Cow Longevity

[GoWyo]

I have kept bull prospects and heifer prospects as the last calf from some old favorite cow a couple times. The last one, the bull calf did not pass semen test and sometimes the heifers won't breed. A calf from a great cow that is well past her prime sometimes just isn't a very good calf.

 

[Silver]

I'm not saying you have to do it or anything else. But I am saying that if someone isn't pushing for longevity by keeping older, productive cows then longevity will decrease. If it isn't a survival advantage to be productive, and a trait that's being selected for, then that trait will become less common in the greater gene pool.

So if it's illogical to you then maybe I said it badly so you didn't understand. I'm sure others here, especially those that understand the advantages to retention of long lived, productive cows do understand. And yeah... there is a basis in fact.

My customers were buying my product because they got better results, and they paid more for them because they made more money. The results prove out.

Well we can certainly compare herds and herd reputation it that tends to get classless IMO.

I'll try to simplify this. Keeping cows to failure is a bad plan for anyone. Keeping cows that are proving themselves to a reasonable age is a good idea. Cows that calve on time every year into their teens AND produce excellent calves obviously have desirable longevity characteristics that are good to keep in the herd. Keeping these.cows until they fail doesn't prove anything but a failure on the part of the producer. Therefore it is best for the producer to move them along at an age where the cow has proven her longevity but before she fails.

 

[Silver]

I have kept bull prospects and heifer prospects as the last calf from some old favorite cow a couple times. The last one, the bull calf did not pass semen test and sometimes the heifers won't breed. A calf from a great cow that is well past her prime sometimes just isn't a very good calf.

I have a Y cow that has weaned 800 lb calves for years. This year the calf probably won't be much over 600 lbs. I don't feel too bad because she has been a very profitable cow, but it's obvious that this is her last calf and she really should have been replaced last fall by a heifer that would wean a 600 lb calf.

 

[simme]

I agree that an old cow that has been very productive will eventually start to decline and that decline can happen quickly. I am not one to be sentimental and decide that the cow needs to die and be buried on the farm. They still can make a contribution to the burger market.

But there may be an exception to the idea of culling before or when the decline starts. In purebred operations, there are some cows (think well known "famous" cows) that may still have more value than cull price. Some of those old cows can be bred and flushed and might still produce a few high dollar embryo's. The problems of old age like fertility, udders, milk quantity, milk quality, teeth - those are old age problems, not genetic problems. IF a person can get a few embryo's from the cow, they may be willing to pay more than slaughter price to take a chance on that. The embryo's still have the genetic value of the cow in her prime. That sometimes happen in seedstock herds and can pay off. "Always" rules might sometime be "most of the time" rules.

 

[Dave]

As long as cows last the 6-8 months from the time I buy them until the middle of August when they get shipped to the kill plant. That is all the longevity I need. And I don't keep any heifers.

 

[Katpau]

The calf gets all of its mitochondrial DNA from the cow. While I do believe in keeping heifers from older cows that have proven their worth, I believe there is some risk in keeping a heifer from a cow that is so old she has begun to decline in both production and condition. I believe I saw a study once that discussed some changes to the mitochondrial DNA that can occur with age. I am not positive on that, but I do know from experience that the heifers I retained from those good old cows when they were still in their prime, have turned out superior to those retained from later pregnancies. My own policy is to now cull at 12 or 13, or earlier if I notice any signs of old age, such as loss of condition. I am culling a 13 year old cow this year who has weaned 12 calves with a 112% weaning ratio. She was the second cow to calve this year, and is pregnant with a February 2024 calf, but she is too thin this fall and her 2023 calf weaned at only 103% of the herd when adjusted for age. (calf was 622 pounds at 197 days old) Her feet have really deteriorated in the last year and her teeth are no doubt failing. In spite of her past production, it was an easy decision to cull. Especially since I have several good daughters kept from when she was younger.

 

[Ebenezer]

The prior calves from a old cow can tell you her real value in one way: can she transmit the goodness that causes me or you to keep her around. That is always the illusive issue: good cow or good cow that transmits? I wish that there was a way to know ahead of time.

 

[Travlr]

I have kept bull prospects and heifer prospects as the last calf from some old favorite cow a couple times. The last one, the bull calf did not pass semen test and sometimes the heifers won't breed. A calf from a great cow that is well past her prime sometimes just isn't a very good calf.

That's especially true if you are keeping a cow past her ability to maintain condition.

If her past calves are 600 pounds at weaning and the last one is 500, then it's probably not time to breed her one last time to try for a heifer to replace her.

 

[Travlr]

The calf gets all of its mitochondrial DNA from the cow. While I do believe in keeping heifers from older cows that have proven their worth, I believe there is some risk in keeping a heifer from a cow that is so old she has begun to decline in both production and condition. I believe I saw a study once that discussed some changes to the mitochondrial DNA that can occur with age. I am not positive on that, but I do know from experience that the heifers I retained from those good old cows when they were still in their prime, have turned out superior to those retained from later pregnancies. My own policy is to now cull at 12 or 13, or earlier if I notice any signs of old age, such as loss of condition. I am culling a 13 year old cow this year who has weaned 12 calves with a 112% weaning ratio. She was the second cow to calve this year, and is pregnant with a February 2024 calf, but she is too thin this fall and her 2023 calf weaned at only 103% of the herd when adjusted for age. (calf was 622 pounds at 197 days old) Her feet have really deteriorated in the last year and her teeth are no doubt failing. In spite of her past production, it was an easy decision to cull. Especially since I have several good daughters kept from when she was younger.

Yup, you have to have a good eye and a feel for the realities involved.

