cow hocked

[Aaron]

Seems to me it is a classic "function and form" debate. Especially for commercial cattle if the "problem" doesn't cause a drop in production is it really a problem ? Seems that sometimes the "desired "form requirements are set to give us things that we can see and therefore select for/against.Just thoughts

This is about as close to the commercial man's thinking as I have seen so far. Used to see a lot of cow-hocked cattle in everyone's herd 20 years ago. Still do today, but not as much. The oldtimers didn't get in a huff about form, as long as it functioned well. A cow could have been a crippled-up bag of bones, but as long as she brought in a decent calf and got bred back, that is all that mattered. It's the younger guys that get all concerned about having a 'pretty' herd, myself included.

 

[Jake]

I heard the name Sitz mentioned, but you know guys who AI a lot it could be a whole ingredient list.

Very true, you never know what the cocktail is in a lot of herds. There are a reason I consider a lot of the AI angus bulls terminal.

 

[AllForage]

Seems to me it is a classic "function and form" debate. Especially for commercial cattle if the "problem" doesn't cause a drop in production is it really a problem ? Seems that sometimes the "desired "form requirements are set to give us things that we can see and therefore select for/against.Just thoughts

This is about as close to the commercial man's thinking as I have seen so far. Used to see a lot of cow-hocked cattle in everyone's herd 20 years ago. Still do today, but not as much. The oldtimers didn't get in a huff about form, as long as it functioned well. A cow could have been a crippled-up bag of bones, but as long as she brought in a decent calf and got bred back, that is all that mattered. It's the younger guys that get all concerned about having a 'pretty' herd, myself included.

Aaron thanks for that answer, it seems to me the line between a "commercial" guy and a "seedstock" guy has ben awfully blurred in the last 10 years or so. Commercial guys are AI'ing to the same stuff the seedstock guys are and vice versa. Then you through in the show stuff and I'm not sure how to have a real conversation anymore.

 

[dun]

The cricket legged issue for me is the lack of adequate area for a strong rear udder support and the diminished area for the udder without it being banged around with every step she takes.
May also have to do with the pins being too close together or the closeness may cause the cricket legs.

 

[inyati13]

Seems to me it is a classic "function and form" debate. Especially for commercial cattle if the "problem" doesn't cause a drop in production is it really a problem ? Seems that sometimes the "desired "form requirements are set to give us things that we can see and therefore select for/against.Just thoughts

This is about as close to the commercial man's thinking as I have seen so far. Used to see a lot of cow-hocked cattle in everyone's herd 20 years ago. Still do today, but not as much. The oldtimers didn't get in a huff about form, as long as it functioned well. A cow could have been a crippled-up bag of bones, but as long as she brought in a decent calf and got bred back, that is all that mattered. It's the younger guys that get all concerned about having a 'pretty' herd, myself included.

Aaron thanks for that answer, it seems to me the line between a "commercial" guy and a "seedstock" guy has ben awfully blurred in the last 10 years or so. Commercial guys are AI'ing to the same stuff the seedstock guys are and vice versa. Then you through in the show stuff and I'm not sure how to have a real conversation anymore.

Ryan, that is not a profound observation. I will speculate that producers know that. But it is how you tee that up that I wonder about. Are you lamenting the misdeeds of your observation? Or are you reporting them as if they are violations of the "code of the breeder"? Or both? I read all of your posts. It is no secret that you suffer a frustration for all the improper breeding that occurs in the beef industry. I would ask the follow-up question: What can you do about it? There are no public laws that regulate breeding. It is a free choice enterprise. I can breed my cattle how ever I want to. My neighbor has a bull that has feet so bad you can see the issues when you drive by at 45 mph. That is his business. I am not calling you out. And please do not stop your effort to "see a wrong and try to right it". I am only asking you to define what it is that you expect to accomplish. If you expect to accomplish nothing. Then you are a wise man. But that places your comments in the same category as the rest: Just Commentary.

Please carry on. You have a story. I want to be part of it. You got my attention!

