Big Momma Cows

[CattleMan1920]

She came from Stone Gate, we didn't breed her. I suppose they didn't know what they were doing, I will make sure I tell them what you said next time I see them. Same with Stevenson and Basin Ranch which are in her direct bloodline.

Yeah, she is a very fragile animal. LOL! I will make sure to tell her to suck in her brisket next time I take a shot of her, she is won't be offended. Truth is she could blow through a brick wall like the Cool-Aid man with those "toothpicks". LOL! you crack me up. I can take some pictures of toothpicks around here, no shortage of them in my area.

As for the 50 cents on the dollar comment, is the thrifty cattleman getting actual SAV heifers and dams? or knock offs? Because a registered SAV heifer or cow usually commands a steep premium, and there is a reason for that.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Those big cows are eat up with eye appeal in a perfect world, I'd love to have a pasture full. .but in this real world, a ""commercial""" man has to be sensible... Staying in the middle,,, has been my goal these last few years..

I understand that a cow has to fit the environment, but last time I checked Kentucky has a wretched environment, and our big cows hold up fine.

What's your cost per head to maintain your cows with such condition in your environment?
$$$ is as that matters to the commercial cattleman. Big, fat cows only make money for the slaughter plant.

 

[CattleMan1920]

https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl.aspx?aid=FAAAAO2ryzSd6PY1%2bHctHKcTKCNUceXjCiUCkTCEIqKIAhiD&time=LAAAAJ8MC0h2uLHE3duFnj9PYQum4S2eZMUNBY7Z7Fk7qGm9BGih%2bS2cqjbC4of7mJm9uQ%3d%3d
You do realize that net worth is right at or even below breed average for growth? I agree that phenotypically he is VERY impressive but his off spring haven't performed very well.. unless you're going for huge birth weights, poor docility, and average growth. I was talking to a long time breeder about this bull a while back and he claimed that net worth has been a big overall disappointment.. I personally haven't used him or had much experience with calves sired by him, though. I have seen a few cows by him and my only take away was plain and high headed.

I would definitely use him. He is only one half of the equation. You did not look at the cow I am using him on. She is well above breed average for growth. Net Worth daughters will always be in demand. Same with SAV Harvestor. By the way, if you can get any SAV Harvestor daughters, you should get as many as you can, they are superb.

When people say a combination was "big disappointment", they rarely tell you about the dam they used. Maybe she was the big disappointment. AI is a great way to improve a herd, but sometimes people are looking for miracles to happen in that straw of semen.

Actually the breeder I was speaking with is from an outfit that I've seen you cite as one of the pinnacles of the Angus breed :lol: .. keep doing your thing, though. I'm sure you'll teach us poor dumb KY cattlemen a thing or two before long :cowboy:

I'm not trying to teach, I am merely stating what we are working on at the moment. I don't have to do that, I could stay dead silent like the rest of the Angus breeders in the state and elsewhere. I'm on here to talk cattle, not to put people down. If I offended you, it was not intentionally, in fact I'm pretty sure that people who are running their operation well would not get offended by anything I post because they would know the issues I'm discussing do not apply to their operation. Take Bright Raven for example, he hasn't been offended by my comments. He runs a top notch operation, he has no reason to become defensive.

However, if someone is starving their cattle, feeding moldy hay, and dealing with dead calves, then yeah, I might be offending said person. I will never be the person on the thread that says that kind of management is "ok".

 

[True Grit Farms]

I don't give a dang what cow family she's from or who she came from. So I take it you don't see the same things as I see with that cow? If one of my cows had a brisket like that I'd suspect hardware, or heart problems. SAV has sold a lot of embryos to different breeders in the southeast. And some breeders even cross Coleman and SAV genetics, imagine that.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Those big cows are eat up with eye appeal in a perfect world, I'd love to have a pasture full. .but in this real world, a ""commercial""" man has to be sensible... Staying in the middle,,, has been my goal these last few years..

I understand that a cow has to fit the environment, but last time I checked Kentucky has a wretched environment, and our big cows hold up fine.