I bought knowing what I was getting and also knowing they were only going to give me so many calves, often one and done, before going back to the sale barn.

 

[wbvs58]

Same for bulls. Push them hard as young animals and you grow mass and weight. develop them a bit slower and you develop all parts including bone and ligaments at the same rate. For heifers there is the issue of excess fat in the udder. For bulls there is the issue of excess fat in the scrotum. But bigger is better and more is great so we keep seeing the same cycles. If you want sounder breeding stock and performance data, do performance work on steers and cull heifers that are peers to potential breeders. But that is not the American way. That's my experience.

I totally agree.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Both of you are trying to make a great point. There's wiggle room with both ideas.
I don't keep a cow until she "falls apart". But, if I have an old cow (or young) producing a calf every 12~ months AND holding great condition, she stays. I do not believe in "well, she's getting old, I'll let her slide and breed her next season".
But, the cost of replacement heifers is high and for someone that retains XX number of cows in the herd should keep a PROFITABLE cow for as long as she fits in with the requirements of the herd and stays in shape.
My herd "numbers" fluctuates with heifer sales. I don't just "ship" heifers. If I have too many head of cattle, I offer package deals that are hard to resist!! Or just offer more heifers at a lower price. Pricing is based on how much I want to keep her!

 

[Travlr]

Both of you are trying to make a great point. There's wiggle room with both ideas.
I don't keep a cow until she "falls apart". But, if I have an old cow (or young) producing a calf every 12~ months AND holding great condition, she stays.

Choosing the right wiggle at the right time is the entire question... and doing it well is where great results come from.

I'd rather buy 30 ten year old cows to raise replacement heifers from, averaging replacing them with ten year old cows every two years, than buy 30 five year old cows and retaining heifers from the cows that got culled at 6/7/8/etc and being replaced as they fail to breed or break down at younger ages.

The difference may not seem important, but the percentage of heifers that last longer as productive cows from the older cows will be greater than from the five year olds.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@Travlr - BUT - you are talking using CULL 5 year olds vs CULL 10 year olds. Not many sales have great 5 year olds in the sales - unless you buy out of a dispersal sale. Not saying there aren't good 5 year olds, but "most" in a sale are culls for a reason.
I understand what you are saying. No matter what - a cull is not NORMALLY going to give you a great replacement heifer. "Young" cull - they are probably a dud. "Old cull" probably because they aren't producing well any more.

 

[Silver]

I read an article somewhere where they compared what I think they called "high turnover" herds vs herds where cows were kept long. I think the high turnover herd sold cows at 5 years old. They made a case to show how this was more profitable than keeping cows longer. I think they were selling their cows as bred and capturing significant returns that way. I'm not interested in operating that way but I still think it's an interesting concept. I'll try to find the article.

 

[J Hoy]

I see that no one considered what was shown in this study as a factor that should be considered in livestock production. Maybe you should.

Redirecting

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

ugh - nothing to do with our conversation.

 

[Travlr]

@Travlr - BUT - you are talking using CULL 5 year olds vs CULL 10 year olds. Not many sales have great 5 year olds in the sales - unless you buy out of a dispersal sale.

No, I'm not. From my own experience and what I've done I'm talking about buying cull long bred 10 year olds as opposed to any group of average 5 year olds.

Not saying there aren't good 5 year olds, but "most" in a sale are culls for a reason.
I understand what you are saying. No matter what - a cull is not NORMALLY going to give you a great replacement heifer. "Young" cull - they are probably a dud. "Old cull" probably because they aren't producing well any more.

Yes, a lot of 5 year olds are there for a reason. I never bought them. But again, not the way I buy the older cows. I looked for old cows being sold simply because they are at the age the owners consider too old. Short and solid or broken mouth, but maintaining condition and otherwise perfectly healthy. Better cows than the 5 year olds. Sometimes privately bought, sometimes because I know the people selling and why they sell... and what kind of animals they have. I would be buying your culls, probably, and getting a calf or two out of them as long as they performed to my criteria. If you cull them too late for my uses I would look to others. Some people cull automatically due to age. Perfectly fine, productive cows... but too old for their personal preferences. Cows that produce more long lasting, productive daughters than the average if they are given a chance to.

I would often buy those cows and sell their daughters back to the guy I bought their mothers from.

 

[Silver]

Found it. Interesting read.

How long should you keep a cow?

Rethinking the value of your herd females can have a significant impact on your profit picture

www.beefmagazine.com

 

[simme]

Found it. Interesting read.

How long should you keep a cow?

Rethinking the value of your herd females can have a significant impact on your profit picture

www.beefmagazine.com

May all be correct, but that article made my head hurt. When he started the discussion about how the smaller young cows would be eating less and cheaper to keep than the 5-10 year old cattle - I sort of tuned out. The old thing about having small cows and making more money reminds me of advice from university experts who don't own many cattle. Then when i clicked on Wally's website, I see that he puts on training sessions for these ideas at $1000 to $1500 tuition per person.

He may be right. I might just be old, cranky and not open minded. For sure, I am guilty of at least 2 or 3 of those.

 

[Silver]

May all be correct, but that article made my head hurt. When he started the discussion about how the smaller young cows would be eating less and cheaper to keep than the 5-10 year old cattle - I sort of tuned out. The old thing about having small cows and making more money reminds me of advice from university experts who don't own many cattle. Then when i clicked on Wally's website, I see that he puts on training sessions for these ideas at $1000 to $1500 tuition per person.

He may be right. I might just be old, cranky and not open minded. For sure, I am guilty of at least 2 or 3 of those.

I agree completely, just thought it was an interesting take on things.