Another school shooting

[bball]

Greybeard,
It appears your issue is with the wording i am using. And probably with the US justice system as well. I will be the first to say, i firmly believe that some people can not be rehabilitated, mentally unstable or not. My solution to a problem of that nature is capital in nature.

 

[Bright Raven]

Greybeard,
It appears your issue is with the wording i am using. And probably with the US justice system as well. I will be the first to say, i firmly believe that some people can not be rehabilitated, mentally unstable or not. My solution to a problem of that nature is capital in nature.

The POTUS from his address to the nation:

Trump stressed the need to address mental health issues in America in his first public response to the shooting that killed 17 people at a Florida high school but steered clear of any discussion of gun laws in the US.

 

[dieselbeef]

there will be no more gun control..not last time..not this time...trump also made promises to the nra...

 

[bball]

Greybeard,
It appears your issue is with the wording i am using. And probably with the US justice system as well. I will be the first to say, i firmly believe that some people can not be rehabilitated, mentally unstable or not. My solution to a problem of that nature is capital in nature.

The POTUS from his address to the nation:

Trump stressed the need to address mental health issues in America in his first public response to the shooting that killed 17 people at a Florida high school but steered clear of any discussion of gun laws in the US.

In his speech, did he explain exactly how he's going to address the mental health issues in our country or is it just an ambiguous response with no clear plan? Working in healthcare, i can testify how few resources are available to the mentally ill, outside of pharmacological intervention. It can be a nightmare trying to get someone placement or help.

 

[bball]

there will be no more gun control..not last time..not this time...trump also made promises to the nra...

Gun control had never been the solution..more of a distraction from the real issue at hand.

 

[Bright Raven]

Greybeard,
It appears your issue is with the wording i am using. And probably with the US justice system as well. I will be the first to say, i firmly believe that some people can not be rehabilitated, mentally unstable or not. My solution to a problem of that nature is capital in nature.

The POTUS from his address to the nation:

Trump stressed the need to address mental health issues in America in his first public response to the shooting that killed 17 people at a Florida high school but steered clear of any discussion of gun laws in the US.

In his speech, did he explain exactly how he's going to address the mental health issues in our country or is it just an ambiguous response with no clear plan? Working in healthcare, i can testify how few resources are available to the mentally ill, outside of pharmacological intervention. It can be a nightmare trying to get someone placement or help.

Brad, it was brief. Mostly rhetoric. But mental health was where he seemed to put the blame.

 

[1wlimo]

There is a problem in itself parents, teachers or their peers let it go.

I think the problem is nearly every one. Take the films we watch where violence is used by the "hero" to fix most every problem. The people who want to use their own firearm to eliminate another who is doing wrong. In reality violence solves next to nothing. I know there are exceptions, Take Hitler, but then the political union and working together of the EU has vastly reduced the wars that were always ongoing in Europe historically.

Added to this the change in upbringing that most parents want to be theirs kids best friend instead of a parent and acepting that we have to upset our kids from time to time to be a good parent. For many parents this is a problem of them not being parented themselevs very well.

I think also the fact that the family is no longer seen as a perminant fixture. That instead of trying to fix things we throw them away. People do this with other people as much as they do with inanimate objects it seams.

 

[greybeard]

It doesnt excuse the behavior to identify it as being mentally or emotionally unstable.

It does (or tends to) in the eyes of the justice system we now have. If you think a line of 'mental experts' won't be paraded thru the courtroom and in front of the jury and public, just as they are always paraded thru the news articles and discussion groups such as this one, you are very much mistaken. You can watch for it to happen in coming days on TV and on internet video news. It goes (and has been going for a # of years) far beyond an investigative need or desire to find out 'what went wrong'. It's only a matter of time before the phrases "he fell thru the cracks" and "we as a society let him down" are being used.
Heck, in some of the commentary under news articles, they already are being used.

As far as 'education' being the reason there are fewer number of people going in to law enforcement, I don't buy that either. The number of college enrollees and graduates is very close to what it has been in the past and if anything has increased in raw numbers and per capita, especially in males and has been for a number of years.

Change it to "Smaller number of people with education that want to enter law enforcement" and I'll be on board, but it again goes back to why they don't want to.

 

[haase]

Don't really think the potus can solve this problem, it goes a lot further than him, what did the potus in 1999 do after the columbine shootings.

 

[bball]

It doesnt excuse the behavior to identify it as being mentally or emotionally unstable.