What's your cost per head to maintain your cows with such condition in your environment?
$$$ is as that matters to the commercial cattleman. Big, fat cows only make money for the slaughter plant.

They are fed about 3 pounds of grain per day, per cow. They get hay starting around late November, and I usually stop feeding hay in mid to late March, unless conditions are really bad. I have the cows split up in small groups of around 10-12. I put an 1100-1200 pound bale of alfalfa/orchard grass haylage in a ring for each group and it lasts them about 5 days, unless it's raining and in the 30's whereby they eat the hay more aggressively. I could cut out the grain and feed low-quality hay to save money, but that's not how we do things.

We seed ladino and red clover in February on the dark moon, when it comes up strong in the spring, the grain is pretty much cut off, except for a taste every day to work them, and keep them calm for rotating them around the farm. They get huge on that clover during the summer, and it's cheap feed.

I don't have the cost per cow penciled down to the exact dollar, because it's hard to do that with the extreme winters we have had for the past few years (rain, mud, etc), the amount of feed can vary from week to week. I would say I'm in the $1.25 to $1.50 a day range. Again calculating that number is difficult because we buy some hay and produce some hay, and I would have to take in the cost of producing the hay as well. Not to mention the mineral program, multimin, vaccines, etc.

You asked a good question. I'm not trying to be a wise a..s, I just think that higher weaning weights from genetics can give the commercial producer a fighting chance in a low margin, commodity business.

 

[Lazy M]

I would definitely use him. He is only one half of the equation. You did not look at the cow I am using him on. She is well above breed average for growth. Net Worth daughters will always be in demand. Same with SAV Harvestor. By the way, if you can get any SAV Harvestor daughters, you should get as many as you can, they are superb.

When people say a combination was "big disappointment", they rarely tell you about the dam they used. Maybe she was the big disappointment. AI is a great way to improve a herd, but sometimes people are looking for miracles to happen in that straw of semen.

Actually the breeder I was speaking with is from an outfit that I've seen you cite as one of the pinnacles of the Angus breed :lol: .. keep doing your thing, though. I'm sure you'll teach us poor dumb KY cattlemen a thing or two before long :cowboy:

I'm not trying to teach, I am merely stating what we are working on at the moment. I don't have to do that, I could stay dead silent like the rest of the Angus breeders in the state and elsewhere. I'm on here to talk cattle, not to put people down. If I offended you, it was not intentionally, in fact I'm pretty sure that people who are running their operation well would not get offended by anything I post because they would know the issues I'm discussing do not apply to their operation. Take Bright Raven for example, he hasn't been offended by my comments. He runs a top notch operation, he has no reason to become defensive.

However, if someone is starving their cattle, feeding moldy hay, and dealing with dead calves, then yeah, I might be offending said person. I will never be the person on the thread that says that kind of management is "ok".

Not offending me.. Of course I'm not the one that recently threatened to quit posting because all these mean cowboys were picking on my fat cows.. :cry2: .. that's a joke. I agree with some of your points, but I do think you're kind of all over the place with what your operations goals are.. you use high input, high growth bulls, but your cow herd is based on low input stock (Stone Gate).. you rail against UK pushing CE bulls because they won't give high performing calves, and yet you plan to use Net Worth, a highly proven bull for siring average performing calves..
BTW I think that even Bright Raven would admit that he isn't the foil to use for KY cattle success.. he has very nice cattle and is a very good steward to them, but he ain't doing this for a living :cboy:

 

[CattleMan1920]

I don't give a dang what cow family she's from or who she came from. So I take it you don't see the same things as I see with that cow? If one of my cows had a brisket like that I'd suspect hardware, or heart problems. SAV has sold a lot of embryos to different breeders in the southeast. And some breeders even cross Coleman and SAV genetics, imagine that.

She is 8 years old, with no screw claw, good feet, like I said earlier, no issues. I will let you know if she falls over with a heart attack, :lol: I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

What if she makes it to 15 years old and has a calf every year, will you still feel the same? My bet is that she will pull that off. Stone Gate cows last a LONG TIME.

