Crossbreeding - AGAIN!

[ALACOWMAN]

sounds good. alot of folks work the bull side to death and forget the value of the moma. i don't won't to make excuses for my cow. i want her too be able to perform well with what ever bull i choose.

 

[ROCK-N-W]

I'm a counting on the new Black Angus bulls that I bought last year, to take me up to my goal, the sire to the bulls I purchased is the biggest Black Angus bull that I have ever seen,
So It's up to Stardust Max to hit that home run for me. Quess I failed to mention I also have about 15 head of Pure black angus, Also retained the hieffers off of them bred with red angus & Black brangus bull. Like I said working on it, Just wanted a little feed back good & bad

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I'm a counting on the new Black Angus bulls that I bought last year, to take me up to my goal, the sire to the bulls I purchased is the biggest Black Angus bull that I have ever seen,
So It's up to Stardust Max to hit that home run for me. Quess I failed to mention I also have about 15 head of Pure black angus, Also retained the hieffers off of them bred with red angus & Black brangus bull. Like I said working on it, Just wanted a little feed back good & bad

ROCK-N-W -

It is necessary in any business to establish goals, and it sounds as if you have done that. It would help all of us on the Forum to perhaps be of assistance in offering suggestions if we were to know the Genetics and Phenotype of your cow herd, not just that they are "Pure black angus". Also, could you be considerably more specific about the pedigree (Registration # would be a BIG help) and other particulars, such as the genetics of the heifers you have retained. With your location and with Red Angus and Brangus in the mix, it may be just fine for your location, however we don't know what your goals and purposes are for the herd you have now.

DOC HARRIS

 

[ROCK-N-W]

I'll look up the numbers on the bulls & cows, I know I have the papers on the red angus & black angus,but lost a lot of the earlier papers from flooding Hurricanes Francis, Jean & Wilma, Lost a lot of stuff...

Pretty much my goals are to get my calfs over that 500lb range at 6 mth weaning, keep my calving ease & increase my bw, keep a body condition of 5 or better on all stock, get a good price on what I sell. I have about a 95% percentage of calves breed. Except the year after Wilma, Bad flooded followed by drought conditions & now we are back in drought conditions. I do all I can but it does have it's effect on the cows. I am starting to see more uniformaty in that I have them dropping calves all in a two month period, so at least the sizes are close and I have equal #s of reds,blacks ,and creams, no more tigers in years.

 

[ROCK-N-W]

OK Doc,
This is what I have in the office on the two newest Bulls That I am counting on taking me that next step.
Black Angus Bull#1 Triple Max reg # 14890445 Sire RBRMAX82, DAM Tripple Eva.
Black Angus Bull#2 Stardust Max reg # 14890442 Sire RBRMAX82, DAM Stardust Annie
THe prevoius Red Angus used for three years and sold
Bull #1 OLC KING ROB REG #708044 SIRE LMAN KING ROB, DAM BECKTON MONA
BULL # 2 OLC KING ROB J167 REG # 708045 SIRE LMAN KING ROB DAM RAB BITTERROOT 6603
That's all I have with me at this time,

 

[DOC HARRIS]

ROCK-N-W -

Taking things in order - exceeding the 500# weaning weight, keeping calving ease and increasing the birth weight seems to be in order given the EPD's of the Angus bulls, estimating the BW of Stardust. Configuring optimal nutrition of both your pregnant heifers AND the post-calving of the heifers and calves through to weaning date is necessary. A body condition of 5 or better appears to me to be in order by knowing the pedigree of the Angus bulls, but varying an inch or two is significant if you expect to maintain that figure - which is not guaranteed, and rather variable - subject to functional traits of both heifers and sires. The price you will receive, as you know, is certainly not guaranteed, but with the Angus bulls you have here the possibilities are improved. Not knowing the Genetics OR the Phenotype of your Brangus, I have no way of estimating your ultimate results.

