I have always casturated bull calves because they sell better and they are easier to take care of. I had someone tell me yesterday that they leave all their calves bulls and sell them as bulls. They said that they bring about the same as a steer beacuse even though they go for less cents per pound they weigh more so it comes out alright. If that is the case why don't people just cacsturate a week before the sale so that the calves weigh like a bull but sell like a steer? Which way do you guys prefere?
Bull Vs. Steer
- Thread starter kaneranch
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brokenmouth
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kaneranch":2ccx62is said:
whoever told you that needs to think things through a little better. that means they are putting more grass into an animal that will bring less per pound. not good business. the feedlots will castrate them anyway which means the buyers will dock you because the calves wont gain well on feed while theyre healing. you dont want to sell a fresh cut animal that hasnt healed yet. buyers arent dumb. some castrate them when theyre babies and some wait till they weigh a few hundred pounds. i do it whenever i catch them but try to get them as young as i can. not exactly a right or wrong way on that and you can make a good argument on either side. the thing to remember is the grass input. younger calves imo tend to take it better and heal well when they are still primarily on their mothers teat
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
If you waited til 1 week before selling - they would be really stressed out and lose any gain they had from being a bull vs steer gain.
Saying they make the same amount of money selling bulls, is sometimes a copout for good management.
Really depends (again) on your market. Some feedlots like to feed out bulls. If you have some in your area, than the price of bull calves could be decent.
Also depends on when you are selling them. Right off cows, preconditioned, backgrounded, finished.
I castrate all our male calves as soon as I decide they are not bull quality. Some of them are at birth, some at 2-4 months old, some at 6 months old. They are sold or put on a feedlot at about 8-9 months old.
Saying they make the same amount of money selling bulls, is sometimes a copout for good management.
Really depends (again) on your market. Some feedlots like to feed out bulls. If you have some in your area, than the price of bull calves could be decent.
Also depends on when you are selling them. Right off cows, preconditioned, backgrounded, finished.
I castrate all our male calves as soon as I decide they are not bull quality. Some of them are at birth, some at 2-4 months old, some at 6 months old. They are sold or put on a feedlot at about 8-9 months old.
preston39
Well-known member
=========kaneranch":lsbqpj1w said:
kaneranch,
Just for clarification..are you distinguishing castration from banding? Or inclusive of either?
I am on the fence on this issue. If a 500 lb. steer brings $1.25 that's $625. If you leave him intact and he gains another 20 lbs. but you get a nickle less for him (520# @ $1.20) you are grossing $624. I don't know exactly how much more a bull calf will weigh on average, but at the salebarn where we buy most of our feeders there is only about $.05 difference between bull and steer calves.
As for putting more grass into them and getting less per pound, you are doing that anyway. If you sell 300 lb. calves you are going to get more per pound than 600 lb. calves, but that doesn't mean it's more profitable.
As for putting more grass into them and getting less per pound, you are doing that anyway. If you sell 300 lb. calves you are going to get more per pound than 600 lb. calves, but that doesn't mean it's more profitable.
kaneranch":15k8mdh4 said:
Well, I guess I one of those mentioned as "poor cattle managers". We don't steer (oh I forgot you are not a real cattleman unless you cut, castrate, dock) our bulls before sale. We take them to market when they reach the area around 300lbs and regardless of age. We mainly do this to manage our forage and cow condition more so than price. If I had thousands of acres or unlimited funds to feed it might be a different story.
Our market doesn't seem to distinguish much between bulls and steers. I have included the latest report. When they run them in they just say "steer" regardless of if it is a bull or steer. I have watched many of these auctions and see no or very little difference in price here (qualified with "here"). I look at the apparent breed and condition and I don't see the buyers bidding less for bulls. Now, maybe I just miss it but that is my take on it. There are very few "here" that castrate unless they have commercial herds and it is in the contract to do so.
The only time I cut, dock, castrate, band, clamp is when someone wants to buy one of my bulls for a show steer or to raise for personal beef. Now with that said. I am not saying that if you are selling 100's or thousands of calves a year that you won't be loosing money by not cutting your bulls. What I am saying is at least in my case <100/year I don't see the benefit.
Feeder Steers and Bulls Medium and Large 1-2
Wt Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
150-180 164 210.00-235.00 224.27
200-240 218 180.00-205.00 192.56
250-280 267 165.00-190.00 176.52
300-340 312 148.00-166.00 157.63
350-385 366 130.00-146.00 137.75
400-415 407 130.00-140.00 135.13
450-465 453 120.00-128.00 122.62
500-530 524 108.00-112.00 108.59
550-570 562 110.00-112.00 111.00
655-670 660 106.00-111.00 109.31
BC
Well-known member
ChrisB said:
BC":wz8nrqgt said:
Sounds good if you have a big operation. I don't really have the time to put into them for all this additional work. We bale our own hay and it seems if I am not doing that then I am fixing fences, repairing equipment, repairing hurricane damage, doing maintenance on equipment. I just recently started offering some of my young heifer calves for sale as show or replacements. I have one being shown now and is doing so well I decided to pick some others to keep for this purpose. It seems there is quite a market here for good blooded replacements and show heifers. Other than that, the only time we mess with the calves is to worm them or haul them to market. Here is my 12 month old Char/Red Angus cross heifer.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
As I said - SOMETIMES its a copout. I also said, you may have a good market for bulls. I wasn't being insulting, didn't mean for you to take it that way.
