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Bred Heifers Question

HOSS

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I am looking at buying a couple of 19 month old bred heifers from a cattleman that has a pretty good reputation as a straight shooter and a good reputation in the area for producing good replacement heifers. I went and looked at them yesterday and as far as commercial stock goes I would put them at well above average. They are about 4 months bred to a really nice BA bull that is an AI bull out of Bon View Bando 1394. The bull was on-site and was well above average phenotypically. The one worry I have is his BW EPD of +3 which is higher than I have typically used on heifers. His CED is +5 which is breed average for BA bulls. He does have impressive performance epd's with WW being +59 and YW at +101. He does not appear to be built like a hard calver and I think his actual BW was about 80 pounds.

The heifers were sired by B/R Destination 727-928 who has a BW epd of +3 also. Of course the dams are all commercial cows with no epd's.

The heifers should mature out at about 1300 pounds so they seem to have adequate frame. I can get them for about 850.00 each which isn't a bad deal around these parts. My question is....how worried should I be about these heifers calving on their own? Would ya'll take a chance on the purchase since the quality is high or pass in favor of heifers bred to a low BW bull?
 

simcross

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I don't think a +3 bull is to big on heifers if they are average size heifers, once in a while you might have a problem. I don't buy a bull under +3 because I think that is a good average number. A bull with a smaller EPD for birth weight is probably a smaller bull all the way around so his heifers would be a little smaller.
So I stick to the average size to stay average
 

S&WSigma40VEShooter

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HOSS":3hftvpau said:
I am looking at buying a couple of 19 month old bred heifers from a cattleman that has a pretty good reputation as a straight shooter and a good reputation in the area for producing good replacement heifers. I went and looked at them yesterday and as far as commercial stock goes I would put them at well above average. They are about 4 months bred to a really nice BA bull that is an AI bull out of Bon View Bando 1394. The bull was on-site and was well above average phenotypically. The one worry I have is his BW EPD of +3 which is higher than I have typically used on heifers. His CED is +5 which is breed average for BA bulls. He does have impressive performance epd's with WW being +59 and YW at +101. He does not appear to be built like a hard calver and I think his actual BW was about 80 pounds.

The heifers were sired by B/R Destination 727-928 who has a BW epd of +3 also. Of course the dams are all commercial cows with no epd's.

The heifers should mature out at about 1300 pounds so they seem to have adequate frame. I can get them for about 850.00 each which isn't a bad deal around these parts. My question is....how worried should I be about these heifers calving on their own? Would ya'll take a chance on the purchase since the quality is high or pass in favor of heifers bred to a low BW bull?


I would say you will more than likely be okay. At that price go ahead and buy em. If you really have to think about dont get em. Do what your gut says.
 

Cowdirt

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HOSS":zywzfud6 said:
I am looking at buying a couple of 19 month old bred heifers from a cattleman that has a pretty good reputation as a straight shooter and a good reputation in the area for producing good replacement heifers. I went and looked at them yesterday and as far as commercial stock goes I would put them at well above average. They are about 4 months bred to a really nice BA bull that is an AI bull out of Bon View Bando 1394. The bull was on-site and was well above average phenotypically. The one worry I have is his BW EPD of +3 which is higher than I have typically used on heifers. His CED is +5 which is breed average for BA bulls. He does have impressive performance epd's with WW being +59 and YW at +101. He does not appear to be built like a hard calver and I think his actual BW was about 80 pounds.

The heifers were sired by B/R Destination 727-928 who has a BW epd of +3 also. Of course the dams are all commercial cows with no epd's.

The heifers should mature out at about 1300 pounds so they seem to have adequate frame. I can get them for about 850.00 each which isn't a bad deal around these parts. My question is....how worried should I be about these heifers calving on their own? Would ya'll take a chance on the purchase since the quality is high or pass in favor of heifers bred to a low BW bull?


Hoss, if the heifers are avg. or greater in size now, I would go with them. Seems to be a reasonable price for good heifers four mos. bred. The bull's epds most likely aren't derived from much data at this point but I don't think it's high risk. My experience has been that there are so many other factors entering into bw that I would not reject them on the bull.
 

Wewild

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Will they calve in March? I like our heifers to calve early and give them time to breed back. If those miss the next time they could be in April.

Ours should be coming by the end of the month to be ready for the Fall sale season in the years a head.
 

