Crossbreeding - AGAIN!

[ga. prime]

Excellent thread going here. I'm keenly interested in the crossbreeding question. I totally agree with CB about the tigers. I'm still living that dream. I'd like some examples(particularly from Badlands and DOC HARRIS) of what Cross or Composite breed cows bred to what pure or composite bull they believe would result in max. heterosis and growthiness from birth to weaning. This with an eye toward everything going to the feedlot with nothing retained.

 

[Badlands]

Hey now, caustic, I didn't imply anything about the Southerners having it "wrong".

I understand completely that the Brahman influence has been vital.

I simply explained where some of the variation you are seeing is coming from, and why I understand your comments.

Maybe I didn't make it clear, but when I mentioned using the homozygous bulls, I was talking about why it works in other places that don't have all the same genes causing problems that you folks do in the South.


I understand completely that when you use the bulls I mentioned, you will get variation in colors on the Tigerstripe cow. That why I made the point. It comes from the TIGERSTRIPE cow, NOT the crossbred bull. The comment was about how to get uniformity in non-Brahman influenced herds.

It doesn't mean you folks are doing it wrong. You are just working with the tools you have, I understand that. However, if you begin to understand what causes the problems, maybe you can build some tigerstripes w/o all the genes causing the problems.


Mate them, make F2's and sort for uniformity, you will have a Tigerstripe, without the stripes. Of course, I know better than that, too. Folks won't buy Tigerstripes w/o stripes. And that, caustic is a perception problem and nothing else.

Badlands

Then you would not be capitalizing on the hybred vigor you get from the F1. your right about the perception of the tiger stripe. folk tend to look at the color over the cow because of it

To get F2's, you use F1's, that is the definition of an F2. Were not on the same page. I was refering to making F2's to get rid of some of the unifomity issues surrounding Tigerstripes. I'm not worried about them losing a bit of performance to do it because they are still more productive than either parent, even if heterosis is not mazimized.

Badlands

 

[ALACOWMAN]

with the brahman F1 tiger or not it wont be from breeding her to a crossed bull of the same breeds for a true F2. wont be nothing but leather and bones. you cant pump enough feed in

 

[ALACOWMAN]

:cboy:

 

[ALACOWMAN]

:cboy:

 

[novatech]

Brahman X herford = F1 = great moma And two of the most feed efficient breeds one can get.
F1 braford X contenintal (preferablely charlet) = terminal = profit
Color? Who cares, they are red inside, and eat pretty good to.

Feed lots love em.

Feed efficiency is what all seedstock and replacement heifer producers need to look at. We need to start producing more feed efficient cattle in order to help our feedlot busnisses stay in business.

I do think Murry Grays deserve a closer look.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Brahman X herford = F1 = great moma And two of the most feed efficient breeds one can get.
F1 braford X contenintal (preferablely charlet) = terminal = profit
Color? Who cares, they are red inside, and eat pretty good to.

Feed lots love em.

Feed efficiency is what all seedstock and replacement heifer producers need to look at. We need to start producing more feed efficient cattle in order to help our feedlot busnisses stay in business.

I do think Murry Grays deserve a closer look.

retained F1's momas can out perform their F2's in certain area's where theres intence heat, flys,keep milking during summer slump for those terminal calves.. calving ease

 

[Badlands]

ALACOWMAN,

I'm not concerned about your wording.

A question though.

Why would a Tigerstripe over a Tigerstripe get discounted more and perform that much worse than a Tigerstripe. I don't want to mess around with F1, F2, etc, but I think you will understand that this is the question I am asking. Why is the F1 that much better than the F2?

I realize that if you put a Brahman over the Tigerstripe, you will get a largely Brahman look to them, but if a person is selective with the Tigerstripes and picks for tight sheaths, good conformation, "non-Brahman" look, why would the F2 come out so bad like you suggest?

Now, I realize that I am adding to the point as I go, but I guess I had it in mind to start with, ie I wouldn't use F1's to make F2's if I didn't like the F1's first. You get my drift.


