Better Simmental Pic. . . .

[KNERSIE]

If you sell a bull for $600, why not just sell a good steer for the same amount and then there would be no risk in losing your good reputation.

Why go through the hassle of rasing bulls if there is no premium for doing so?

Just as a final note on the subject, Texassimmentals, there is alot that you and probably your father still need to learn about the beef industry, I get the impression you don't quite grasp the idea of what a bull should be yet. You have one very good simmental herdsire and that is definately a step in the right direction, but untill you have a cowherd that can match that bull, rather leave the bull breeding for the breeders. There is more (supposed to be at least) to a good registered bull than just the papers stating his ancestry.

 

[bigbull338]

if the bull calf is a keeper im sure not gonna sell him for $600.thats not even feeder price.if the bull is good enough to keep.then he will be sold for $1000 to $1200 at weaning to yearing age.

 

[TexasSimmentals]

Mr. DOC HARRIS,
I can read..........When I said What???? I would have liked you to explain your statement "Whatever"

I don't know what your feeder prices are where some of yall live but they are around $600 around these parts.........

KENRSIE.........
We are just beginning to work on our cow herd......getting the other breeds out and getting much stronger Simm. lines going............

 

[TexasSimmentals]

If you sell a bull for $600, why not just sell a good steer for the same amount and then there would be no risk in losing your good reputation.

Why go through the hassle of rasing bulls if there is no premium for doing so?

Just as a final note on the subject, Texassimmentals, there is alot that you and probably your father still need to learn about the beef industry, I get the impression you don't quite grasp the idea of what a bull should be yet. You have one very good simmental herdsire and that is definately a step in the right direction, but untill you have a cowherd that can match that bull, rather leave the bull breeding for the breeders. There is more (supposed to be at least) to a good registered bull than just the papers stating his ancestry.

Why not just leave them intact.....what is that going to hurt.....we are only going to take them to the auction anyways.........But I know........they will end up as breeding bulls......"There goes that market!"

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Mr. DOC HARRIS,
I can read..........When I said What???? I would have liked you to explain your statement "Whatever"

I don't know what your feeder prices are where some of yall live but they are around $600 around these parts.........

KENRSIE.........

• >>>We are just beginning to work on our cow herd<<<

......getting the other breeds out and getting much stronger Simm. lines going............

thats great ... don't need be afraid to put the knife to good use.its part of building a good herd. especially if you want too get in the registered end..

 

[KNERSIE]

If you sell a bull for $600, why not just sell a good steer for the same amount and then there would be no risk in losing your good reputation.

Why go through the hassle of rasing bulls if there is no premium for doing so?

Just as a final note on the subject, Texassimmentals, there is alot that you and probably your father still need to learn about the beef industry, I get the impression you don't quite grasp the idea of what a bull should be yet. You have one very good simmental herdsire and that is definately a step in the right direction, but untill you have a cowherd that can match that bull, rather leave the bull breeding for the breeders. There is more (supposed to be at least) to a good registered bull than just the papers stating his ancestry.

Why not just leave them intact.....what is that going to hurt.....we are only going to take them to the auction anyways.........But I know........they will end up as breeding bulls......"There goes that market!"

Steers and bulls develope differently, bulls tend to develope a bigger forequarter and steers a bigger hindquarter COMPARATIVELY when fed. Also the young bulls will ned up chasing the young heifers around all day by the time they get to about 5-6 months old. In that time some of them won't gain an ounce, especially in the heat as they run after the girls when they are supposed to eat and as you've seen cattle graze in herds. If the boss cow gets up to graze the rest will follow, when she decides to retire to the shade for a nap, they will follow again,get my drift. That is why most breeders seperate the cows with heifer calves from the cows with bullcalves at around this age. All this just makes for more hassle and the need for more pasture.

Another thing to consider is that in my area the feedlots will pay more for steers than feeder bulls. They have to castrate the feeder bulls anyway for the same reasons I stated above, this will cause health risk in a feedlot environment and cause a temporary setback where they won't gain as well as the steers.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

If you sell a bull for $600, why not just sell a good steer for the same amount and then there would be no risk in losing your good reputation.