By timing the estrus periods of the cows, you can concentrate the calving periods to MUCH closer intervals, which will help in standardizing calf sizes at sale time. By using the Black Angus bulls, your color uniformity is stable, which will aid in your achieving a higher general appearance of the feeder calves. By retaining crossbred heifers from the Angus matings, and continuing the Black color matings, whether Angus or a Terminal breed of Black genes, you can increase your weaning weights considerably and keep your cow weights down (thereby your feed expenses) and enable you to increase your producing-cow NUMBERS and, therefore, more calves on the same acreage as you have now. Increased heterosis will result in more pounds on the scale and hybrid vigor - both positives.

I am sure that you are well aware of optimal nutrition requirements, along with total Mineral Supplementation to ALL individuals in your herd, however I am mentioning that factor to cover all bases in approaching the answer to your achieving your goals.

I hope this is a help. The NEXT herd bulls that you select, plan carefully to balanced the EPD's of the cow herd that you have at THAT time - as you have done with the one's that you have now. You have done a lot of planning about your future, and it seems that you are on the right track. My one bit of strong advice is - DON'T get your cow herd above an average of 1250# per cow. It is tempting because of the "pounds sell" syndrome, but there are many factors that dispell the problem of getting your brood cows too heavy.

DOC HARRIS

 

[aplusmnt]

Curious, never really hear anyone mentioning much about using Red Angus down south. Lots of talk about how the Black Angus do not hold up in the heat of Texas. How about the Red Angus could they not be used successfully say on Tiger Stripes, Brahman's or Herefords? Seems a Red Angus and Char might be a good cross for hot areas?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

don't know about texas, but red angus are gaining popularity around here. new breeders keep popp'in up in the ACA probably do to convincing famers their the same animal as the black other than color.

 

[ROCK-N-W]

Thanks for your input Doc I will learn from it and put as much as I can into practice, But ya have to be careful on them big words like heterosis, I actually went and looked that one up in the dictionary, IE: I'm not smarter than a fith grader Now that I know what it means you are right on.
But yes I do maintain liquid 24% w 5%fat or 32% mollases & minerals, salt blocks at every water hole, Also try to keep clean drinkin water in the water tubs because in our area lots of liver flukes in ditches,ponds & lakes. I round up twice a year & rotate my meds, use shots Ivermec+ on one round up & pour ons the next, also every other year I drench with Curatrim & Safeguard or as needed & check teeth. I cull cows having bad conditioning after calving, or no calve, and my standard rule of thumb is if I would'nt keep it for myself I won't sell it to another rancher & it goes to market.
As for heavy brood cows one of the orginal beefmasters that I culled for not carrying to term twice, weighted in at 1680 lbs at market, she was fat and breed but already losing two, I wasn't gonna take the chance. I do have one bit of advice to anyone reading this that will be putting on a Angus bull.You can learn from one of my mistakes, the Angus hieffers come in a lot younger than any of the ones with brah in them , too young if ya ask me, the breed very early, I lost two last year because I thought they were not old enough to be bred 9-12 mths, died calving just not enough frame to carry. By the way those Tigers stripes/brindles when you put a good bull on em they throw nice calves, make good moma's, I am getting solid reds and blacks from them and they drop every year like clock work & most of the time the calfs outwiegh my others by 40 lbs at weening. As for the red Angus in Florida I bought my bulls from a ranch in Lorida, FL called the Rafter T, they have a web site if you wanna look them up. The actual bulls I purchased we're from Texas. You will find my angus in the shade in the heat of the day or at the water hole, I rigged a shower at my Artiesian well, they will fight over it and stand in it for hours ,I have to make sure I cut it off after round ups or they will wash away the meds. Thanks Again Doc.

 

[aplusmnt]

don't know about texas, but red angus are gaining popularity around here. new breeders keep popp'in up in the ACA probably do to convincing famers their the same animal as the black other than color.

Seems like Red Angus are growing a lot more in our area also. We might be heading towards that whats hot shift Caustic is always saying will happen.

Seems like to me that Red Angus and Hereford F1 Cows might be a pretty nice combo. Maybe work in lots of different environments and work great with a variety of Bulls used as the third cross.