Badlands

 

[ALACOWMAN]

thanks badland i appreciate that. the thing with the brahman F1. they are pretty much a one shot deal. although they can produce a better doing calf for the feedlot.. which i doubt due to much brahman influance especialy out west.. they are more suited for a three way cross to get the most bang for your buck . you take a man that raises F1s for the public he can make a ton on his replacemants but the steers take a beating. his heifers take up there slack and then some .but if you send a calf to the barn with the same amount of ear then you will get docked hard even if it would do better on the lot . so you want the ear on the moma but the calf with no more than a 1/4. the f2 steer will look pretty much like the moma and thats were youll take a beating. hope that answered some of it.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

:cboy:

 

[alftn]

F1 X F1 would give F2 , But your calves could be anything...I always thought this is not what you want to do...F1's X a fixed breed (pure ) get your hybrid vigor and uniformity...In mid south (not texas) any brimmer cattle will take a hit at the sale barn...and black is still what they want ....

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Excellent thread going here. I'm keenly interested in the crossbreeding question. I totally agree with CB about the tigers. I'm still living that dream. I'd like some examples(particularly from Badlands and DOC HARRIS) of what Cross or Composite breed cows bred to what pure or composite bull they believe would result in max. heterosis and growthiness from birth to weaning. This with an eye toward everything going to the feedlot with nothing retained.

ga. prime -

As with EVERY selection of seedstock, you can (and SHOULD ) consider EVERY factor of the Genotype and Phenotype for which you are considering - and ALL of the EPD's and functional body structure traits relating to either Maternal or Terminal goals for which you are striving! That being said, and knowing that you are focusing on Terminal ONLY and not maternal retention - this narrows the choices a little, HOWEVER - heifers can be retained from ANY high quality program if they are geared to the overall goals which you have in mind.

Disclaimer: Having never been involved with Brahma-type cattle, I have no first hand experience to which to relate, therefore I won't attempt to give an opinion of something with which I have had no personal contact. Brahma, Tiger Stripes, 'Rain-draining' ears, and heat and insect tolerance are not only desirable in a Southern U.S. program, but for a profitable operation - absolutely NECESSARY! You are probably more familiar and acquainted with those traits and how they perform in your area than I would be.

The primary purpose of crossbreeding is to provide advantageous traits from two sources - Heterosis (Hybrid Vigor) and Complimentarity (capitalizing on blending the desirable characteristics from different breeds and combining them into one crossbred animal). As I continue to Holler, and Yell and Shout and Jump up and down and Scream about ALL BREEDING INDIVIDUALS being better than they can possibly be - I am hopeful that my philosophy about HIGH QUALITY seedstock penetrates all of the subconscious minds of all who read or hear me! High Quality pertains to Purebred Herds, Crossbred herds, Mediocre Herds, Crummy Herds, Lousy Herds, and Herds that should not even be a Herd. Every Herd should strive to be improved EVERY TIME they acquire a new Bull or a new Female! EVERY SINGLE TIME!! Regardless of the breed or combination of breeds!

With that thought off my chest - I will express a few suggestions regarding your question(S)!

EVERY crossbred breeding animal should have Angus (Black or Red) in their pedigree! The important "Moderate to High Heritability" traits are found in these two breeds in abundance. Some of them are: Milk production, Post-weaning Daily gain, post-weaning daily feed consumption, Final Feedlot weight, Yearling Weight, Ribeye area, Fat thickness, Marbling score, and Tenderness score. "Moderate" Heritability traits are important also. Some of those are: Weaning confirmation score, post-weaning daily gain on pasture, feed conversion, Slaughter confirmation, Dresssing percentage, and percentage of retail product. Other breeds have these traits in their genetic transmissible characteristics, also, and that is why crossbreeding is able to combine the higher heritable characteristics in a Complimentarity manner and combine that with Hybrid Vigor!

After solidifying the above mentioned traits, the next considerations MUST include Growth and Carcass traits for bull selection, and NO considerations for maternal traits,
as you are retaining nothing - as per your criteria. Therefore, my recommendations specify a THREE-BREED CROSS encompassing Black or Red Angus X Gelbvieh Females bred to either Registered Charolais or Simmental Bulls (Continental Breeds). As you will be a Composite "USER" (Commercial producer), it is important to use registered (Purebred) Bulls of whatever breed you decide upon in order to maintain high Heterosis traits throughout the continuing Rotational system. My reasons for having Gelbvieh in the female mix is because that breed is closer to being genetically similar to Angus than some of the larger frame Terminal (Continental) breeds such as Charolais, Simmental, Maine-Anjou, and Limousin. My focus is to attempt to keep our mature cow weight down to around 1250#, and Gelbvieh is optimal for that trait among the Continental breeds.