Why go through the hassle of rasing bulls if there is no premium for doing so?

Just as a final note on the subject, Texassimmentals, there is alot that you and probably your father still need to learn about the beef industry, I get the impression you don't quite grasp the idea of what a bull should be yet. You have one very good simmental herdsire and that is definately a step in the right direction, but untill you have a cowherd that can match that bull, rather leave the bull breeding for the breeders. There is more (supposed to be at least) to a good registered bull than just the papers stating his ancestry.

Why not just leave them intact.....what is that going to hurt.....we are only going to take them to the auction anyways.........But I know........they will end up as breeding bulls......"There goes that market!"

Steers and bulls develope differently, bulls tend to develope a bigger forequarter and steers a bigger hindquarter COMPARATIVELY when fed. Also the young bulls will ned up chasing the young heifers around all day by the time they get to about 5-6 months old. In that time some of them won't gain an ounce, especially in the heat as they run after the girls when they are supposed to eat and as you've seen cattle graze in herds. If the boss cow gets up to graze the rest will follow, when she decides to retire to the shade for a nap, they will follow again,get my drift. That is why most breeders seperate the cows with heifer calves from the cows with bullcalves at around this age. All this just makes for more hassle and the need for more pasture.

• >>>>Another thing to consider is that in my area the feedlots will pay more for steers than feeder bulls. They have to castrate the feeder bulls anyway for the same reasons I stated above, this will cause health risk in a feedlot environment and cause a temporary setback where they won't gain as well as the steers.<<<<

that right there is the whole ball of wax...

 

[Brandonm22]

If you are going to advertise, keep back bulls in a seperate pen/field, feed them so they gain well, risk the $600 that the calf is worth at weaning (sold as a steer) etc then I think the MINIMUM a breeding age bull (12 months++) is worth is $1500.

 

[TexasSimmentals]

Ok.......this is ruffly our opperation

1) We sell our calves at ABOUT 6 1/2 - 9 months old *TO THE AUCTION*
2) We do not keep ANY bull calves
3) We DO KEEP some heifers
4) We have 2 bulls......different areas
5) Heifers that we keep we put with the opposite herd sire

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Ok.......this is ruffly our opperation

1) We sell our calves at ABOUT 6 1/2 - 9 months old *TO THE AUCTION*
2) We do not keep ANY bull calves
3) We DO KEEP some heifers
4) We have 2 bulls......different areas
5) Heifers that we keep we put with the opposite herd sire

that is ruffly the same as the majority of commercial operation's.. your still a long way from your goal yet. but you got a long life ahead of you yet. if you got 2 seperate herds concentrate hard on just one for awhile..put all the one that are questionable in the commercial herd and your top end in the other . you'll be suprized at how much progress you can make .

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

TxSim - I still don't think you understand what we are saying. We know you sell all your males at the AUCTION. I don't know about your area, but every place I hear about - the BUYERS at the AUCTION don't pay AS MUCH $$$$ for BULLS as they do for STEERS.
Do you have any idea how simple it is to STEER those bull calves???? Either by cutting or banding - at a day old or older.
Don't you see, you are losing money by not castrating your males?

 

[TexasSimmentals]

TxSim - I still don't think you understand what we are saying. We know you sell all your males at the AUCTION. I don't know about your area, but every place I hear about - the BUYERS at the AUCTION don't pay AS MUCH $$$$ for BULLS as they do for STEERS.
Do you have any idea how simple it is to STEER those bull calves???? Either by cutting or banding - at a day old or older.
Don't you see, you are losing money by not castrating your males?