HOSS

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Wewild":1cxnbzdq said:
Will they calve in March? I like our heifers to calve early and give them time to breed back. If those miss the next time they could be in April.

Ours should be coming by the end of the month to be ready for the Fall sale season in the years a head.

Yes they should calve in March.
 

KMacGinley

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I would never breed a young unproven bull with a low accuracy, but relatively high bw epd to heifers. you have no idea what you are going to end up with. He could throw lighter than average calves or much higher than average calves. You lose one of those calves or even the heifer calving and that is not such a good deal.

I would also check into the bulls status on genetic defects. There are a lot of carrier cattle being peddled to commercial guys right now with no mention of whether or not they are from effected lines. That bloodline has been mentioned in association with one of the 3 defects.
 

S&WSigma40VEShooter

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KMacGinley":2i7d7k9b said:
I would never breed a young unproven bull with a low accuracy, but relatively high bw epd to heifers. you have no idea what you are going to end up with. He could throw lighter than average calves or much higher than average calves. You lose one of those calves or even the heifer calving and that is not such a good deal.

I would also check into the bulls status on genetic defects. There are a lot of carrier cattle being peddled to commercial guys right now with no mention of whether or not they are from effected lines. That bloodline has been mentioned in association with one of the 3 defects.


Good point k. Make sure they are am, nh, and fawn calf free. Did you buy the heifers yet hoss?
 

hillsdown

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Hoss I have been burnt too many times so I will not buy bred anything anymore unless I am very familiar with the bull.

If you trust the seller then you might be OK. But expect to be on watch 24/7 when those heifers start calving and have your calf pullers ready to go and your vet on speed dial just in case.. If you are completely prepared then everything should go smoothly.

As ws said check out those blood lines very carefully .You are paying a [email protected] of a lot of money to end up with a dud calf.
 

HOSS

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I haven't bought the heifers yet. Some things are still pending. The guy who owns them told me that he had a cow in his herd that had some symptoms of Johnes disease and he didn't want me to buy the heifers until he had the cow tested because they were pastured together. I guess it is contagious so we are waiting on the blood test results on the cow.

The bull that the heifers are bred to has been used for 3 calving seasons but not on heifers. The BW's of his calves have been around 80 to 85 pounds consistantly when bred to mature cows. That is over maybe 100 calves. The owner felt confident enough to use him on heifers this summer based off of his past performance.

If the sick cow has no contagious diseases I will probably buy the heifers and watch them closely at calving time.
 

S&WSigma40VEShooter

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HOSS":3026nl0p said:
I haven't bought the heifers yet. Some things are still pending. The guy who owns them told me that he had a cow in his herd that had some symptoms of Johnes disease and he didn't want me to buy the heifers until he had the cow tested because they were pastured together. I guess it is contagious so we are waiting on the blood test results on the cow.

The bull that the heifers are bred to has been used for 3 calving seasons but not on heifers. The BW's of his calves have been around 80 to 85 pounds consistantly when bred to mature cows. That is over maybe 100 calves. The owner felt confident enough to use him on heifers this summer based off of his past performance.

If the sick cow has no contagious diseases I will probably buy the heifers and watch them closely at calving time.


I hear ya on that. Anytime I buy cows I want em BVD pi tested johnes tested, heck everything tested.
 

HerefordSire

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HOSS":1e8cw5pe said:
I am looking at buying a couple of 19 month old bred heifers from a cattleman that has a pretty good reputation as a straight shooter and a good reputation in the area for producing good replacement heifers. I went and looked at them yesterday and as far as commercial stock goes I would put them at well above average. They are about 4 months bred to a really nice BA bull that is an AI bull out of Bon View Bando 1394. The bull was on-site and was well above average phenotypically. The one worry I have is his BW EPD of +3 which is higher than I have typically used on heifers. His CED is +5 which is breed average for BA bulls. He does have impressive performance epd's with WW being +59 and YW at +101. He does not appear to be built like a hard calver and I think his actual BW was about 80 pounds.

The heifers were sired by B/R Destination 727-928 who has a BW epd of +3 also. Of course the dams are all commercial cows with no epd's.

The heifers should mature out at about 1300 pounds so they seem to have adequate frame. I can get them for about 850.00 each which isn't a bad deal around these parts. My question is....how worried should I be about these heifers calving on their own? Would ya'll take a chance on the purchase since the quality is high or pass in favor of heifers bred to a low BW bull?