It does (or tends to) in the eyes of the justice system we now have. If you think a line of 'mental experts' won't be paraded thru the courtroom and in front of the jury and public, just as they are always paraded thru the news articles and discussion groups such as this one, you are very much mistaken. You can watch for it to happen in coming days on TV and on internet video news. It goes (and has been going for a # of years) far beyond an investigative need or desire to find out 'what went wrong'. It's only a matter of time before the phrases "he fell thru the cracks" and "we as a society let him down" are being used.

So your concern is this kid is going to go free? You honestly don't believe that??? It's important to understand what led up to this, but no one is going to excuse him because mom and dad died. I have faith in our justice system, despite what the media and sensationalist attornies have done to it. I guess I am just a tad less cynical than you are on this issue(that's hard for me to believe). Every defense attorney out there attempts to manipulate the justice system for their clients benefit it seems. Nothing new there.

 

[Bestoutwest]

There is a problem in itself parents, teachers or their peers let it go.

I have wondered about that. A teacher probably observes a warning sign - Do they report those? If they do, what are the authorities limitations under a free society to do anything without violating someone's rights?

When I was teaching there was a student that stated if he was in the woods with a gun and saw someone but they didn't see him, he would shoot them to see their head pop. I brought this up to administration and they hauled him in. He stated he was kidding and they dropped it. Thankfully he never killed anyone.

 

[bball]

As far as 'education' being the reason there are fewer number of people going in to law enforcement, I don't buy that either. The number of college enrollees and graduates is very close to what it has been in the past and if anything has increased in raw numbers and per capita, especially in males and has been for a number of years.

Change it to "Smaller number of people with education that want to enter law enforcement" and I'll be on board, but it again goes back to why they don't want to.

Well, there are several articles out there, easily found, that offer several reasons; strong economy so better job opportunities for EDUCATED job seekers, invasive hiring process, low pay, fluctuating long hours, public scrutiny, generational differences, etc. Much of which was previously mentioned. Again, one quick search will open up a multitude of articles addressing the topic if you wish to read specifics.

 

[HDRider]

Mental illness is an easy generalized cop-out. It is basic society. Contstructs life goals for kids at each stage of their life and ostracizes or critiques those who don't fit those plans. These are the clothes you will wear, these are the people you will associate with, these will be the classes you will take, these are the grades you will get, these are the extra curricular so you will do, these are the people you will take a sexual interest in, etc, etc.

I knew a guy in my high school grade, James, that wanted to execute multiple people in the school - preppy, obnoxious people who thought they were better than everyone else and made it known, teachers who accepted such behaviour, etc. Mentioned a few times to me about bringing a gun to school, but said he would give me a 'heads up' as I was one of the 'good guys' . Wiping the filth and sin from the school was his plan. He was very religious. Carried the Bible around with him all the time and was very quick to quote scripture to students and teachers alike. Very nice guy, and we got along well, liked to debate ideologies. He actually went on to become an ordained minister. But he would get so disgusted with people and their sin that I thought for sure he was going to 'clean house' one day.

"Disconnected youth" they call them. Blame it on mental illness. Not always - I don't buy it.

Aaron,
Why do you think Canada does not have school shootings?

 

[herofan]

There are multiple issues going on that require multiple solutions.

Short term... how incompetent of a school is still allowing people to walk in with guns? Seriously if you have kids in school go inspect their campuses. Even our population 2K county has locked doors at the school and brings every one in thru multiple doors by personell. They also added doors to section off wings if there is an incident. You don't even know it until some one walks you thru the design

The current problem is that there is no way to prevent something like this 100 percent. When I was a student, every door in the building was wide open. Today, there are two doors open for students to enter in the mornings, and there are adult monitors at each. The rest of the day, there is one door through which people may enter, and that is through the office. We have a school officer at school and all kinds of other policies and procedures for safety. All these procedures will probably greatly reduce the amount of time an incident can go on and reduce the number of casualties; however, if someone wants to do something and they give it any though whatsoever, there is nothing that can prevent someone from going crazy for a few seconds, and a lot of terrible things can happen in just a few seconds.

 

[Brute 23]

There are multiple issues going on that require multiple solutions.

