Another school shooting

[Bright Raven]

so a semi auto rifle of any kind that only holds 5 rds will slow down a shooter carrying 10 mags? cuz 50 rds in 2 mags is still 100 bullets. im sure you know how long it takes to change mag out...2-3 secs...

how many rds were spent at school shootings?...idk..but im betting not over 30 or so

That happened a couple years ago here. Kid brought multiple 5 round clips to school. Killed 3? but ran into problems ejecting and inserting clips and that is when they took him down.

Any motion beyond point and shoot hampers a killer's speed and success.

That is why a pump shotgun terrifies me more, it never comes out of the fight. You can be reloading as you continue to lay down fire if you know what your doing. If you have one of the older Winchester's that was designed to slam fire talk about a destructive force.
Load that dude up with #4 buckshot thats 26 24 cal pellets per shot.

Let's hope would be mass shooters don't learn that!

 

[haase]

She stated that he was aware of what was going on and what happened and was remorseful, not sure how that goes with insanity.

 

[haase]

And we already know it was premeditated.

 

[Bestoutwest]

One big problem that I see in America, which is not addressed on here, is manliness. Being a man, being tough. I see it on here all the time. "Our men have become pussies." There is this pervasive attitude in America to be a man and take no **** from anyone. Well, what does it mean to "be a man?" I think that has become quite skewed, honestly, by the media and the internet. Our manly role models have become thugs, gangsters, MMA fighters, and just deplorable people. We are not celebrating heroes in the community putting food on strangers' tables, or creating jobs. It's the guy that is physically tougher than some other guy. This thinking, in my opinion, is perpetuating this attitude that to be a man, you must exhibit violence so others are afraid of you.

I also see a ton, a literal ton, of violent media being put out. During the Super Bowl, one of the first commercials was to promote a violent movie where all the solutions where solved by using guns. Bring back Viagra commercials b/c I'll explain that to my child any day instead of having to explain why there's so much violence. Look at your local listings. The family sitcoms have been replaced with shows that deal with solving murders or stopping terrorism. Not only is it monotonous and lazy, but it creates fear in people that is not warranted.

Video games are massively out of line. I grew up with all sorts of wacky, weird games and sports games. That's all we had. Now, everything is "shoot this alien" or "shoot these people in war." Don't even get me started on the Grand Theft Auto games. On your phone, right now, you can download dozens of games aimed at killing people.

Go to Youtube and it's a veritable potpourri of violence from music videos, video game walk throughs, movie trailers, and then there's a whole genre of street fighting/road rage videos you can watch that have literal MILLIONS of hits. If you take 2 seconds to look, you can find videos of people shooting other people. To the right brain, this is going to be a dramatic catalyst into perpetuating violent acts. One of the motivating factors for Adam Lanza was notoriety and this need to hold a record in mass shooting casualties.

Let's be honest here. We as a society are awash in violence. Child brains are not formed enough to understand the difference. Many do get it, but it only takes one child to do a lot of damage. It's often said that it takes a village to raise a child, and America as a collective village has really dropped the ball. Instead of creating solutions, we're all finger pointing. It's on here, too, calling Democrats dumocrats, and throwing liberal around like it's a dirty word. Gun control is not the answer because that ship has sailed. There are too many guns out there, and if someone is determined enough they will get their hands on one. If that fails, making explosives is one click away on the internet.

Like terrorism, I believe this is going to become part of our new normal, and we're going to have to just learn to live with it. That's a very scary sentence to write out. Because there is still no amount of gun control, or mental health funding, or praying that is going to stop this. Stuff happens, and God I hope it really, really slows down.

 

[Bright Raven]

She stated that he was aware of what was going on and what happened and was remorseful, not sure how that goes with insanity.

Mentally ill patients can be remorseful. Remember, she has an ethical obligation to provide the best defense she is capable of. I don't think you can find anything to support your thesis that a mentally ill person is incapable of regreting an act they admit to having performed. No more than a husband might be remorseful for beating his wife.

 

[Bright Raven]

And we already know it was premeditated.

No we don't know. That has to be proven in court.

 

[bball]

She stated that he was aware of what was going on and what happened and was remorseful, not sure how that goes with insanity.

Remorseful? Would be fascinated to know if this is merely a defense attorney tactic(humanize the perpetrator), or if he is truly capable of feeling remorse. He may be sorry he was apprehended or didnt die during, but it's hard to fathom being capable of feelings like remorse or empathy and doing what he has done.

 

[Bright Raven]

And we already know [ the media reports suggests] it was premeditated.

Here is what you should have said.

 

[Bestoutwest]

She stated that he was aware of what was going on and what happened and was remorseful, not sure how that goes with insanity.

Remorseful? Would be fascinated to know if this is merely a defense attorney tactic(humanize the perpetrator), or if he is truly capable of feeling remorse. He may be sorry he was apprehended or didnt die during, but it's hard to fathom being capable of feelings like remorse or empathy and doing what he has done.

