anyone NOT use mineral?

[rockridgecattle]

I am glad it has worked for you.
For us not so. Everthing that has happened this year on the farm is costly. Not only in the medications to treat, but in breed back on time for the cows. Cows which lack proper minerals will not breed back on time...costly. Cows with serious retained placenta issues rarely breed back on time. Weak calves lead to dead calves...hits directly on the pocket book and the bottom line. Lumpy Jaw can turn a really good cow into a worthless cow in short order if not caught quicky and be very expensive to treat.
We are in an iodine, copper and selenium deficient area
Copper is linked to the poor coats and red tinge on the black animals
Iodine is linked to lumpy jaw, woody tongue and foot rot. If you have ever had to fight the first two, you know it is an up hill battle only to be prevented by iodine
Selenium deficiency is linked to retained placenta, turned under hoofs of the calves at birth. Both of which can be very hard on the pocket book.
Weak calves, calves that need to be assisted after birth, stupid calves, linked not only to selenium but copper, vit a and d and e.
Now not saying the pnemonia and mastitis are directly linked to the lack of mineral. However, had they been consuming minerals properly, the body would not have had such a hard time recovering.

Finally, have you ever met a phosphorus or copper or calcium magnesium deficient cow? Let me recall from memory (15 years back).
pnemonia and matitis were issues, yes. But so were fence posts....could not keep one in the ground cause the cows ate them all....dang costly if you ask me.
Could not keep a tractor in the pasture unguarded for a moment...all the wiring stripped away in minutes...just by turning the back and taking twine off the bales
Milking fever...that is just not a pretty sight
and poor milk quality...well hits the pocket book pretty quickly.

You live in Kentucky. I live in Manitoba Canada. Completely different climates. We feed hay 7-8 months of the year. Doubt you have to do that.

 

[Banjo]

I am glad it has worked for you.
For us not so. Everthing that has happened this year on the farm is costly. Not only in the medications to treat, but in breed back on time for the cows. Cows which lack proper minerals will not breed back on time...costly. Cows with serious retained placenta issues rarely breed back on time. Weak calves lead to dead calves...hits directly on the pocket book and the bottom line. Lumpy Jaw can turn a really good cow into a worthless cow in short order if not caught quicky and be very expensive to treat.
We are in an iodine, copper and selenium deficient area
Copper is linked to the poor coats and red tinge on the black animals
Iodine is linked to lumpy jaw, woody tongue and foot rot. If you have ever had to fight the first two, you know it is an up hill battle only to be prevented by iodine
Selenium deficiency is linked to retained placenta, turned under hoofs of the calves at birth. Both of which can be very hard on the pocket book.
Weak calves, calves that need to be assisted after birth, stupid calves, linked not only to selenium but copper, vit a and d and e.
Now not saying the pnemonia and mastitis are directly linked to the lack of mineral. However, had they been consuming minerals properly, the body would not have had such a hard time recovering.

Finally, have you ever met a phosphorus or copper or calcium magnesium deficient cow? Let me recall from memory (15 years back).
pnemonia and matitis were issues, yes. But so were fence posts....could not keep one in the ground cause the cows ate them all....dang costly if you ask me.
Could not keep a tractor in the pasture unguarded for a moment...all the wiring stripped away in minutes...just by turning the back and taking twine off the bales
Milking fever...that is just not a pretty sight
and poor milk quality...well hits the pocket book pretty quickly.

You live in Kentucky. I live in Manitoba Canada. Completely different climates. We feed hay 7-8 months of the year. Doubt you have to do that.

Sounds like you really got your plate full. I can't imagine feeding hay that long. Here, maybe 90 days or less sometimes.. I used to have horses and they would chew on posts sometimes but I have never heard of cows that much doing it. i have to watch calves sometimes around tractors because they seem to want to chew on everything......I guess that is just from nursing......everything is a teat to them.
Question.....what is your soil like there? I would tend to think it would be pretty fertile....maybe from all the glaciers in the past or am I wrong there?

 

[dcara]

Someone may have already said this, if so, here it is again.

Have your forage and/or hay tested to determine what quantity of what minerals you need to be feeding for the different animals (i.e yeairlings, heifers, bred, etc). Many mineral suppliers will do this test for free if you buy their mineral. Otherwise the test cost about $30.