If you think that old girl that I posted earlier had a brisket, take a look at this one. She weighs a ton, just had a very nice SAV President daughter a few months ago, and is already settled again. She is 8 years old as well. This picture was taken when she had been on grass/clover for a month, barely any grain, less than 1/2 pound a day. I can't wait to hear you rip this one apart. BTW, she was settled recently by our Stone Gate bull, but next time around I may breed her to SAV Pedigree to see if we can build on her frame. Check out her CED and $EN, how would that not work for a commercial operation? She is top 30% for energy, and top 30% for calving ease, and top 25% for quality grade ($QG). I have little doubt that she will not be able to reach 15 years as well.

Imagine breeding this one to Coleman Charlo. Now that would be interesting!

 

[CattleMan1920]

Actually the breeder I was speaking with is from an outfit that I've seen you cite as one of the pinnacles of the Angus breed :lol: .. keep doing your thing, though. I'm sure you'll teach us poor dumb KY cattlemen a thing or two before long :cowboy:

I'm not trying to teach, I am merely stating what we are working on at the moment. I don't have to do that, I could stay dead silent like the rest of the Angus breeders in the state and elsewhere. I'm on here to talk cattle, not to put people down. If I offended you, it was not intentionally, in fact I'm pretty sure that people who are running their operation well would not get offended by anything I post because they would know the issues I'm discussing do not apply to their operation. Take Bright Raven for example, he hasn't been offended by my comments. He runs a top notch operation, he has no reason to become defensive.

However, if someone is starving their cattle, feeding moldy hay, and dealing with dead calves, then yeah, I might be offending said person. I will never be the person on the thread that says that kind of management is "ok".

Not offending me.. Of course I'm not the one that recently threatened to quit posting because all these mean cowboys were picking on my fat cows.. :cry2: .. that's a joke. I agree with some of your points, but I do think you're kind of all over the place with what your operations goals are.. you use high input, high growth bulls, but your cow herd is based on low input stock (Stone Gate).. you rail against UK pushing CE bulls because they won't give high performing calves, and yet you plan to use Net Worth, a highly proven bull for siring average performing calves..
BTW I think that even Bright Raven would admit that he isn't the foil to use for KY cattle success.. he has very nice cattle and is a very good steward to them, but he ain't doing this for a living :cboy:

I have to admit, we try a lot of things to see what works best. I don't like to be stuck to one thing, and resistant to change. Crossing high input bulls to Stonegate cows has produced some really nice results. Stacking calving ease, upon calving ease doesn't make sense to me. We use calving ease sires on our heifers, but our cows typically get bred to bulls like what you mentioned earlier.

A lot of producers around here, use a calving ease sire herd wide, when in my opinion they should use calving ease on heifers and terminal on cows. That's just my opinion.

You are more than welcome to stop out sometime and see that what's on the ground is not all over the place, and in fact is making a lot of sense. Charles Cannon has been out several times to look the herd over.

As for Net Worth, I plan on using him with one certain cow, not across the herd. Nobody can say with certainty how that pairing will fare, it may produce duds, or it may produce some very fine progeny. I'm pretty confident it will result in above average EPD's across the board, but I may be wrong. Boyd has some really nice daughters out of Net Worth, and I think he has pretty good judgment when it comes to cattle.

I don't think that just because one is running a commercial herd that it should be handled in a low rent manner. I think one can implement good practices and take care of their cattle. I'm railing against the ones here in KY that leave their cattle for dead and/or could care less about management.

As for threatening to quit the board, I figured you all needed a punching bag that had the nerve to discuss their herd and post pictures, I was right about that and it's why I returned, along with some private messages asking me to do so. LOL!

 

[Lazy M]

Fair enough. Good post. I hope you stick around for a while.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Fair enough. Good post. I hope you stick around for a while.

I will because you guys make things interesting. :cboy:

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, one of Stone Gate's pathfinder dams has SAV blood in her.

