Breeding Charolais Cattle

[tdarden3k]

Gentlemen ..... and Ladies
Is there a way to consistently get black hided offspring from commercial Charolais cows ? I know about "smokies" but I am not referring to them.

I have seen many instances of it but was wondering if that is the norm when crossing with ??????? type bulls.

 

[AllForage]

Why? Why would anyone want charolais as their maternal cow herd base? Guess feed prices weren't high enough last winter?

 

[dryfork2]

Use the search for black Charolais was someone on few weeks ago president of association. Why Charolais for maternal?? Why not?? Make good mommas wean BIG pounds, will grub the bushes if they have to. Cross good with several different breeds. Theres feed hogs in all breeds. If it works for someone I say go for it. Someone from Quebec posted a couple weeks ago, had Facebook link . What a set of cows.

 

[Taurus]

I just don't understand why would someone made a Charolais black if a traditional Charolais works just fine?

 

[deenranch]

Why? Why would anyone want charolais as their maternal cow herd base? Guess feed prices weren't high enough last winter?

Because they raise big calves.... If they didn't I wouldn't be getting 700 pound bull calves at 6 months old... That's why :tiphat:

 

[R V]

I like the gray momma cows. They raise good calves for me and they tolerate the heat/breed back better for me during June and July. I don't know of anyway to get all black calves out of them except use them as recips for black embryos. Otherwise it is about 50/50 for me.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

It will be a crap shoot to get black animals consistently. Have a 1/2 char cow from a black sim daddy, and she has had 3 black, 3 gray/white, and 3 red calves being bred to anything from a Angus bull, to a pb homo black simmy, to a black simmy. So to take a Char, and try to breed for only black calves will be a great feat. But they do make some really nice calves, and around here the black nose grey/whites sell as good as the blacks.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Tdarden where are you from? Instead of trying for a black calf why not try for a yellow calf. Around here the yellow calves don't take a backseat to any thing.

 

[salebarn junkie]

Around here the yellow do as well as black. For terminal calves I'd use a red limi for replacements I'd use a red Angus or a herford

 

[denvermartinfarms]

I would use a horned Hereford or a red limi, again around here they will beat a smoke colered calf and stay right with the blacks. And If you already have Charolais cows, I can tell you I would a whole rather feed yellow and yellow baldie calves than what your chars will have with any black bull.

 

[raykour]

No one answered the real question here.....
If you have a parent that is any other color than black, you cannot increase your odds of having black calves.

The further you get away from the charolais parent, the better luck you will have with black hided calves but it is still a crap shoot. I do know that red is recessive and black is dominant, so it can be hiding alot of things underneath. WHITE coat color in the charolais is an inhibitor, it prevents color from forming. SO if you have a purebred charolais parent, then the calf will always express that in some degree.....being orange, yellow, gray, mouse, smoke colored or whatever.

I have many charolais mix cows, most originated from one charolais x angus cow, Trisha. She is a light tan color Several of her daughters are darker tan or smoke colored (when Trisha was bred to a black bull) and in turn their calves have been black or smoke colored also (when bred to a black bull) This year, I bred Trisha and her oldest daughter Sam to a gelbvieh bull. Trisha (the first generation charolais cross) produced a BLACK calf. Sam (the 2nd generation cross, who is 3/4 angus) produced a gray colored calf.

Point being, you need to get a few generations away from the purebred charolais to take out the color on a more consistent basis.

I agree with you that the charolais genetics really increase frame size and all the calves we keep to butcher are generally charolais. If I have to send them to an auction house (I prefer not to, but sometimes I can't sell them all privately) I have some really good looking grass calves in black packages that bring good prices.

 

[greybeard]

Raykour:
With the Angus/Brangus and Char cross, have you ever gotten a rat tail calf?

 

[tdarden3k]

No one answered the real question here.....
If you have a parent that is any other color than black, you cannot increase your odds of having black calves.