 

[AllForage]

Ron, was not trying to be profound. I don't think that highly of myself. I know my place in this deal and its a small place.

Why don't we turn it around and you tell me the difference.

 

[inyati13]

Ron, was not trying to be profound. I don't think that highly of myself. I know my place in this deal and its a small place.

Why don't we turn it around and you tell me the difference.

Ryan, I did not think you were trying to be profound. My point is that we all know what is going on. I agree. You got guys like me who are not experienced breeders who are employing AI technology. In my case, I enjoy the practice of AI because of my background in science. I am exploring your motives; not to be mean but because it is interesting. Forgive me for pointing it out, but you throw a pretty high wave around here in expressing your frustration with breeding practices. I simply want to know why. You know I like you but sometimes I wonder if your dad spanked you too much when you were little because you were a bad little breeder. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Taurus]

Seems to me it is a classic "function and form" debate. Especially for commercial cattle if the "problem" doesn't cause a drop in production is it really a problem ? Seems that sometimes the "desired "form requirements are set to give us things that we can see and therefore select for/against.Just thoughts

This is about as close to the commercial man's thinking as I have seen so far. Used to see a lot of cow-hocked cattle in everyone's herd 20 years ago. Still do today, but not as much. The oldtimers didn't get in a huff about form, as long as it functioned well. A cow could have been a crippled-up bag of bones, but as long as she brought in a decent calf and got bred back, that is all that mattered. It's the younger guys that get all concerned about having a 'pretty' herd, myself included.

I completely agree with you on commercial man, they don't care for the looks as long as the cow is still functional, get bred on time and wean a marketable calf every year. After all they are not in breeding business. And the calves just goes directly to the feedlots anyways.

 

[Nesikep]

Nice cattle and their calves bring a better price at the sale barn.. My herd isn't perfect, but I'm starting to get some uniformity, and for the most part they're decent animals, have a good frame with meat over the boney bits. That is my motivation for improving the look of my cows and thus the calves they produce. I'm not anal about many traits that are not directly related to function, and even some that are.. Up until this year I was below capacity, so I could let some things slide.. I had a cow that never made big calves, at 8 years old she still doesn't.. Now her time is up, I have better (hopefully) animals to take her place.. Since I considered her substandard, I never kept a heifer from her.
My cattle are paddock cows too, so they don't need to do too much walking.. to me the angle the hoof meets the ground (and thus properly wearing it) is more critical to me than if they're cowhocked. I have paid a lot of attention to udders (guy thing right?), and I think my herd is certainly in the top 75% of commercial cow average.. To me that's balanced quarters and square set teats the size of MY thumb that hang right around the height of the cows navel when the udder is full.
I'd be quite happy if my entire herd looked and performed like Mega

 

[inyati13]

Nice cattle and their calves bring a better price at the sale barn.. My herd isn't perfect, but I'm starting to get some uniformity, and for the most part they're decent animals, have a good frame with meat over the boney bits. That is my motivation for improving the look of my cows and thus the calves they produce. I'm not anal about many traits that are not directly related to function, and even some that are.. Up until this year I was below capacity, so I could let some things slide.. I had a cow that never made big calves, at 8 years old she still doesn't.. Now her time is up, I have better (hopefully) animals to take her place.. Since I considered her substandard, I never kept a heifer from her.
My cattle are paddock cows too, so they don't need to do too much walking.. to me the angle the hoof meets the ground (and thus properly wearing it) is more critical to me than if they're cowhocked. I have paid a lot of attention to udders (guy thing right?), and I think my herd is certainly in the top 75% of commercial cow average.. To me that's balanced quarters and square set teats the size of MY thumb that hang right around the height of the cows navel when the udder is full.
I'd be quite happy if my entire herd looked and performed like Mega

You got clear goals and objectives. That is what I want and am not there yet. That is the point I was making in this thread and in the thread Kris started. Everyone of us does this a little differently. We should strive to employ good breeding practices. I applaud Ryan for his knowledge and interest. But the goals and objectives we establish for our herd sets us on a very personal mission. It is more about our "life" than the principles of breeding.

