bull signs

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Ok I read all the replies and was shocked that not a single "ring" him was mentioned. We raised many hand fed friendly bulls, (one would take walks with my Dad like a huge dog). All of them liked being scratched, rubbed etc. When they were young they would bob their heads and give little play butts and we scratched them and pushed their heads around etc. The point is that as they get older and bigger their play can really hurt you, maybe kill and even the nicest person and bull will at some point get a bit angry. And a bull only has to get angry with you once!!! ("geez and he was always a calm bull...." ever heard that before?) Taking all of this into consideration all our bulls were ringed with a chain. A good quality large ring with a length of chain that drags at least a foot on the ground when his head is normal heigth and just touches the ground with one link when his head is raised all the way up is what you need. As far as reaching through a gate or coral, I do not like it. won't get killed but some crushed fingers or a broken arm will ruin your day (always reach over the top). In short ring and chain him, then continue to pet, scratch spend time with him and never ever, even for a second let your guard down. Stay to his sides, do not place yourself between him and something else (always have air and room to your back and never him to it). Total fear and total trust are equally bad choices. Or and as far as the kick him in the nose, run at him yelling and waving and other "show him who is dominate" ideas, the first step in that plan is making sure that your health and life insurance is paid up to date. I have played with full grown bulls, pushing their heads, bumping, scratching etc. all of them were ringed with a chain and I always remembered the back rule. I had a neighbor who would put his daughter on his bull's back and lead the bull around the pasture by his halter. Nothing ever happend, but I never went near that bull. No ring, no chain, no me. good luck, Rick

> I have a black angus bull 16
> months old that sometimes when you
> get in front of him he starts
> bobbing his head up and down. He
> does not seam to be aggressive. He
> has knocked grain bucket out of my
> hand once and kind of pushed me up
> against barn once. Whats he
> telling me? Don't get to close? Or
> just rough playing. He eats right
> out of your hand. Any ideas?



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The deal is, usually it will work. The operative work is usually. Never turn your back no matter how gentle and tame he is, or how much respect(fear) he has for you. All it takes is once for him to get a wild her up his spout, and you can be in real trouble. The dumb things don;t know what they're going to do next, how can you expect to outguess them.

dun

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> I have a black angus bull 16
> months old that sometimes when you
> get in front of him he starts
> bobbing his head up and down. He
> does not seam to be aggressive. He
> has knocked grain bucket out of my
> hand once and kind of pushed me up
> against barn once. Whats he
> telling me? Don't get to close? Or
> just rough playing. He eats right
> out of your hand. Any ideas?

I think many of the responses you received to your question are good and I think everybody can appreciate calm and "gentle" bulls. But if I may throw in my two cents worth, I'd like to mention a few general rules that I was taught by my father and other "real" cattlemen which I think are well founded: No matter how tame you think the bull is you should never fully trust him. With apologies to the horned Hereford raisers, in general, don't keep any bull with uncut horns -- the place for horned bulls is in the rodeo bull riding events . Generally speaking, bovines do NOT like to be scratched on their head or anywhere about the face. Try not to stand directly behind a bull or close by to the side of his rear legs. Don't turn your back to a bull if you are anywhere near him. In pens and corrals always keep in mind a quick and readily available exit strategy and route. If a bull does something "bad" don't smack it on the nose or head with your hand, you may simply cause it to become enraged. Be especially cautious if you are out amongst the cattle and a bull is noticeably intent on breeding. If your bull "turns bad" and your operation is such that you have frequent on foot contact with your herd, just get rid of him -- there are too many "good" bulls available to put up with the risk associated with an ornery bull. Lastly, don't try to make a bull into a pet --- if you must pet or caress something get a dog, wife, husband, etc.!
 
I gues in my postings it sounded like i was not careful with him now but the oppisit is the case. I never trust any of them to not get on me. Even my best saddle horse can have a bad day or spook and get on me if im not on my guard. I agree any time you are working with animals that much bigger than you the chance of getting hurt is always ther.

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ANY bull (or cow) that gets pushy with his/her head, swings it side to side or up and down is doing what they do to other 1000# animals--showing dominance!

We have a 50+" horn very gentle Longhorn bull that also likes to have his head or neck scratched, even his sides. On the other hand, we NEVER mess with him with feed in hand (unless we are across the fence). Food to any animal is a green light to GET IT...other emotions and personalities get put on back burner.

Also, do NOT hit or tap or push on a bovines forehead with your body--as such, you are acting like another 1000# animal--and, you will NOT win if push comes to shove (no pun intended).

They know how to play and all with their own kind without hurting or getting hurt...you'll never out-"push" a #1000 animal with its 4-wheel drive with your 150 to 200# body.

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I apologize if I came across too strong. Bulls can be very dangerous animals and can cause great harm to humans. Beginners need to understand this before they are injured.