We used to cut our calves. . . not real sure why we quit but. . . . .ya we used to cut them

 

[Brandonm22]

Jeanne a lot of it depends on your auction barn and your feeder calf buyers. Walter Prevatt (ag economist at Auburn) gave a presentation about that to a Master Cattleman's class I was in once and based on his data at some barns when you figure the 10-20 lost lbs in castrating there is no net gain in purchase price for the cow calf guy to castrate. At other barns it clearly pays. IF you sell everything at 205 days or earlier it is really no hassle for the feedlot or stocker too do the castrating when they work the calves. Now when you keep calves to 700, 800 lbs then it IS a big deal. I would still encourage everybody to castrate.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

TxSim - I still don't think you understand what we are saying. We know you sell all your males at the AUCTION. I don't know about your area, but every place I hear about - the BUYERS at the AUCTION don't pay AS MUCH $$$$ for BULLS as they do for STEERS.
Do you have any idea how simple it is to STEER those bull calves???? Either by cutting or banding - at a day old or older.
Don't you see, you are losing money by not castrating your males?

We used to cut our calves. . . not real sure why we quit but. . . . .ya we used to cut them

there are alot of calve's in the south that run through uncasterated.. so in a sence they feel like there's little or no dock because of the lack of competition from steered calves. they are but it's not one of the bigger impacts yet.. you can bet you will see a difference in your check

 

[Brandonm22]

I don't want to be too argumentative here because I do wish everybody would castrate before weaning but I do think we tend to exaggerate how much money that makes us.

I get the Alabama Livestock Market News every week.
This from April 25 (the one I just randomly grabbed off of the inbox without reading it first)

The Monday Sales (the other days don't have enough steers to even report on)
MED and Lrg 1 Feeder steers
350-400 114 (all rounded to nearest dollar)
400-450 113
450-500 109
500-550 105
550-600 103
600-650 98

MED and Lrg 1 Feeder Bulls
350-400 117 (all rounded to nearest dollar)
400-450 112
450-500 105
500-550 98
550-600 95
600-650 94

IF we assume that castrating cost you 10 pounds at market then by castrating per calf you made (or lost)
350-400 -$27 (all rounded to nearest dollar)
400-450 -$7
450-500 $9
500-550 $27
550-600 $37
600-650 $16

Med & Lrg 2 Feeder Steers
350-400 110 (all rounded to nearest dollar)
400-450 110
450-500 101
500-550 99
550-600 93
600-650 92

MED and Lrg 2 Feeder Bulls
350-400 113 (all rounded to nearest dollar)
400-450 107
450-500 100
500-550 97
550-600 91
600-650 87

IF we assume that castrating cost you 10 pounds at market then by castrating per calf you made (or lost)
350-400 -$23 (all rounded to nearest dollar)
400-450 $2
450-500 -$5
500-550 $1
550-600 $2
600-650 $23

I don't know if this is typical around the country or not (or even a typical sale day in Alabama); BUT it seems about right to me (though those liter calves brought more $$$ when corn was cheap). IF you sell those lite little 5-6 month old calves, there is no great advantage too castrating; because it is pretty easy for them too band/cut 400 lb calves. You start selling big strapping 7-8 month old bull calves where castrating gets difficult and they are going to start docking you for it. I would also expect bigger docks in the fall because of the volume of calves. The order buyers are scraping the bottom of the barrel to fill their orders this time of year so things like castrating, dehorning, color matter less than in the fall. The important thing is to know YOUR market and if they PAY more for steers give them steers.

 

[shanel]

Feeder Steers Medium and Large 1-2

Head Weight Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
12 200 - 245 223 $117.00-$130.00 123.14
24 250 - 295 276 $114.00-$132.50 121.80
67 300 - 345 325 $109.00-$129.00 118.56
71 350 - 395 370 $108.00-$124.00 115.50
85 400 - 445 425 $104.50-$121.00 112.65
100 450 - 495 470 $100.00-$120.00 110.53
130 500 - 549 521 $99.50-$115.00 108.59
134 550 - 596 571 $97.50-$113.00 106.11
97 600 - 645 620 $92.00-$110.00 103.65
59 650 - 690 665 $89.50-$108.00 101.02
57 700 - 745 719 $90.00-$105.00 99.64
10 760 - 795 777 $91.00-$99.00 94.80
6 805 - 845 825 $86.00-$97.00 92.23
58 850 - 850 850 $102.95-$102.95 102.95 Load

