold his Bulls and is running grey Brimmers on them cows those cals will bring a premium here.

 

[TxStateCowboy]

Have to agree w/caustic, in south texas angus bulls stand in the water and hide under trees 24/7 -they cain't stand the heat. brahma influence is the key to s. texas cattle.

 

[BRG]

In my previous posting, I was pretty much referring to Doc.

Caustic,
I know you need ear in the southern climate.

When I was talking angus, I was referring to both black and red.

Aero,
As far as retain interest in the cattle. that is great in a perfect world. But reality is, 99% of the cowboys don't want to, and don't have time to learn it either. They would just as soon sell off the cow or background for a little while and then sell. They want the cash and don't want to worry about the rest.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Alacowman,

So what if I'm not capitalizing on F1 hybrid vigor? I use F1's (capitalizing) to make F2's that are more valuable to the market.

I only lose some of the F1 vigor, not all of it. In the first generation, like I suggested, I might lose 15% of maximum. So, I'm still at 85% of maximum. If I then cross to some other breed, the calves are still maximum.

Badlands

don't recall saying you could'nt. im talking about the vigor of the F1 moma cow. just what kind of bull do you use to get F2'S anyway? because i can GET more calf out of a F1 bred to a strait cont bull than bred to a F1 bull of the same influance