Not to disparage Herefords or Shorthorns, they can also be used in the British female cross combination, but I prefer the Angus option for the Marbling and Calving Ease traits, but you specified ". . .from birth to weaning", but we have to consider the characteristics past weaning for the maximum heterosis and growth extending into the feedlot from the Terminal point of view.

Even if you were to expand your operation to the point of developing and using Composite Bulls as breeders in your crossbreeding system, using Purebred original seedstock to develop this line would be absolutely imperative to continue to elevate your Heterosis percentage levels.

The judicious use of Artificial Insemination or Embryo Transfer can accelerate the process and enable one to utilize the BEST BULLS available, which should be mandatory. If you plan to retain any of the cross bred heifers, the use of the BEST BULLS available should be a LAW! If you don't use the best genetics throughout, you are losing heterosis and spinning your wheels!

This type of three-breed crossbreeding planning should be used with herds of 150 - 200 brood cows or less and significant pasture or range, as any larger programs will result in very complicated pasture rotation and management protocols. Increased in-breeding complications if replacements are retained can be alleviated by the maintaining of a large cow herd (500 cows or more) - more management decisions. Even with your smaller Three-Breed operation, I would recommend that you change your seedstock within the composite formula that you decide to use if you are pleased with the results.

Assuming that you are not keeping heifers back from this mating system, you can use different Terminal bulls if you so desire after observing the results of the first F1 crossings. Observing F1 results is a matter of KNOWING what you are seeking, and being able to literally hand-select your ideal crosses in the future!

ga-Prime, I am sure that you can easily see how the management of even as simple a program as this is can very quickly become a nightmare without proper advanced planning and thought.

These are some of my thoughts regarding the possibilities of your "Heterosis and Growthiness From Birth to Weaning" crossbreeding undertaking. The CRITICAL factors to bear in mind throughout any breeding plan is that you must use HIGH quality seedstock, and follow a management plan which is compatible with your environment.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Badlands]

It is easier if you use Angus (Red or Black), but you don't have to. High marbling Herefords or good Non-Appendix Shorthorns will work just as well.

However, if you are selling at weaning, you can add $ by making them black, which as you know is a marketing strategy, rather than a principle based on any sound reasoning.

I still recommend using a red cow and putting a black bull over her for the terminal calves, unless you use a Charolais bull, then you probably want a black cow.

Which breeds? It varies with the environment, your marketing ability, etc.

It is nice to have a shot on Continental in the cowherd as that brings early puberty and more fertility, so you could do well with a Hereford/Simmental or Hereford/Gelbvieh or Hereford/Tarentaise (my favorite) cross cow and terminal sire her to most Angus big REA Black Angus bull. If the Angus bull has 80 pounds of YW EPD or more, those calves will grow right there with average Simmental and Gelbvieh of today.

I think Angus bulls are underutilized as terminal bulls today. Most people are still hung up on how fertile they are, but they really aren't all that great, and anybody with pure Angus and pue Gelbvieh or Simmental in the same herds will confirm that. They will also confirm that Angus grow as good as the Continentals and mature to just as large a size. So, why not use Angus as terminal sires? You get adaptability in the cowherd by keeping them red, and you get to sell Angus sired Black calves for all sorts of premiums, plus with the Continental influence from the cow, they WILL make more CAB than straight Angus.

Badlands

 

[ALACOWMAN]

from my experiance the best place for a f1 brahman/herf bull is in the rodeo arena.

 

[novatech]

It is easier if you use Angus (Red or Black), but you don't have to. High marbling Herefords or good Non-Appendix Shorthorns will work just as well.

However, if you are selling at weaning, you can add $ by making them black, which as you know is a marketing strategy, rather than a principle based on any sound reasoning.

I still recommend using a red cow and putting a black bull over her for the terminal calves, unless you use a Charolais bull, then you probably want a black cow.

Which breeds? It varies with the environment, your marketing ability, etc.