Feeder Bulls Medium and Large 1-2

Head Weight Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
7 300 - 345 331 $116.00-$122.00 118.97
49 350 - 398 378 $105.00-$124.00 114.81
108 400 - 445 428 $102.00-$119.00 110.87
178 450 - 497 473 $100.00-$117.00 108.35
158 500 - 545 524 $95.00-$111.50 105.66
154 550 - 596 573 $91.00-$110.00 101.78
124 600 - 648 623 $85.00-$106.00 97.41
73 650 - 695 674 $85.00-$104.00 93.16
50 700 - 748 719 $83.00-$97.50 90.40
13 750 - 780 762 $80.00-$91.00 86.19
9 810 - 835 819 $80.00-$88.50 84.39
10 850 - 880 862 $69.50-$82.00 75.57

This is the tennessee averege for last week

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Since TxSim is showing us pics of calves NOW, I would have to go out on a limb and ASSUME she will have calves to sell in the fall.
With the muscling her calves should possess thru weaning, again I will assume she will have "big strapping bull calves" at sale time.
Was that Master Cattlemen's talk based on weight loss from the actual stress of castration or was he saying steers won't gain as much as bulls? I do not believe if calves are castrated at a young age, there is any difference in weight at weaning due to stress.
Brandonm22 - using your figures, if her steers weighed 500#, she would gross $525 - bulls weighing 510# would gross $499.80. That's a NET profit of $25.20 per head (even with the added benefit of the 10#). Even if they weighed 20# more - you are still getting a $15.40 gain for steers.
And Tenn figures seem to be more in tune with what I would expect the differences to be.
I firmly believe it ALWAYS pays $$$ in your pocket to castrate - the sooner the better.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Since TxSim is showing us pics of calves NOW, I would have to go out on a limb and ASSUME she will have calves to sell in the fall.
With the muscling her calves should possess thru weaning, again I will assume she will have "big strapping bull calves" at sale time.
Was that Master Cattlemen's talk based on weight loss from the actual stress of castration or was he saying steers won't gain as much as bulls? I do not believe if calves are castrated at a young age, there is any difference in weight at weaning due to stress.
Brandonm22 - using your figures, if her steers weighed 500#, she would gross $525 - bulls weighing 510# would gross $499.80. That's a NET profit of $25.20 per head (even with the added benefit of the 10#). Even if they weighed 20# more - you are still getting a $15.40 gain for steers.
And Tenn figures seem to be more in tune with what I would expect the differences to be.
I firmly believe it ALWAYS pays $$$ in your pocket to castrate - the sooner the better.

Jeanne-

I agree with you regarding ..."it ALWAYS pays $$$ in your pocket to castrate..." for a variety of reasons - some of which are not even listed here. Dociliy of stock as time progresses, ease of handling through the backgrounding procedures, minimal aggressiveness toward other individuals in the herd - - there are many reasons which are subliminal in the overall protocol of proper management practices. It is NOT just the almighty DOLLAR which dictates reasonable and sensible livestock management technics to realize a profit in your business. There are times when $ - Dollar Signs - $ blind one to reality.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Doc - I totally agree! But, all the "added" benefits will also add to the $$$ at the end of the season, in one way or another. There are way too many calves left intact. Some due to lazyness, mismanagement, lack of ability (knowledge) and probably a lot to the fact that a purebred breeder thinks he has superior stock & ALL their bulls should be used for reproduction. NOT!!!!

 

[Brandonm22]

Was that Master Cattlemen's talk based on weight loss from the actual stress of castration or was he saying steers won't gain as much as bulls? I do not believe if calves are castrated at a young age, there is any difference in weight at weaning due to stress.

I never said that castrating a 200 lb nursing calf was stressful. MOST people generally accept that the same steers WOULD weigh 10 to 20 pounds MORE at weaning if they were intact due to the steroid hormones produced by the gonads. Many/most?? people implant to try to get most of that 20 pounds back. I do think that my numbers (and antedotal experience) tells me that IF you sell heavier calves certainly 550+++ calves that leaving them intact gets costly. Now many many folks (at least down here) calf in April and May and sell those 4 wt calves in October. I don't think castrating THOSE calves pays at all......at least it doesn't (most years) down here.