 

[djinwa]

My point in all this I guess is that I think we often times create imbalances by applying NPK especially N, while our fields are nice and dark from the N and growing a little faster .....only when it rains. We are destroying the humus
and life of the soil. Therefore we have all this lush pasture we have artificially created, but then on the other hand we see all these problems. my soil tests show that I am a little low on Phosphorus but it is was like that six years ago. I would have thought by now it should all be depleted but nothing has changed.
The more we can stay natural and sustainable the less imbalances we are going to create my farm isn't the best land in the country but I don't let it get out of balance.This is just my humble opinion.

The problem with being natural is that it isn't natural to ship off a hundred calves a year that are loaded with minerals taken out of the soil, and you don't get them back. Maybe if you could get the sewage from the consumers returned, it would be more natural.

Seems that if you keep sending away your soil nutrients, eventually they'll need replaced. One reason I buy hay is to rob my neighbor's land to improve mine.

 

[Anonymous]

My point in all this I guess is that I think we often times create imbalances by applying NPK especially N, while our fields are nice and dark from the N and growing a little faster .....only when it rains. We are destroying the humus
and life of the soil. Therefore we have all this lush pasture we have artificially created, but then on the other hand we see all these problems. my soil tests show that I am a little low on Phosphorus but it is was like that six years ago. I would have thought by now it should all be depleted but nothing has changed.
The more we can stay natural and sustainable the less imbalances we are going to create my farm isn't the best land in the country but I don't let it get out of balance.This is just my humble opinion.

The problem with being natural is that it isn't natural to ship off a hundred calves a year that are loaded with minerals taken out of the soil, and you don't get them back. Maybe if you could get the sewage from the consumers returned, it would be more natural.

Seems that if you keep sending away your soil nutrients, eventually they'll need replaced. One reason I buy hay is to rob my neighbor's land to improve mine.

Yep
:nod:

 

[fatcattle]

I have a friend and neighbor who quit using mineral about a year ago. He ai'd 100 heifers about a month ago, I did 150. We ran both sets through my pens and chute. All cattle received the same shots, were treated the exact same way. Needles were changed every 15 head. He got busy in hay season and didn't check them as well as he could have. Last week I helped him treat 9 with foot rot and 13 with injection site infections. The infections ranged in size from baseball to one the size of a basketball. I have no injection infections and one case of foot rot. Both sets of cattle are on similiar pasture. The only difference is I have kept out mineral and he hasn't. To me it makes mineral look cheap.

 

[Banjo]

I'll have to say that is the first time I have heard that argument. The hay taking off I can understand a little bit, but never heard of livestock walking it off. On the surface it seems plausible, but they say....people in the know...universties etc. that livestock return a high % of their nutrient intake back thru the manure and urine.
Overgrazing!!!!! is what destroys pasture and I have done my share of it over the years. Pulse grazing and then letting the pasture rest/recover for a certain length of time is what builds organic matter/and carbon in the soil.
What did farmers do for the thousands of years before water soluble ferilizers came along?

Question for anyone who wants to answer it: If a plants roots has as much mass below ground as above ground what have you lost? Nothing. When that same plants roots die back/pruned after being grazed and start growing back again what have you gained? Organic matter from the old roots. What happens when that cow can continually go back over that short 2 or 3 inch grass? It will have a shallow root system to match the top, which is very vulnerable to dry weather.
I don't know everything, but this much I know.

 

[3waycross]

I have a friend and neighbor who quit using mineral about a year ago. He ai'd 100 heifers about a month ago, I did 150. We ran both sets through my pens and chute. All cattle received the same shots, were treated the exact same way. Needles were changed every 15 head. He got busy in hay season and didn't check them as well as he could have. Last week I helped him treat 9 with foot rot and 13 with injection site infections. The infections ranged in size from baseball to one the size of a basketball. I have no injection infections and one case of foot rot. Both sets of cattle are on similiar pasture. The only difference is I have kept out mineral and he hasn't. To me it makes mineral look cheap.

I would be very interested to know how they conceived to the AI.

 

[fatcattle]

I have a friend and neighbor who quit using mineral about a year ago. He ai'd 100 heifers about a month ago, I did 150. We ran both sets through my pens and chute. All cattle received the same shots, were treated the exact same way. Needles were changed every 15 head. He got busy in hay season and didn't check them as well as he could have. Last week I helped him treat 9 with foot rot and 13 with injection site infections. The infections ranged in size from baseball to one the size of a basketball. I have no injection infections and one case of foot rot. Both sets of cattle are on similiar pasture. The only difference is I have kept out mineral and he hasn't. To me it makes mineral look cheap.

I would be very interested to know how they conceived to the AI.