 

[AllForage]

Once again words are being put in my mouth and assumptions of what I think are being put forth. Having a clear conversation is very difficult if one wants to get philosophical and then back out and call it a hobby. i try to live life by principles.

I think if a guy has been breeding a herd for 30 years it's a fair question to ask why he does not use his own Bulls sometimes? I realize my cattle are an extreme example, but I am not suggesting that is the only way. I know the limitations and difficulties of what I am doing. You will never own anything genetically until one attempts to reduce heterosis and instill some prepotency.

A "purebred" guy is suppose to produce functional predictable cattle that the commercial man can use to capitalize on hybrid vigor with in my opinion. Anyone refute this?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Once again words are being put in my mouth and assumptions of what I think are being put forth. Having a clear conversation is very difficult if one wants to get philosophical and then back out and call it a hobby. i try to live life by principles.

I think if a guy has been breeding a herd for 30 years it's a fair question to ask why he does not use his own Bulls sometimes? I realize my cattle are an extreme example, but I am not suggesting that is the only way. I know the limitations and difficulties of what I am doing. You will never own anything genetically until one attempts to reduce heterosis and instill some prepotency.

A "purebred" guy is suppose to produce functional predictable cattle that the commercial man can use to capitalize on hybrid vigor with in my opinion. Anyone refute this?

not me, that's the way I've always seen it...

 

[3waycross]

Once again words are being put in my mouth and assumptions of what I think are being put forth. Having a clear conversation is very difficult if one wants to get philosophical and then back out and call it a hobby. i try to live life by principles.

I think if a guy has been breeding a herd for 30 years it's a fair question to ask why he does not use his own Bulls sometimes? I realize my cattle are an extreme example, but I am not suggesting that is the only way. I know the limitations and difficulties of what I am doing. You will never own anything genetically until one attempts to reduce heterosis and instill some prepotency.

A "purebred" guy is suppose to produce functional predictable cattle that the commercial man can use to capitalize on hybrid vigor with in my opinion. Anyone refute this?

My guess is that if you had asked him about it you would have got the same response as I did when I was touring the "Irish Black" herd and i asked him if they were trying to correct their foot problems...............end of tour thanks for stopping by.

 

[AllForage]

There is some spill over from another thread here.

Yes 3way the owner would not have taken it well.

All I am ever saying is why not increase the predictability a little more. What I have observed is AI only herds just increase the within breed heterosis (robbing some from the commercial guy) and never end up owning anything but their specific cocktail. Test your cattle by getting off the hybrid vigor ride and see what you actually have then fix what you want. If you want something else then outcross and fix again. If I sound crazy and ridiculous then I guess I am.

 

[dun]

The reason we only started using our own bulls in the past few years is kind of multifold. Hate having bulls around is probably number 1. Number 2 would be because we've concentrated on the female side of production. We have worked to develop prepotency in our cow herd. We've sold bulls to others but that has been based on their appreciation of our cow herd. Our last 5-6 bulls we've kept mainly because I don;t have the ability to AI as many cows as I used to. When we started in the seedstock side of things we decided to continue what we had done with our commercial herd, concentrate on the females. That is strictly a personal preference Just as others have concentrated on grass finished genetics, others on breed leading weaning weights etc.. I want cows that are pleasing to my eye, are structually sound, perform on our toxic fescue, are easy to handle, are productive and raise quiality calves. But I'm not as sophisticated as a lot of the producers on here. Didn;t finish high school and whatever success we've achieved has been through perseverence, studying and shear dumb luck.

 

[inyati13]

There is some spill over from another thread here.

Yes 3way the owner would not have taken it well.

All I am ever saying is why not increase the predictability a little more. What I have observed is AI only herds just increase the within breed heterosis (robbing some from the commercial guy) and never end up owning anything but their specific cocktail. Test your cattle by getting off the hybrid vigor ride and see what you actually have then fix what you want. If you want something else then outcross and fix again. If I sound crazy and ridiculous then I guess I am.