Selling a few cattle at 300# doesn't make or break you if there is a $.05/lb difference. But if you sell 100 of them it's $1500 - IF THERE IS A PRICE DIFFERENCE. If there isn't, great, why bother.
I only sell about 10 steers at an average weight of 800#. So, IF there was ONLY a $.05/lb difference, that would be $40 more profit/per head for the few minutes it would take us to castrate. And if you implant, there is no advantage to leave them bulls.
Actually, I find my unimplanted steers do just as well as my bulls, because the bulls tend to spend too much time doing my heat detection (which is VERY helpful!)
Jeanne - Simme Valley":2n4v80sp said:As I said - SOMETIMES its a copout. I also said, you may have a good market for bulls. I wasn't being insulting, didn't mean for you to take it that way.
Selling a few cattle at 300# doesn't make or break you if there is a $.05/lb difference. But if you sell 100 of them it's $1500 - IF THERE IS A PRICE DIFFERENCE. If there isn't, great, why bother.
I only sell about 10 steers at an average weight of 800#. So, IF there was ONLY a $.05/lb difference, that would be $40 more profit/per head for the few minutes it would take us to castrate. And if you implant, there is no advantage to leave them bulls.
Actually, I find my unimplanted steers do just as well as my bulls, because the bulls tend to spend too much time doing my heat detection (which is VERY helpful!)
Jeannne, exactly my point. I think this all got started by someone (not you) saying you are loosing money if you don't castrate your bulls. I just don't agree with that statement. It is more like what you said. It is a matter of what your market is. In my case it don't amount to a hill of beans one way or the other. I just took a dozen bulls in Monday. I will see how they did maybe tomorrow. I didn't stick around.
sidney411
Well-known member
This is what I do:
I bring my cattle in the pens to work them anyway - it only takes us a couple of minutes to throw - cut - implant the bulls. I wean the calves @ 6 mts. If a intact bull calf is born @ 90lbs with 6 mts growth at 2 1/2 lbs per day it will weigh 547.50 lbs. An implanted steer should (and according to my records, does) weight in at the same weight.
547.50 lb bull @ $1.05 = $574.88
547.50 lb steer @ $1.10 = $602.25
Very rarely do I get paid $26.37 for a few minutes work.
(The implant cost about a $1)
I bring my cattle in the pens to work them anyway - it only takes us a couple of minutes to throw - cut - implant the bulls. I wean the calves @ 6 mts. If a intact bull calf is born @ 90lbs with 6 mts growth at 2 1/2 lbs per day it will weigh 547.50 lbs. An implanted steer should (and according to my records, does) weight in at the same weight.
547.50 lb bull @ $1.05 = $574.88
547.50 lb steer @ $1.10 = $602.25
Very rarely do I get paid $26.37 for a few minutes work.
(The implant cost about a $1)
jerry27150
Well-known member
right now there is not much difference in price & i have seen some bull calves go for as much as steers. i have also sold some that way in the past that brought .20 cents a lb less, so i don't risk it anymore
dcara
Well-known member
Below are links to a couple of papers on simialr subjets. Based on the data from these papers; and, the experiances mentioned on this board it would seem that the answer to whether it is more cost effective to casterate or not is............... drum roll please................It all depends. Surprise, surprise.
Where the main dependcies are:
1) Age at which the calves are sold since ADG and total weight is a funtion of age and is different for steer vs. bull.
2) Local market delta/dock for steer vs. bull.
3) Calf management techniques employed, (i.e. age and cost of castration, associated probability of increased medical costs, elapsed time after casteration to sell, type of feed, placement of bulls near cows which preoccupy the bulls from grazing, etc...
As is often the case, the answer to whether or not something is cost effective depends alot on how well the the specifics of the supply side operation match the local demand environment. IMHO.
Here's the links
http://ohioline.osu.edu/sc181/sc181_16c.html
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/research/2003rr/14/14.htm
Where the main dependcies are:
1) Age at which the calves are sold since ADG and total weight is a funtion of age and is different for steer vs. bull.
2) Local market delta/dock for steer vs. bull.
3) Calf management techniques employed, (i.e. age and cost of castration, associated probability of increased medical costs, elapsed time after casteration to sell, type of feed, placement of bulls near cows which preoccupy the bulls from grazing, etc...
As is often the case, the answer to whether or not something is cost effective depends alot on how well the the specifics of the supply side operation match the local demand environment. IMHO.