I will keep you posted. I'm hoping that he comes out all right.

 

[Anonymous]

I'll have to say that is the first time I have heard that argument. The hay taking off I can understand a little bit, but never heard of livestock walking it off. On the surface it seems plausible, but they say....people in the know...universties etc. that livestock return a high % of their nutrient intake back thru the manure and urine.
Overgrazing!!!!! is what destroys pasture and I have done my share of it over the years. Pulse grazing and then letting the pasture rest/recover for a certain length of time is what builds organic matter/and carbon in the soil.
What did farmers do for the thousands of years before water soluble ferilizers came along?

Question for anyone who wants to answer it: If a plants roots has as much mass below ground as above ground what have you lost? Nothing. When that same plants roots die back/pruned after being grazed and start growing back again what have you gained? Organic matter from the old roots. What happens when that cow can continually go back over that short 2 or 3 inch grass? It will have a shallow root system to match the top, which is very vulnerable to dry weather.
I don't know everything, but this much I know.

Tell you what. Stock your land to normal capacity. Don't feed anything, don't add mineral, don't bring in any hay that hasn't been cut off the same land, and don't fertilize. Them sell all your calf
Crop, or whatever bovine product you sell.
Do that for 10 years and tell us your overall production numbers for 10 years running.
I'd bet youre bottom line drops very year

 

[herofan]

Our extension agent says one should never buy a mineral that is RED because it is full of iron oxide as a cheap filler.

I switched from block to loose mineral, and now there's something else I didn't know. I've looked at some different brands and such here, and they are all reddish in color. What color is the best mineral?

Finally, have you ever met a phosphorus or copper or calcium magnesium deficient cow? Let me recall from memory (15 years back).
pnemonia and matitis were issues, yes. But so were fence posts....could not keep one in the ground cause the cows ate them all....dang costly if you ask me.
Could not keep a tractor in the pasture unguarded for a moment...all the wiring stripped away in minutes...just by turning the back and taking twine off the bales

I often drive to the field on the tractor to check on and admire my 10 month old heifers. When I park, they will come over and sniff and nibble at the tires, wiring, and bush hog; however, it is casual and not hysterical; they haven't destroyed anything. They usually tarry a few minutes and move on. I assumed it was their gentle nature and curiosity. Does that sound normal?

 

[Banjo]

I'll have to say that is the first time I have heard that argument. The hay taking off I can understand a little bit, but never heard of livestock walking it off. On the surface it seems plausible, but they say....people in the know...universties etc. that livestock return a high % of their nutrient intake back thru the manure and urine.
Overgrazing!!!!! is what destroys pasture and I have done my share of it over the years. Pulse grazing and then letting the pasture rest/recover for a certain length of time is what builds organic matter/and carbon in the soil.
What did farmers do for the thousands of years before water soluble ferilizers came along?

Question for anyone who wants to answer it: If a plants roots has as much mass below ground as above ground what have you lost? Nothing. When that same plants roots die back/pruned after being grazed and start growing back again what have you gained? Organic matter from the old roots. What happens when that cow can continually go back over that short 2 or 3 inch grass? It will have a shallow root system to match the top, which is very vulnerable to dry weather.
I don't know everything, but this much I know.

Tell you what. Stock your land to normal capacity. Don't feed anything, don't add mineral, don't bring in any hay that hasn't been cut off the same land, and don't fertilize. Them sell all your calf
Crop, or whatever bovine product you sell.
Do that for 10 years and tell us your overall production numbers for 10 years running.
I'd bet youre bottom line drops very year

What is "Normal" stocking rate. Agmantoo says that he runs 1 cow and calf to 1.4 ac. with IRG.....thats pretty good
Most continuous grazing systems are probably 1 cow and calf to 2 to 3 ac or more depending on what part of the country you are in.
But I do plan on adding about 20 heifers that I have raised to the total herd and maybe that many more in 2 or 3 years. When cattle can roam from one end of the farm to the other any time they want, it doesn't seem to matter how many ac/hd. you have when it doesn't rain for a few weeks. The best thing I have ever done on the farm was start rotational grazing. Healthy soil= Healthy grass= Healthy cattle.
But like I said before I haven't used commercial fertilize in 6 years and the soil tests show that the soil isn't any better or worse now than it was then. My Ph is in the mid 6's range that kind of surprised me because my soil isn't deep rich soil like bottomland. If I was mining my soil wouldn't a soil test show it getting worse and worse.
In 2007 and '08 we had a pretty severe drought here and I had to buy some hay but I was continuous grazing then also but haven't had to buy any hay since then.
I plan on phasing out my haymaking over the next 2 or 3 years. If I can't graze year round, then I will buy my hay.
Trying to keep this equipment running is way too stressful. I only feed those 100 cows about 200 - 250 rolls thru the winter. So you will have to check back with me in about 4 more years and I'll give you an update.
By the way you didn't answer my questions above in my last posts.