 

[Lazy M]

I've never used Stone Gate bulls. Going strictly by epds, I've always been scared off by their low growth genetics. I have no doubt that they'd make good maternal cows but felt that for commercial more performance is necessary. How have their calves performed for you?

 

[True Grit Farms]

From the Charlo calves that I've seen in person he would be an ideal sire for that cow. But Charlo doesn't fit for the direction that you want to go. What is your take on Sitz Angus? Their cattle seem to fit my style of management.

 

[CattleMan1920]

From the Charlo calves that I've seen in person he would be an ideal sire for that cow. But Charlo doesn't fit for the direction that you want to go. What is your take on Sitz Angus? Their cattle seem to fit my style of management.

I like Sitz Angus, they show up in the pedigrees of some of our dams, ones that have been good performing cows. I don't think you can go wrong using their genetics.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I've never used Stone Gate bulls. Going strictly by epds, I've always been scared off by their low growth genetics. I have no doubt that they'd make good maternal cows but felt that for commercial more performance is necessary. How have their calves performed for you?

They have performed well, are they on par with SAV International or say EXAR Denver 2002b, I don't think so. They are heaviily focused on maternal traits. If taken care of Stone Gate cows last for a long time. They know how to breed a very good cow, that is for sure, I think they have 9 Pathfinder dams in production. As for their bulls they are high quality in my book. We have a Stone Gate sire that we use on occasion, he is from an Apex Angus bull, I can't fault his performance, he has produced some nice progeny. He's about 2500 pounds. I've posted pics and video of him.

If I were running a commercial herd however, I would want to use bulls such as SAV International, SAV Cutting Edge. The problem with that however in the eyes of most producers in a place like Kentucky is that they worry about pulling calves, feeding issues and such. I think those worries are unfounded, but I would never suggest that a producer have cattle that he or she worries about constantly. We've never had any issues with SAV sons or daughters not working out for us in this environment. I think that combining Stone Gate's genetics with SAV produces a very good animal, especially females.

 

[Bright Raven]

James:

Lazy M is a good guy, down in Madison County. He DOES do this for a living and IMO is a bonafide Kentucky Producer. I almost sold him a bull. :cboy: I should tell you sometime about Gimli. Lol. Sometime you and I should get together and visit Luke. I have seen pictures of his cattle. His farm lies in the foothills, more like the Rowan County side of Fleming County. On the way over, we can stop in Clark County and get KY Hills out of bed. We can come back through Morehead and visit Kentuckyguy and Ringer. There are several Cattle Today users in this area.

You and I are in the heart of some great cattle country. Land that has made Great Cattleman like Boyd, Phillips, Canada, Cannon, etc.

You have generated more discussion than we have had in a couple years and I admire your mental toughness. Some on here complain about the snowflakes and yet there are more snowflakes falling here than there are in the south pole. I notice on this board that those who rail against this or that become what obviously offends them. The Burger King thread yesterday is a good example. There are more whiners here than in a gay rights march in Boston.

Having said the above:

1. My cattle carry more condition than pleases me. Why would you feed grain to a cow or bull that does not need it? That is one area that I disagree with you on.

2. If you are going to breed for 2000 pound cattle, you are going to work your way into a niche operation. Regardless of whether they are better or worse. The history of beef does not favorite that size animal. I would have to redesign my facility to handle cattle that large.

3. I give you kudos for being progressive. I don't think the beef industry as we know it has a long future but if it does last to the end of the century, genetics will be the foundation blocks.

4. I enjoy your enthusiasm and willingness to experiment. You have told me about your career over the last 15 years. Most here could only dream about that. That you came back to Kentucky to take over from your dad who is my age, speaks to how much enthusiasm you have. I hope you can keep the fire going.

Last, don't be too hard on Kentucky. Yes, the weather this year was awful but this is still great cattle and horse country.