Here's the links
http://ohioline.osu.edu/sc181/sc181_16c.html
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/research/2003rr/14/14.htm
Farminlund
Well-known member
A look at this weeks pricing in my area:
Weekly State Graded Weighted Average for May 23, 2005
Feeder Cattle 735 (Steers 257; Heifers 332; Bulls 146)
Feeder Steers Medium and Large 1
Head Wt Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
2 300-400 375 150.00 150.00
14 400-500 455 139.00-147.00 146.48
53 500-600 554 134.50-137.00 136.67
25 600-700 641 122.50-124.00 122.62
1 700-800 720 112.50 112.50
Feeder Bulls Medium and Large 1
Head Wt Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
1 300-400 320 143.00 143.00
8 400-500 452 130.00-148.50 135.68
18 500-600 558 121.00-128.00 126.83
12 600-700 696 133.00 133.00
3-4 ave difference: 7.00/Cwt
4-5 ave difference: 10.80/Cwt
5-6 ave difference: 9.84/Cwt
6-7 ave difference: (10.38/Cwt) - not seen it like this before, maybe a typo as it bucks the trend of wt vs $ established by the other weight classes??? Above copied from our local sale barn - results published weekly.
Weekly State Graded Weighted Average for May 23, 2005
Feeder Cattle 735 (Steers 257; Heifers 332; Bulls 146)
Feeder Steers Medium and Large 1
Head Wt Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
2 300-400 375 150.00 150.00
14 400-500 455 139.00-147.00 146.48
53 500-600 554 134.50-137.00 136.67
25 600-700 641 122.50-124.00 122.62
1 700-800 720 112.50 112.50
Feeder Bulls Medium and Large 1
Head Wt Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
1 300-400 320 143.00 143.00
8 400-500 452 130.00-148.50 135.68
18 500-600 558 121.00-128.00 126.83
12 600-700 696 133.00 133.00
3-4 ave difference: 7.00/Cwt
4-5 ave difference: 10.80/Cwt
5-6 ave difference: 9.84/Cwt
6-7 ave difference: (10.38/Cwt) - not seen it like this before, maybe a typo as it bucks the trend of wt vs $ established by the other weight classes??? Above copied from our local sale barn - results published weekly.
Farminlund
Well-known member
The state of VA has weekly graded feeder sales in many locations across the state (the one I copied was Lynchburg, VA).
Each calf (<700#) is graded by employees of the state located at the sale barn. An amimal that is deamed not gradable for many reasons are sold individually via the acution process (you don't want this as you usually are giving up over 15/Cwt), those that grade are placed in graded pens & sold by the pen to the buyers (via auction). In some cases just 1 pen (thus no range) or multiple pens (range of prices).
So an amimal has a number of grading criteria - steer, bull, heifier; frame - Large, Med, Small (you don't want it graded small); fleshing - #1-3; & breed - angus, angus X, exotic, red, holtsein (I am not so sure on the various breeds) since our barn is like 90% angus or angusX (black baldies).
Hope this helps. My info came from: http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/RH_LS777.txt
Each calf (<700#) is graded by employees of the state located at the sale barn. An amimal that is deamed not gradable for many reasons are sold individually via the acution process (you don't want this as you usually are giving up over 15/Cwt), those that grade are placed in graded pens & sold by the pen to the buyers (via auction). In some cases just 1 pen (thus no range) or multiple pens (range of prices).
So an amimal has a number of grading criteria - steer, bull, heifier; frame - Large, Med, Small (you don't want it graded small); fleshing - #1-3; & breed - angus, angus X, exotic, red, holtsein (I am not so sure on the various breeds) since our barn is like 90% angus or angusX (black baldies).
Hope this helps. My info came from: http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/RH_LS777.txt
Farminlund":bviiwgy7 said:
That is a strange way of doing it. Ours are auctioned off individually. If you take 30 head of calves in from the same ranch, all are auctioned individually. So, you are saying that if your is graded the same as four other producers, they all are rounded up into one pen and auctioned as a pen? Not sure I like that idea.
Farminlund
Well-known member
I think I understand your reluctance; however, the graded sales have always brought more than non-graded sales (historically around here). So, although yours are being sold with others of like kind, size, weight, etc, the price is higher due to the uniformity & the quality that the grading system provides - thus the buyers like it better & pay more for graded calves. It is a little like a guarantee of quality & uniformity coupled with a much faster process (auctioning a pen at a time), so it seems that all sides are winners.
Farminlund":5rlnjz67 said:
Hey, if it brings better prices I am all for it. I just never heard of sales working like that. I sometimes wonder how mine get graded when I get the check. I took only two bulls (calves) one time. One was around 400 pounds the other closer to 300. When I got the check there were the right number of calves sold including the heifers I took but only one bull listed. Nothing in the 400 pound range either. They beat me out of a bull and about $200.