The further you get away from the charolais parent, the better luck you will have with black hided calves but it is still a crap shoot. I do know that red is recessive and black is dominant, so it can be hiding alot of things underneath. WHITE coat color in the charolais is an inhibitor, it prevents color from forming. SO if you have a purebred charolais parent, then the calf will always express that in some degree.....being orange, yellow, gray, mouse, smoke colored or whatever.

I have many charolais mix cows, most originated from one charolais x angus cow, Trisha. She is a light tan color Several of her daughters are darker tan or smoke colored (when Trisha was bred to a black bull) and in turn their calves have been black or smoke colored also (when bred to a black bull) This year, I bred Trisha and her oldest daughter Sam to a gelbvieh bull. Trisha (the first generation charolais cross) produced a BLACK calf. Sam (the 2nd generation cross, who is 3/4 angus) produced a gray colored calf.

Point being, you need to get a few generations away from the purebred charolais to take out the color on a more consistent basis.

I agree with you that the charolais genetics really increase frame size and all the calves we keep to butcher are generally charolais. If I have to send them to an auction house (I prefer not to, but sometimes I can't sell them all privately) I have some really good looking grass calves in black packages that bring good prices.

Raykour
Very good explanation... Thank You. Since I have seen the cross a lot (White Cow and Black calf) I was wondering and did a little research on the red gene found in Charolais cattle. If someone was looking for a hand full of these cattle, without having to take them to a geneticist , could they be chosen by a reddish pigment to the hair/hide ?
Thanks

 

[raykour]

greybeard

yes, i have gotten a couple ratters it in the past, but not anything on a consistent sort of basis. In fact I have one now. He is 18 months old and about the size of a yearling. I'll butcher him in August or September. might as well just keep them for my own freezer than sell them.

 

[glacierridge]

Use the search for black Charolais was someone on few weeks ago president of association. Why Charolais for maternal?? Why not?? Make good mommas wean BIG pounds, will grub the bushes if they have to. Cross good with several different breeds. Theres feed hogs in all breeds. If it works for someone I say go for it. Someone from Quebec posted a couple weeks ago, had Facebook link . What a set of cows.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[bigag03]

You are fighting 2 different genes to get Charolais from White to Black. 1st is the diluter gene and 2nd, the base color gene, which is recessive red in Charolais cattle. There are some Charolais that are referred to as "red factor". These are Charolais cattle that are already either heterozygous (straw color) or homozygous (red) for the non-dilution allele (i.e. they have lost their diluter gene already).

If I wanted to make Black Charolais, that would breed true, I would tackle the genes one at a time. 1st, use a red breed of your choosing and use that breed to inject the non-dilution allele while maintaining the red allele (or find red factor Charolais). Then grade back up to Charolais while selecting for straw color, then red Charolais. Once you get them red, turning them black is easy since it is dominant. Will still take a few generations to get them homo black, but you won't be fighting dilution at the same time.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Good explanation. Even I understood what you were saying.

 

[MikeC]

http://burtcattlecompany.com/

 

[phillse]

Looking at the pictures of some of those Black Charolais; they seem to have lost some other "Charolais" traits, than just the color.

 

[tdarden3k]

You are fighting 2 different genes to get Charolais from White to Black. 1st is the diluter gene and 2nd, the base color gene, which is recessive red in Charolais cattle. There are some Charolais that are referred to as "red factor". These are Charolais cattle that are already either heterozygous (straw color) or homozygous (red) for the non-dilution allele (i.e. they have lost their diluter gene already).

If I wanted to make Black Charolais, that would breed true, I would tackle the genes one at a time. 1st, use a red breed of your choosing and use that breed to inject the non-dilution allele while maintaining the red allele (or find red factor Charolais). Then grade back up to Charolais while selecting for straw color, then red Charolais. Once you get them red, turning them black is easy since it is dominant. Will still take a few generations to get them homo black, but you won't be fighting dilution at the same time.

Thanks Biaga03
You have presented a great explanation. Let me ask a question. In situations where I see White (Charolais-ish) cows with Black calves, I can assume that they have lost their "diluter gene. A person who collected a group of these such cows would more than likely face what other hide colors.... Red , White and Black ?