 

[Lazy M]

James:

Lazy M is a good guy, down in Madison County. He DOES do this for a living and IMO is a bonafide Kentucky Producer. I almost sold him a bull. :cboy: I should tell you sometime about Gimli. Lol. Sometime you and I should get together and visit Luke. I have seen pictures of his cattle. His farm lies in the foothills, more like the Rowan County side of Fleming County. On the way over, we can stop in Clark County and get KY Hills out of bed. We can come back through Morehead and visit Kentuckyguy and Ringer. There are several Cattle Today users in this area.

You and I are in the heart of some great cattle country. Land that has made Great Cattleman like Boyd, Phillips, Canada, Cannon, etc.

You have generated more discussion than we have had in a couple years and I admire your mental toughness. Some on here complain about the snowflakes and yet there are more snowflakes falling here than there are in the south pole. I notice on this board that those who rail against this or that become what obviously offends them. The Burger King thread yesterday is a good example. There are more whiners here than in a gay rights march in Boston.

Having said the above:

1. My cattle carry more condition than pleases me. Why would you feed grain to a cow or bull that does not need it? That is one area that I disagree with you on.

2. If you are going to breed for 2000 pound cattle, you are going to work your way into a niche operation. Regardless of whether they are better or worse. The history of beef does not favorite that size animal. I would have to redesign my facility to handle cattle that large.

3. I give you kudos for being progressive. I don't think the beef industry as we know it has a long future but if it does last to the end of the century, genetics will be the foundation blocks.

4. I enjoy your enthusiasm and willingness to experiment. You have told me about your career over the last 15 years. Most here could only dream about that. That you came back to Kentucky to take over from your dad who is my age, speaks to how much enthusiasm you have. I hope you can keep the fire going.

Last, don't be too hard on Kentucky. Yes, the weather this year was awful but this is still great cattle and horse country.

Nope, the wife and I both have jobs in town. It seems like we have 3 full time jobs when you add in our kids and their sports interests. No rest for the wicked..
You guys are welcome to visit anytime, but we may need to wait on the mud to dry up a little bit.
BTW: How's my optimizer bull developing?

 

[Ebenezer]

A ton cow produces what sized feedlot steer with YG2 and prime?

 

[True Grit Farms]

Good post Raven. I appreciate Branded being on CT and his opinions on people and cattle. Even though I don't agree with how he thinks most of the time. Kentucky isn't the only place that's has had bad weather this year. We sold cows in May because we had to, no grass, no hay because of drought. Since then we've been covered up with rain, like in twice our adverage rain fall. It's easy to tell the difference between cows have had to earn a living and those that didn't. The breeding and genetics of the cow has very little to do with what condition a cow carries throughout the year. I think your smart enough to have realized that by now Raven, Branded not so much.
Branded what is your take on the Donna Angus cow family?

 

[tom4018]

TT participation medals are only given to people who feed hay in January with a cabless tractor. You may however, still receive a star sticker. I will drop that in the mail today.

What is this cab thing you speak of?

 

[MillennialRancher]

[/quote]
You are going on the assumption that an animal eats so much per pound of body weight. That is not correct. Yes, there is a definite correlation to weight and how much maintenance it takes, but it is not equal across the board. An 1800# cow does not eat twice as much as a 900# cow. This has been tested over and over by universities. Everyone tries to PROVE what size cow makes the most money, so consumption vs size has been analyzed. Many years ago, Universities tried to shove small cows down our throats, saying they were the most profitable. Now, they realize small frame size cows do NOT make the most net profit. A "moderate" cow, supposedly is most profitable, but that also varies depending on ENVIRONMENT. Some environment cannot hardly sustain a small cow, and some environment is more than adequate for a large cow.
You also need to take into consideration the salvage value of the larger cow. Just pointing out that it is not cut & dry.
[/quote]

I get what you're saying and every situation is different. I was just thinking out loud with some numbers I hand on hand. I just have a hard time believing a bigger cow is going to eat the same or less than a smaller cow. Same way Dwayne Johnson eats 5,000 calories a day to maintain
His body mass of 300#s or whatever it is and I can maintain my body mass eating 1,800 calories a day and I'm 185#. I guess there's too many variables to come up with any conclusion other than "it depends". I'm just a numbers guy and like to lay it out on paper.