 

[Banjo]

Our extension agent says one should never buy a mineral that is RED because it is full of iron oxide as a cheap filler.

I switched from block to loose mineral, and now there's something else I didn't know. I've looked at some different brands and such here, and they are all reddish in color. What color is the best mineral?

Finally, have you ever met a phosphorus or copper or calcium magnesium deficient cow? Let me recall from memory (15 years back).
pnemonia and matitis were issues, yes. But so were fence posts....could not keep one in the ground cause the cows ate them all....dang costly if you ask me.
Could not keep a tractor in the pasture unguarded for a moment...all the wiring stripped away in minutes...just by turning the back and taking twine off the bales

I often drive to the field on the tractor to check on and admire my 10 month old heifers. When I park, they will come over and sniff and nibble at the tires, wiring, and bush hog; however, it is casual and not hysterical; they haven't destroyed anything. They usually tarry a few minutes and move on. I assumed it was their gentle nature and curiosity. Does that sound normal?

Someone posted on here that the red is some kind of coloring and it isn't the iron oxide any more making it red. However, me personally I don't like anything with iron oxide in it, ferrous sulfate is better IMO. Southern States mineral is gray looking with no Iron oxide but their filler is ground limestone which is also cheap.
I don't fault any one for feeding minerals and I do think cattle do need salt,that's why I feed sea salt that has a myriad of trace minerals far more than the regular trace mineralised feed store salt..... sodium is very important at the cellular level.
If the guy whose mineral bill for 30 cows was $6000 yr then it would cost me $20000/yr. to do that for a 100 cows
If I spent $20000/yr on mineral and $20000/yr on fertilize or just half of that, then I would be better off to not get out of bed of a morning. Last year my feeders averaged $700/ea.....it would take almost 60 calves before I would see the first dime. Then if I bought several thousand dollars worth of feed and creep fed my calves and then after weaning, which i have done in the past. Where does it end!!! I might as well sell the farm if this is as good as it gets.

 

[1982vett]

Our extension agent says one should never buy a mineral that is RED because it is full of iron oxide as a cheap filler.

I switched from block to loose mineral, and now there's something else I didn't know. I've looked at some different brands and such here, and they are all reddish in color. What color is the best mineral?

Finally, have you ever met a phosphorus or copper or calcium magnesium deficient cow? Let me recall from memory (15 years back).
pnemonia and matitis were issues, yes. But so were fence posts....could not keep one in the ground cause the cows ate them all....dang costly if you ask me.
Could not keep a tractor in the pasture unguarded for a moment...all the wiring stripped away in minutes...just by turning the back and taking twine off the bales

I often drive to the field on the tractor to check on and admire my 10 month old heifers. When I park, they will come over and sniff and nibble at the tires, wiring, and bush hog; however, it is casual and not hysterical; they haven't destroyed anything. They usually tarry a few minutes and move on. I assumed it was their gentle nature and curiosity. Does that sound normal?

Someone posted on here that the red is some kind of coloring and it isn't the iron oxide any more making it red. However, me personally I don't like anything with iron oxide in it, ferrous sulfate is better IMO. Southern States mineral is gray looking with no Iron oxide but their filler is ground limestone which is also cheap.
I don't fault any one for feeding minerals and I do think cattle do need salt,that's why I feed sea salt that has a myriad of trace minerals far more than the regular trace mineralised feed store salt..... sodium is very important at the cellular level.
If the guy whose mineral bill for 30 cows was $6000 yr then it would cost me $20000/yr. to do that for a 100 cows
If I spent $20000/yr on mineral and $20000/yr on fertilize or just half of that, then I would be better off to not get out of bed of a morning. Last year my feeders averaged $700/ea.....it would take almost 60 calves before I would see the first dime. Then if I bought several thousand dollars worth of feed and creep fed my calves and then after weaning, which i have done in the past. Where does it end!!! I might as well sell the farm if this is as good as it gets.

The color which is best....is the one that closet matches your needs.....color is added to easily identify one product from another....

 

[herofan]

How exactly does one know their "needs." Can a person go to the local feed store and trust they can give you what you need, or do we have to be our own expert? How many different choices are there?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm beginning to smell an alias in the mix. Not sure yet.