It is nice to have a shot on Continental in the cowherd as that brings early puberty and more fertility, so you could do well with a Hereford/Simmental or Hereford/Gelbvieh or Hereford/Tarentaise (my favorite) cross cow and terminal sire her to most Angus big REA Black Angus bull. If the Angus bull has 80 pounds of YW EPD or more, those calves will grow right there with average Simmental and Gelbvieh of today.

I think Angus bulls are underutilized as terminal bulls today. Most people are still hung up on how fertile they are, but they really aren't all that great, and anybody with pure Angus and pue Gelbvieh or Simmental in the same herds will confirm that. They will also confirm that Angus grow as good as the Continentals and mature to just as large a size. So, why not use Angus as terminal sires? You get adaptability in the cowherd by keeping them red, and you get to sell Angus sired Black calves for all sorts of premiums, plus with the Continental influence from the cow, they WILL make more CAB than straight Angus.

Badlands

In the south many producers do just that.
F1 braford x angus may not give much in heterosis but it certainly will produce some darn good meat.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

It is easier if you use Angus (Red or Black), but you don't have to. High marbling Herefords or good Non-Appendix Shorthorns will work just as well.

However, if you are selling at weaning, you can add $ by making them black, which as you know is a marketing strategy, rather than a principle based on any sound reasoning.

I still recommend using a red cow and putting a black bull over her for the terminal calves, unless you use a Charolais bull, then you probably want a black cow.

Which breeds? It varies with the environment, your marketing ability, etc.

It is nice to have a shot on Continental in the cowherd as that brings early puberty and more fertility, so you could do well with a Hereford/Simmental or Hereford/Gelbvieh or Hereford/Tarentaise (my favorite) cross cow and terminal sire her to most Angus big REA Black Angus bull. If the Angus bull has 80 pounds of YW EPD or more, those calves will grow right there with average Simmental and Gelbvieh of today.

I think Angus bulls are underutilized as terminal bulls today. Most people are still hung up on how fertile they are, but they really aren't all that great, and anybody with pure Angus and pue Gelbvieh or Simmental in the same herds will confirm that. They will also confirm that Angus grow as good as the Continentals and mature to just as large a size. So, why not use Angus as terminal sires? You get adaptability in the cowherd by keeping them red, and you get to sell Angus sired Black calves for all sorts of premiums, plus with the Continental influence from the cow, they WILL make more CAB than straight Angus.

Badlands

In the south many producers do just that.
F1 braford x angus may not give much in heterosis but it certainly will produce some darn good meat.

that cross dont have to give heterosis it use's it to your advantage. your not losing you gain. the benefits in the calf.

 

[MikeC]

In the south many producers do just that.
F1 braford x angus may not give much in heterosis but it certainly will produce some darn good meat.

This is what is called "Breed Complimentarity", uniquely different from "Heterosis", but should be employed in any crossbreeding system.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

In the south many producers do just that.
F1 braford x angus may not give much in heterosis but it certainly will produce some darn good meat.

This is what is called "Breed Complimentarity", uniquely different from "Heterosis", but should be employed in any crossbreeding system.

spoken like a feller with a education ;-)

 

[ga. prime]

Thanks for the well reasoned responses to my query, DOC and Badlands. DOC, you probably are familiar with similar sales as the Tifton HERD sale coming up April 17. Heifers are given reproductive tract maturity scores, pelvic area taken, WDA, frame score, and so forth and AI bred to a low bw Angus bull for fall calving(this year to a bull called Mytty In Focus.) The reason I'm saying all this is that a person could go there and buy made to order heifers. Sim-Ang, Gelb-Ang, Char-Ang, Brangus, etc. From that point, get youself a terminal bull and you're in business for the long haul without having to have several pasture areas. You could do it with any number of heifers great or small. What say you?

 

[Badlands]

I like cows and watching them grow, mature, and raise their calves.

That is me. I realize that there are more ways to skin a cat.

If you have access to good quality replacement females for reasonable prices and don't want to mess with heifer development, then it sounds like you have a winner.

If you want to go strictly terminal, you could put a Charolais bull on any of the mentioned cows.

Or you could put a Black Simmental over the Angus/Gelbvieh cross cows, or opposite.

Or, you could put a Balancer over the SimmAngus females (or vice versa) and sell the females there next year while still kicking butt on the steer calves.

Like I said, if you are happy with the quality for the price, the you really have it made with a deal like that.

Good luck buying!

Badlands