As for coming across too strong, Mark. How about leaving the name calling out of your posts? We don't need that. You can say what's on your mind without name calling.

> Nice slam Linda. This is the
> "beginner" board. You
> should keep that crap to yourself!
> Your name should be "Black
> Power Linda" with remarks
> like that.
 
Amen to Arnold and the rest. If he's shaking his head he's not playing with you. He's threatening you. If he's pushing on you he's way too close. Like Arnold, my dad drove certain lessons into my head about bulls, including but not limited to:

1) Never hand feed a bull. Never. 2) Never allow a bull to get close to you. 3) If a bull shakes his head at you or paws the earth, make it a point to pick up every rock you can find and throw hard for his head. Big rocks. If he somehow gets within stick range, hit him as hard as you can across the top of his nose. They will pitch and kick but they will generally learn that being near you is no fun. 4) If he makes a habit out of #3, sell him.

Read on, if you're bored…

Years ago, when one of our neighbors died, his wife called and wanted us to buy his cattle. He was a good man and he had a fine looking herd of 20 or 25 Hereford moma cows so we bought the whole outfit private treaty and drove them to a place of ours. He had kept real nice cattle and we felt good about the deal. The problem was the bull. He was a magnificent animal, long as a train, tall and huge. But he had horrible horns and a temper to match. Some days he would act OK, some days he was a maniac.

This was back in the day of square bales so feeding involved a lot of work on foot. I was working at a town job and feeding at night and on weekends. That bull treed me twice, once up a windmill derrick in the day and once in the pickup bed at night. I dreaded messing with those particular cows because of him. One day I finally tricked him and got him caught in the lot.

I was at work the day Daddy loaded him and took him to the sale. If we would have had a trailer without a top he would have climbed out. He broke one horn off trying to tear his way out. Dad said the trailer was practically hopping off the ground. He got to the sale and pulled in to unload. They hollered up to him, asking what was wrong with the bull. Daddy got out and walked back. The idiot had gotten so mad that he had a heart attack and died on the way to the sale. Amazing.

One thing we learned through all that: Thanks to an honest salebarn owner we found out that their insurance covers livestock as soon as they are loaded on the trailer. So we got slaughter price for him.

Craig-TX
 
Bluffing him back may work for now but now that you've used it that trick is done. As he gets older there is a chance he won't stop and neither will you, you'll just end up head over heals and into the fence....



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> I have a black angus bull 16
> months old that sometimes when you
> get in front of him he starts
> bobbing his head up and down. He
> does not seam to be aggressive. He
> has knocked grain bucket out of my
> hand once and kind of pushed me up
> against barn once. Whats he
> telling me? Don't get to close? Or
> just rough playing. He eats right
> out of your hand. Any ideas?

If we have a bull that becomes overly aggressive toward humans we get rid of him. If he is not going to slaughter, we let people know why we are getting rid of him. We like our cattle to be gentle but they are not pets! My father-in-law made pets of his small herd of ten head and they were almost impossible to work. We've worked fifty head in half the time it usually took us to do his ten.
 
I've found Angus to be very gentle. The only time I've ever seen Angus bulls become truly aggressive is during calving season and I won't fault any animal for protecting a newborn. A Jersey bull on the other hand is an accident waiting to happen -- 6 months of age and you better start carrying a club with you.

Ann B

> Angus bulls overly aggressive?
> Obviously you've never been around
> one.



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Wow, I read the new replies and realized that I had forgotten one other huge rule with bulls. Thank you Arnold. No bull should have horns!!! I guess it was just one of those things that is so obvious to me that I forgot to mention it. Sometimes it is the most basic things that we forget as we are busy concentrating on a unique situation. It is that type of lapse in thought that has led to big mistakes. Mistakes like forgetting the "never turn your back on a bull". I know I have broken this rule. I have never been caught, but when I realized I had done it, all the "lucky he is a gentle bull" thoughts did not make the "how stupid can you be" thoughts go away. I guess the point is that it is easy to let your guard down, to fall into bad habits around a bull with a gentle history, or to slip up now and then and do something you know better then doing. It is at these times that you will be caught. The number of stories I have heard about mean bulls getting people are far fewer then the stories about gentle bulls getting people. So, if you are going to have a "pet bull" I guess you are also choosing to take a risk and there is no way to completely remove that risk. The only way to get rid of that risk is to not have any "pet" to your bull. Life is never risk free so.... my Dad, neighbor and myself have accepted that risk to spend time with our bulls. Foolish pleasure? Sure. I would not advise anyone to do the same or want to lead them to believe that having a pet bull can be safe. If you do choose to have a pet bull you can do things like de-horn him, ring and chain him, always keep air to your back etc. but you can never be completely safe and you are risking being the next "gentle bull got him" story. Thanks, Rick