 

[TexasBred]

[ Southern States mineral is gray looking with no Iron oxide but their filler is ground limestone which is also cheap.
I don't fault any one for feeding minerals and I do think cattle do need salt,that's why I feed sea salt that has a myriad of trace minerals far more than the regular trace mineralised feed store salt..... sodium is very important at the cellular level.

Limestone is cheap but is also the primary source of much of the calcium in the mineral so is much more than a filler. Most mineral formulations are tight enough that there actually is very little room left in the formulation for fillers. The little available space is usually used for things like dried molasses, CSM or distillers to make the mineral more palatable.

All salt is sea salt. Some has just been processed a bit differently and is marketed as "latest and greatest" and probably much more expensive. Not enough minerals in any of it to consider it a a mineral supplementation.

 

[Banjo]

[ Southern States mineral is gray looking with no Iron oxide but their filler is ground limestone which is also cheap.
I don't fault any one for feeding minerals and I do think cattle do need salt,that's why I feed sea salt that has a myriad of trace minerals far more than the regular trace mineralised feed store salt..... sodium is very important at the cellular level.

Limestone is cheap but is also the primary source of much of the calcium in the mineral so is much more than a filler. Most mineral formulations are tight enough that there actually is very little room left in the formulation for fillers. The little available space is usually used for things like dried molasses, CSM or distillers to make the mineral more palatable.

All salt is sea salt. Some has just been processed a bit differently and is marketed as "latest and greatest" and probably much more expensive. Not enough minerals in any of it to consider it a a mineral supplementation.

We may have to agree to disagree on the limestone, but I think it is a poor source of calcium, but it may take a long time for it to show up, everything that goes in doesn't automatically come out. I know that goes against conventional thinking. The guy that spoke about the reason we have hard water is because the minerals are water soluble. I live in an area where there are lots of homes with well water and this a heavily limestone rock area, a neighbor told me he tried to put a water filter on his water line and it would stop up in no time. There is a mobile home that I rent out next door to me and the water heater is a fourth full of mineral, some of that is sulphur. my point is if it is water soluble then obviously it can turn back to mineral again at some point. What keeps it from doing that in a cow, or a person!

You are right about the salt. I just like the sea salt because all sea salt has lots of trace minerals in it. It may not make a bit of difference. It cost me about $9 a 50#bag. Maybe in a 100 years the cows will have trace mineralized my whole farm.

 

[Banjo]

How exactly does one know their "needs." Can a person go to the local feed store and trust they can give you what you need, or do we have to be our own expert? How many different choices are there?

You have to use your own judgement, but it is highly unlikely that the guys at the feed store know any more than you do. I personally don't like oxides and inorganic sources like rocks. The really high quality organic and chelated minerals will start getting into your pocket pretty quick.
I think a person could feed some good alfalfa hay a couple of times a week and that would suffice IMO, but there again it starts getting expensive unless you have a few acres yourself you can bale.
Its probably not going to be the end of the world...whatever you choose to feed. The way to increase profits farming is by spending less IMO

 

[TexasBred]

We may have to agree to disagree on the limestone, but I think it is a poor source of calcium, but it may take a long time for it to show up, everything that goes in doesn't automatically come out. I know that goes against conventional thinking. The guy that spoke about the reason we have hard water is because the minerals are water soluble. I live in an area where there are lots of homes with well water and this a heavily limestone rock area, a neighbor told me he tried to put a water filter on his water line and it would stop up in no time. There is a mobile home that I rent out next door to me and the water heater is a fourth full of mineral, some of that is sulphur. my point is if it is water soluble then obviously it can turn back to mineral again at some point. What keeps it from doing that in a cow, or a person![/quote}
Banjo you're absolutely right about an animal not using everything that goes in. But like it or not most calcium in mineral will always be nothing more than limestone finely crushed. Minerals that are not water soluble will pass thru the cow and end up in your soil. Only about 15% of oxides are actually absorbed by the cow, 35% of the sulfates but more than 90% of amino acid complexes or chelates are absorbed. (Another good reason to carefully read the list of ingredients). The mineral will always meet the guarantees on the tag but the animal will not always utilize the amount shown.

I know what you mean about the water. Depending on your location sulfur can be a pretty stinky problem, West Texas is notorious for its "hard water" and East Texas for it's "soft water"....all caused by the concentration of calcium in the water, not to mention to numerous other minerals that may be in the water.