Short term... how incompetent of a school is still allowing people to walk in with guns? Seriously if you have kids in school go inspect their campuses. Even our population 2K county has locked doors at the school and brings every one in thru multiple doors by personell. They also added doors to section off wings if there is an incident. You don't even know it until some one walks you thru the design

The current problem is that there is no way to prevent something like this 100 percent. When I was a student, every door in the building was wide open. Today, there are two doors open for students to enter in the mornings, and there are adult monitors at each. The rest of the day, there is one door through which people may enter, and that is through the office. We have a school officer at school and all kinds of other policies and procedures for safety. All these procedures will probably greatly reduce the amount of time an incident can go on and reduce the number of casualties; however, if someone wants to do something and they give it any though whatsoever, there is nothing that can prevent someone from going crazy for a few seconds, and a lot of terrible things can happen in just a few seconds.

Although I agree with you that is not what is happening in these shooting. These kids aren't MacGyver sneaking in these schools and making weapons out of what what ever is around them. In all these school shooting you will find a breakdown some where. These shooters are not professionals. They are wanna bee-s who learn how to do this from YouTube and video games.

 

[JW IN VA]

When I was teaching there was a student that stated if he was in the woods with a gun and saw someone but they didn't see him, he would shoot them to see their head pop. I brought this up to administration and they hauled him in. He stated he was kidding and they dropped it. Thankfully he never killed anyone.[/quote]Best out west

IMO anyone who makes a threat such as he did should be held by the authorities for evaluation by a trained mental health professional.I don't mean someone who just got their degree,either.
In Va,we have a 24 hr."cool down" period for domestic issues which isn't perfect but it's a start.Jails can hold a drunk for 23 hours and 59 mins.Probably doesn't happen much but can.We also have a poor record of fully addressing mental health issues.Went from locking them up(women) for being a nag almost to "treat and street".Get 'em on meds and turn 'em out then some stop their meds because of lack of money or they don't like how it makes them feel.A per centage wind up in jail and the process starts over.

 

[herofan]

There are multiple issues going on that require multiple solutions.

Short term... how incompetent of a school is still allowing people to walk in with guns? Seriously if you have kids in school go inspect their campuses. Even our population 2K county has locked doors at the school and brings every one in thru multiple doors by personell. They also added doors to section off wings if there is an incident. You don't even know it until some one walks you thru the design

The current problem is that there is no way to prevent something like this 100 percent. When I was a student, every door in the building was wide open. Today, there are two doors open for students to enter in the mornings, and there are adult monitors at each. The rest of the day, there is one door through which people may enter, and that is through the office. We have a school officer at school and all kinds of other policies and procedures for safety. All these procedures will probably greatly reduce the amount of time an incident can go on and reduce the number of casualties; however, if someone wants to do something and they give it any though whatsoever, there is nothing that can prevent someone from going crazy for a few seconds, and a lot of terrible things can happen in just a few seconds.

Although I agree with you that is not what is happening in these shooting. These kids aren't MacGyver sneaking in these schools and making weapons out of what what ever is around them. In all these school shooting you will find a breakdown some where. These shooters are not professionals. They are wanna bee-s who learn how to do this from YouTube and video games.

You may be correct. I've heard the basics of this situation, but I don't know specifics. What was the breakdown that allowed this to happen?

 

[hurleyjd]

What is the common denominator with all of the mass shootings. Is it their weapon of choice which appears to be an assault type rifle or large capacity automatic pistol.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

mental illness is a given....

but what about schools makes them want to target schools?

Schools are "soft" targets. Gun-free zones. Areas where there are many fish in many small barrels ------------ lots of students in each classroom or cafeteria. Students are taught, these days, to hide in a corner, hide in a closet. The shooters know this.

What has changed? Societal attitudes have changed. More emphasis on being 'politically correct'. Not wanting to have "hurt feelings", everybody is the same.

Other changes, the younger generation (younger than me and several others on this board) have more single-parent homes than before. Many of these single parent homes (not all) have very limited exposure to the fathers/male "figures". Also, the younger generations have less time in church or a church influence.

What else changed? mental institutions, sanitariums and the like were closed down and the residents/patients didn't have very many places to go.

And yes, before anyone goes picking fights, I'm not trying to pick or start a fight, and yes, I am speaking in generalities.

And before I get yelled at for "slamming" single parent homes, I'm not slamming them. I was raised in a single parent home, the #4 child out 6. However, our dad was an active participant in our lives and we did see a lot of him and the examples and expectations he had for us.

The preceeding was just my humble opinion and :2cents: .

 

[greybeard]

What has changed? Societal attitudes have changed. More emphasis on being 'politically correct'. Not wanting to have "hurt feelings", everybody is the same.

Getting close now.