Seems like the insanity defense is off the table:
In states that allow the insanity defense, defendants must prove to the court that they did not understand what they were doing; failed to know right from wrong; acted on an uncontrollable impulse or some variety of these factors.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-pr ... fense.html

 

[Bright Raven]

She stated that he was aware of what was going on and what happened and was remorseful, not sure how that goes with insanity.

Remorseful? Would be fascinated to know if this is merely a defense attorney tactic(humanize the perpetrator), or if he is truly capable of feeling remorse. He may be sorry he was apprehended or didnt die during, but it's hard to fathom being capable of feelings like remorse or empathy and doing what he has done.

Seems like the insanity defense is off the table:
In states that allow the insanity defense, defendants must prove to the court that they did not understand what they were doing; failed to know right from wrong; acted on an uncontrollable impulse or some variety of these factors.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-pr ... fense.html

That does not preclude his counsel from presenting his state of mind. It is relevant to his defense to mitigate his sentence if he is found guilty.

 

[slick4591]

Mentally ill patients can be remorseful. Remember, she has an ethical obligation to provide the best defense she is capable of. I don't think you can find anything to support your thesis that a mentally ill person is incapable of regreting an act they admit to having performed. No more than a husband might be remorseful for beating his wife.

I'll agree with Ron's statement. An attorney is obligated to do the very best they can for their client, whatever the circumstances. Probably, in this case, their best will be to try and keep him from getting a death sentence.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Remorseful? Would be fascinated to know if this is merely a defense attorney tactic(humanize the perpetrator), or if he is truly capable of feeling remorse. He may be sorry he was apprehended or didnt die during, but it's hard to fathom being capable of feelings like remorse or empathy and doing what he has done.

Seems like the insanity defense is off the table:
In states that allow the insanity defense, defendants must prove to the court that they did not understand what they were doing; failed to know right from wrong; acted on an uncontrollable impulse or some variety of these factors.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-pr ... fense.html

That does not preclude his counsel from presenting his state of mind. It is relevant to his defense to mitigate his sentence if he is found guilty.

If he is remorseful, he is capable of knowing right and wrong, therefore unable to use the insanity defense. Yes, this will be mitigating in sentencing, but so is the fact that 17 people are dead. This young man is headed to death row.

 

[Bright Raven]

Seems like the insanity defense is off the table:
In states that allow the insanity defense, defendants must prove to the court that they did not understand what they were doing; failed to know right from wrong; acted on an uncontrollable impulse or some variety of these factors.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-pr ... fense.html

That does not preclude his counsel from presenting his state of mind. It is relevant to his defense to mitigate his sentence if he is found guilty.

If he is remorseful, he is capable of knowing right and wrong, therefore unable to use the insanity defense. Yes, this will be mitigating in sentencing, but so is the fact that 17 people are dead. This young man is headed to death row.

Best. No one can say that. I suspect he will be found guilty but I would not speculate on his sentence.

Now: are you sure knowing right from wrong means you are sane?

 

[bball]

One big problem that I see in America, which is not addressed on here, is manliness. Being a man, being tough. I see it on here all the time. "Our men have become pussies." There is this pervasive attitude in America to be a man and take no be nice from anyone. Well, what does it mean to "be a man?" I think that has become quite skewed, honestly, by the media and the internet. Our manly role models have become thugs, gangsters, MMA fighters, and just deplorable people. We are not celebrating heroes in the community putting food on strangers' tables, or creating jobs. It's the guy that is physically tougher than some other guy. This thinking, in my opinion, is perpetuating this attitude that to be a man, you must exhibit violence so others are afraid of you.

I also see a ton, a literal ton, of violent media being put out. During the Super Bowl, one of the first commercials was to promote a violent movie where all the solutions where solved by using guns. Bring back Viagra commercials b/c I'll explain that to my child any day instead of having to explain why there's so much violence. Look at your local listings. The family sitcoms have been replaced with shows that deal with solving murders or stopping terrorism. Not only is it monotonous and lazy, but it creates fear in people that is not warranted.

Video games are massively out of line. I grew up with all sorts of wacky, weird games and sports games. That's all we had. Now, everything is "shoot this alien" or "shoot these people in war." Don't even get me started on the Grand Theft Auto games. On your phone, right now, you can download dozens of games aimed at killing people.

Go to Youtube and it's a veritable potpourri of violence from music videos, video game walk throughs, movie trailers, and then there's a whole genre of street fighting/road rage videos you can watch that have literal MILLIONS of hits. If you take 2 seconds to look, you can find videos of people shooting other people. To the right brain, this is going to be a dramatic catalyst into perpetuating violent acts. One of the motivating factors for Adam Lanza was notoriety and this need to hold a record in mass shooting casualties.

Let's be honest here. We as a society are awash in violence. Child brains are not formed enough to understand the difference. Many do get it, but it only takes one child to do a lot of damage. It's often said that it takes a village to raise a child, and America as a collective village has really dropped the ball. Instead of creating solutions, we're all finger pointing. It's on here, too, calling Democrats dumocrats, and throwing liberal around like it's a dirty word. Gun control is not the answer because that ship has sailed. There are too many guns out there, and if someone is determined enough they will get their hands on one. If that fails, making explosives is one click away on the internet.