 

[IL Rancher]

We have about 36 that we bought out of Kansas 2 years ago.. They seem to get by on less than the black cows I have or the 3/4 and 7/8ths red angus (With rest being Herf) do.. Raise nice calves with some being baldies and some not.... You know, basically a red version of the Black Baldy.... One of two crosses I am thinking about for long term.. Other being a Tarentaise X Red Angus.. Little more maternal there but than I feel like I limit my terminal sire a bit if I want to stay a 1/2 Cont 1/2 British for our calves... Oh well, something for me to think about some more.

 

[dun]

Seems like to me that Red Angus and Hereford F1 Cows might be a pretty nice combo. Maybe work in lots of different environments and work great with a variety of Bulls used as the third cross.

You're right, they do.

dun

 

[aplusmnt]

If I could wave my magic wallet I think I would have all F1 Cows Red Angus x Hereford at the moment and put a Homozygous black Simmental bull on them for the current market around here and be able to go with either a Red Simmental bull or Charolais bull in future if market goes away from the black calves.

Probably end up with some nice keep able heifers out of that 3 cross also.

 

[VanC]

If I could wave my magic wallet I think I would have all F1 Cows Red Angus x Hereford at the moment and put a Homozygous black Simmental bull on them for the current market around here and be able to go with either a Red Simmental bull or Charolais bull in future if market goes away from the black calves.

Probably end up with some nice keep able heifers out of that 3 cross also.

We think alike.

 

[Wewild]

I think we'll keep our Red Lim's and use what is needed to meet the market.

 

[SCRUBS620]

If I could wave my magic wallet I think I would have all F1 Cows Red Angus x Hereford at the moment and put a Homozygous black Simmental bull on them for the current market around here and be able to go with either a Red Simmental bull or Charolais bull in future if market goes away from the black calves.

Probably end up with some nice keep able heifers out of that 3 cross also.

OK what do you get when you cross a Red Angus and a Herford? Would the calves be solid red with a white face or would they have white elsewhere on them?

 

[dun]

OK what do you get when you cross a Red Angus and a Herford? Would the calves be solid red with a white face or would they have white elsewhere on them?

The first cross is usually red with a white face. There may be other white on the feet, legs, belly and tail switch. The reson for the "usually" in the first part is because you may get a brockle or mottled face instead of a white face. Generally there isn;r any red on the back of the beck. Around here calves mnarked like that are referred to as "red neckers".

dun

 

[novatech]

Curious, never really hear anyone mentioning much about using Red Angus down south. Lots of talk about how the Black Angus do not hold up in the heat of Texas. How about the Red Angus could they not be used successfully say on Tiger Stripes, Brahman's or Herefords? Seems a Red Angus and Char might be a good cross for hot areas?

Just an observation. Reds seem to be gaining in popularity. There have been a lot of red angus showing up around my area lately. There is even one pasture that is about half red and half black. I really don,t have a clue what is going on there.

Around here most people prefer the braford F1. They use the angus for the terminal calf. That way they get 50% angus on there feeders which will bring more money.

Brahman is used more often than Char. for F1 production as there is more gain in heterosis, although Char. may give one a better quality meat.

 

[ROCK-N-W]

There is a ranch here in S FL that has a program mixing 1/2 Red Angus X with 1/2 Braford . I believe they call them Arrab's.
I think It's Adams Ranch, some of you may have herd of them, they have been around a long time..
They calfs look alot like my Red angus crosses.

 

[Caustic Burno]

If I could wave my magic wallet I think I would have all F1 Cows Red Angus x Hereford at the moment and put a Homozygous black Simmental bull on them for the current market around here and be able to go with either a Red Simmental bull or Charolais bull in future if market goes away from the black calves.

Probably end up with some nice keep able heifers out of that 3 cross also.

IMO you almost got it right just substite red Brangus. To this day the only thing I have seen that can grow off a crossbred calf as well is a Tiger.