> Ok I read all the replies and was
> shocked that not a single
> "ring" him was
> mentioned. We raised many hand fed
> friendly bulls, (one would take
> walks with my Dad like a huge
> dog). All of them liked being
> scratched, rubbed etc. When they
> were young they would bob their
> heads and give little play butts
> and we scratched them and pushed
> their heads around etc. The point
> is that as they get older and
> bigger their play can really hurt
> you, maybe kill and even the
> nicest person and bull will at
> some point get a bit angry. And a
> bull only has to get angry with
> you once!!! ("geez and he was
> always a calm bull...." ever
> heard that before?) Taking all of
> this into consideration all our
> bulls were ringed with a chain. A
> good quality large ring with a
> length of chain that drags at
> least a foot on the ground when
> his head is normal heigth and just
> touches the ground with one link
> when his head is raised all the
> way up is what you need. As far as
> reaching through a gate or coral,
> I do not like it. won't get killed
> but some crushed fingers or a
> broken arm will ruin your day
> (always reach over the top). In
> short ring and chain him, then
> continue to pet, scratch spend
> time with him and never ever, even
> for a second let your guard down.
> Stay to his sides, do not place
> yourself between him and something
> else (always have air and room to
> your back and never him to it).
> Total fear and total trust are
> equally bad choices. Or and as far
> as the kick him in the nose, run
> at him yelling and waving and
> other "show him who is
> dominate" ideas, the first
> step in that plan is making sure
> that your health and life
> insurance is paid up to date. I
> have played with full grown bulls,
> pushing their heads, bumping,
> scratching etc. all of them were
> ringed with a chain and I always
> remembered the back rule. I had a
> neighbor who would put his
> daughter on his bull's back and
> lead the bull around the pasture
> by his halter. Nothing ever
> happend, but I never went near
> that bull. No ring, no chain, no
> me. good luck, Rick



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While I would tend to agree with you on that (I don't keep breeding bulls at all), I know several who wouldn't. I know several cattlemen who run their bulls with their cows year round and have no set calving season. And I know others who turn their bulls in with the cows right before calving season to protect the calves from coyotes, bobcats, and lions.

Ann B

> There is no reason to have your
> bull in with cows calving anyway.



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Bulls will not protect calves from Coyotes or bobcats. Whoever told you that doesn't know much about cattle. I suppose the bulls alternate shifts throughout the night walking around the herd of sleeping cows and calves?! A cow may run a coyote off if she knows it's there after her calf but a bull doesn't give a damn.

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> Bulls will not protect calves from
> Coyotes or bobcats. Whoever told
> you that doesn't know much about
> cattle. I suppose the bulls
> alternate shifts throughout the
> night walking around the herd of
> sleeping cows and calves?! A cow
> may run a coyote off if she knows
> it's there after her calf but a
> bull doesn't give a damn.

They won't help at all? That's why I put my bulls in this year at calving season. I have been told by a few old timers around here that they would help because we are seeing alot of coyotes. I don't think they stand watch, but if something came up they might at least try to do something. One of my bulls is pretty dog aggressive.



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never say never. i'm sure there are stories of some bulls who were great protectors of the women & children but generally speaking, the vast majority of them are not.

if your goal is predator control, i don't think your best option is your bull. something we've never tried, but i've heard other folks swear by it, is a donkey.
 
One of my bulls is bucket raised. He likes to push me out of the way when I feed, but if he gets a little rough, I give him a good smack on the nose. They don't like that. He discontinues the rough play. I don't turn my back on him for the simple fact nobody can deny. His size dictates that respect.

> I've heard that if you keep a
> bucket calf for a bull you'd have
> to raise them different than other
> cattle I would guess it is a
> similiar case here. He probably
> recognizes you as a competiter for
> the girls. I would watch my back
> but he could just be overly
> friendly. Jake
 
i had a jenny once... and yes she did a good job of protecting, but she decided at calving time that she would just take a calf... she wouldnt let the calf to the cow and kicked the cow... and did this to more than one...

had i not noticed, the calf was as good as dead... must get that colostrum to survive..

needless to say, that jenny grew wheels and fast..

gene

> never say never. i'm sure there
> are stories of some bulls who were
> great protectors of the women
> & children but generally
> speaking, the vast majority of
> them are not.

> if your goal is predator control,
> i don't think your best option is
> your bull. something we've never
> tried, but i've heard other folks
> swear by it, is a donkey.



[email protected]
 
Regretfully, a bull will not interfere with a predator that's after a calf – unless the bull himself feels threatened for some reason. Cows, especially those with young calves, will sometimes fight together. That's a disadvantage to only running a few momma cows on a place with a coyote problem. It helps to have enough to hold off a pack of coyotes. The cows will (sometimes) bunch up and more or less face outward, trying to keep the calves protected, which is hard to do if there are only a few cows. Sometimes they won't.

Of course, the old Hereford momma, so out of style these days, will likely as not be over on the sidelines chewing her cud with the smug satisfaction that her baby is well hidden.

Craig-TX
 

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