Ryan, you have never sounded crazy or ridiculous to me. I am not professing to be a breeder. I have not commented in this thread or the thread that Kris started on the principles, practices, theories or concepts of breeding. I am not a trained or experienced breeder. I do have a good education but that does not qualify me as a breeder. Nowhere did I disparage your knowledge or statements on breeding. I am not qualified to validate or invalidate your statements on breeding.

Look at your first post in the thread Kris started:

I have chuckled a few times on this thread. 1800-2000 pound cows, Really? I would surely hope WW's are high jeeeeesh.
Can we agree that is sarcastic? If so, can we agree that the sarcasm is coming from your frustration? Is jeeeeesh not an expression of frustration?

My focus is not on the principles of breeding. I only wish there was a small space in your heart for the appreciation that another producer might pursue his/her vocation with the goals and objectives that he/she covets. Your first message in that report Kris provided did not offend me. It just conveyed to me that you were disparaging Mr. Rondal Dawson who of his own free-choice is operating to fulfill his personal goals and objectives.

 

[3waycross]

There is some spill over from another thread here.

Yes 3way the owner would not have taken it well.

All I am ever saying is why not increase the predictability a little more. What I have observed is AI only herds just increase the within breed heterosis (robbing some from the commercial guy) and never end up owning anything but their specific cocktail. Test your cattle by getting off the hybrid vigor ride and see what you actually have then fix what you want. If you want something else then outcross and fix again. If I sound crazy and ridiculous then I guess I am.

This was somewhere around 6 or 7 years ago and I was listening to this fellow tell me that his bulls started at $5000 and he wanted 2500 apiece for 8 to 10 year old 1/2 blood cows. I was actually thinking of asking him to raise a tail or two to see if their asses were actually made of gold or he just thought they were...and to be fair they did have what i considered to be some pretty mediocre feet on them.

 

[inyati13]

After-thought:
Ryan, in the context of a forum, it is difficult to not over simplify. In regard to Misty Meadows Farm, he does have a herd bull. Actually, two, but he is planning on deciding between them. Misty Meadows has an outstanding reputation in the cattle industry. I profer this disclaimer that he should not be judged by the brief information that Kris and I provided on this forum.

I do agree with you: Kentucky is cow heaven!!!!

PS: Don't assume (and I am not characterizing that you have in the past or will in the future), that because a "breeder" is not employing the practices, methods or principles of breeding that you know to be "the state of the art" that they do not understand breeding. In example, Mr. Rondal Dawson of Misty Meadows Farm that you characterize as a "fluff and puff" operation, may know 10 times more about breeding than you do and is pursuing the vocation as he does because that "suits his fancy".

 

[KNERSIE]

To answer the original question, cowhocks aren't a bog deal on hard rocky ground and cows that are cowhocked can still live their full potential productive life, however when you run them in areas where the hooves would not naturally wear off like in the Kalahari Desert here, you have a mess on your hands. Even in that conditions you often see old bulls whose hooves had never been touched.

How the hooves wear off is directly affected by leg structure above the hoof and in the end we all want problem free cattle, structural soundness isn't a fancy point, it is a neccessity (for everyone selling seedstock), whether your environment reminds you of that or not.

 

[AllForage]

To answer the original question, cowhocks aren't a bog deal on hard rocky ground and cows that are cowhocked can still live their full potential productive life, however when you run them in areas where the hooves would not naturally wear off like in the Kalahari Desert here, you have a mess on your hands. Even in that conditions you often see old bulls whose hooves had never been touched.

How the hooves wear off is directly affected by leg structure above the hoof and in the end we all want problem free cattle, structural soundness isn't a fancy point, it is a neccessity (for everyone selling seedstock), whether your environment reminds you of that or not.

This was north bay area of CA, pretty easy soft ground. Owner said it was a easy place for cows except for the summer heat.