See if he will do this after the negative herd tests are received.

Offer him/her $850 with a live heifer and calf guarantee or $750 without a guarantee.
 

dun

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HerefordSire":p859kmry said:
Offer him/her $850 with a live heifer and calf guarantee or $750 without a guarantee.
Some body try that with me and he'll have wasted the cost of a phone call and his and my time.
 

hillsdown

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I thought Hoss was paying 1850.00 each.. :oops:

That is a good deal Hoss, research the pedigree and scoop them up especially if they have certs.
 

hillsdown

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I think I need to borrow your glasses Dun,, never mind I found mine. They were right where I left them, on top of my head.. :lol: :p :help:
 

HerefordSire

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dun":cagsnf1m said:
HerefordSire":cagsnf1m said:
Offer him/her $850 with a live heifer and calf guarantee or $750 without a guarantee.
Some body try that with me and he'll have wasted the cost of a phone call and his and my time.

If that happened, I would still have my cash in a recession with market prices weak.
 

SRBeef

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1) I would really find out why he is selling them.

2) If he suspects Johnes I would thank him for his honesty and leave - without the heifers. Johnes is spread in manure, I believe, and once you get it in your herd and land it is near impossible to get rid of.

I wonder if this is why he is clearing them all out?

If you want to continue I would ask him if I could collect various manure samples around and get them tested yourself? Are any of the cattle in his herd, even those not offerred for sale, looking thin/emaciated?

Be careful. jmho.

Jim
 

HOSS

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SRBeef":27wy7ank said:
1) I would really find out why he is selling them.

2) If he suspects Johnes I would thank him for his honesty and leave - without the heifers. Johnes is spread in manure, I believe, and once you get it in your herd and land it is near impossible to get rid of.

I wonder if this is why he is clearing them all out?

If you want to continue I would ask him if I could collect various manure samples around and get them tested yourself? Are any of the cattle in his herd, even those not offerred for sale, looking thin/emaciated?

Be careful. jmho.

Jim

Test for johnes disease was negative. It was the only cow he had that had any signs of illness. Still not sure what is wrong with that one cow.....vet is still checking.

He is not clearing them out. He is just selling me two of the 8 he held back for himself. They will be preg checked in 2 weeks so hopefully we will find out what is wrong with the cow before then. I will need to make a decision after preg verification.
 

S&WSigma40VEShooter

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HOSS":p29pyx5b said:
SRBeef":p29pyx5b said:
1) I would really find out why he is selling them.

2) If he suspects Johnes I would thank him for his honesty and leave - without the heifers. Johnes is spread in manure, I believe, and once you get it in your herd and land it is near impossible to get rid of.

I wonder if this is why he is clearing them all out?

If you want to continue I would ask him if I could collect various manure samples around and get them tested yourself? Are any of the cattle in his herd, even those not offerred for sale, looking thin/emaciated?

Be careful. jmho.

Jim

Test for johnes disease was negative. It was the only cow he had that had any signs of illness. Still not sure what is wrong with that one cow.....vet is still checking.

He is not clearing them out. He is just selling me two of the 8 he held back for himself. They will be preg checked in 2 weeks so hopefully we will find out what is wrong with the cow before then. I will need to make a decision after preg verification.

The blood test on johnes is always either negative or inconclusive. Its the crap test that actually tells it.
 

Jovid

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S&WSigma40VEShooter":2fldk584 said:
HOSS":2fldk584 said:
SRBeef":2fldk584 said:
1) I would really find out why he is selling them.

2) If he suspects Johnes I would thank him for his honesty and leave - without the heifers. Johnes is spread in manure, I believe, and once you get it in your herd and land it is near impossible to get rid of.

I wonder if this is why he is clearing them all out?

If you want to continue I would ask him if I could collect various manure samples around and get them tested yourself? Are any of the cattle in his herd, even those not offerred for sale, looking thin/emaciated?

Be careful. jmho.

Jim

Test for johnes disease was negative. It was the only cow he had that had any signs of illness. Still not sure what is wrong with that one cow.....vet is still checking.

He is not clearing them out. He is just selling me two of the 8 he held back for himself. They will be preg checked in 2 weeks so hopefully we will find out what is wrong with the cow before then. I will need to make a decision after preg verification.

The blood test on johnes is always either negative or inconclusive. Its the crap test that actually tells it.
I forgot you are the Johnes expert on here.
 

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