Like terrorism, I believe this is going to become part of our new normal, and we're going to have to just learn to live with it. That's a very scary sentence to write out. Because there is still no amount of gun control, or mental health funding, or praying that is going to stop this. Stuff happens, and God I hope it really, really slows down.

BOW,
While i respect your thoughts on this and respect you as someone who makes a genuine attempt to be balanced, i disagree with a good deal of what you wrote. Manliness? Never in this cultures history, have the lines been more blurred when it comes to gender and role identity.
We grew up with manly men like John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Charles Bronson, Schwarzenegger, Stallone and Willis kickin azz with fists and guns. Violence has been a mainstay in humanity from the very beginning.
What baffles me is: what is happening now, that impacts an extremely small percentage of these guys and prompts them to behave this way. Bullying is as old as time and virtually everyone has experienced it at some point. Millions of kids play violent video games and watch violence on TV/internet and do not act in this manner.
I believe there are a few factors, that when all aligned, create this 'perfect hole in the cheese'. The vast majority of humans possess empathy. I suspect this is a vital missing ingrediant to these people (one factor) . America has the greatest percentage of sociopaths(read lack empathy) in the world per capita. It is believed to be due to our competitive, capitalistic nature - win at all costs. This, coupled with our personal liberties, could be a reason we see mass shooting scenarios more than anywhere else.
Whatever prompts this type of behavior (and I still maintain the breakdown of the family unit is a major factor) it very negatively impacts a select few, while many others are not impacted.

 

[ChrisB]

Hate to say it, but I don't know if there is a way to stop it. Make it impossible to enter the school? They will sit outside and wait for the school day to end, or call in a bomb threat and start shooting when the kids exit the building. Ban the weapon of choice - AR-15? They will just use something else? Better mental health screening? What will that really do unless we start locking everyone up that's a little different? Try and change society so parents do a better job? Good luck with that unless we want the government to take over raising our kids.

Maybe reducing the amount of violence on tv, movies, video games, music, etc. might have some effect. But very few adults are willing to give these things up and you will hear arguments about freedom of expression, or censorship, etc. Maybe more sever punishment for minor offenses? That might be the best place to start imho.

I know this thread is about school shootings, and someone asked why schools? I'm guessing that it is just because school is such a central part of their life and where people know who they are. I don't think being a soft target has anything to do with it. Remember there are mass shootings at nightclubs, concerts, movie theaters, churches, family gatherings, places of business, etc. these aren't traditionally soft targets.

Most shooters seem to have 2 things in common - they are males, and they have a history of violence. Maybe we as a society need to do a better job addressing violent behavior in it's early stages instead of light punishment? Since nobody seems to agree on the cause, there sure won't be any solutions.

 

[haase]

My statement has nothing to do if the attorney is doing her job right, the comment about knowing what happened and knowing what's going on doesn't go well with insanity. As far as pre meditation, the we part knowing has nothing to do with the courts or jury, it has do with what we have learned about his past, imo it was planned.

 

[Bestoutwest]

BOW,
While i respect your thoughts on this and respect you as someone who makes a genuine attempt to be balanced, i disagree with a good deal of what you wrote. Manliness? Never in this cultures history, have the lines been more blurred when it comes to gender and role identity.
We grew up with manly men like John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Charles Bronson, Schwarzenegger, Stallone and Willis kickin azz with fists and guns. Violence has been a mainstay in humanity from the very beginning.
What baffles me is: what is happening now, that impacts an extremely small percentage of these guys and prompts them to behave this way. Bullying is as old as time and virtually everyone has experienced it at some point. Millions of kids play violent video games and watch violence on TV/internet and do not act in this manner.
I believe there are a few factors, that when all aligned, create this 'perfect hole in the cheese'. The vast majority of humans possess empathy. I suspect this is a vital missing ingrediant to these people (one factor) . America has the greatest percentage of sociopaths(read lack empathy) in the world per capita. It is believed to be due to our competitive, capitalistic nature - win at all costs. This, coupled with our personal liberties, could be a reason we see mass shooting scenarios more than anywhere else.
Whatever prompts this type of behavior (and I still maintain the breakdown of the family unit is a major factor) it very negatively impacts a select few, while many others are not impacted.

While you are correct that violence has always been part of culture, and is in fact in a decline on the whole, the examples you listed all have one thing in common: they are heroes defeating the bad guys. Look at the role models being promoted in our society through movies and sports at this point. There, of course, is no one definitively saying "these are your role models" but kids without good solid role models at home will latch on. Heck, I see adults drooling over these guys, hoping to catch a little of their "magic" themselves.: Both Connor McGreagor and Floyd Mayweather Jr. literally beat people up and make millions of dollars doing it (which they flaunt). The media loves to point out any football star that has a domestic violence problem. Most of those guys are not removed from the spotlight for very long. Current rap acts continuously talk about violence as a road to fame and fortune all while expounding the virtues of taking no crap. We have youths that shoot other youths because they looked at them "disrespectfully." Movies like Goodfellas and American Gangster promote the lifestyle of fame, money, power through extreme violence and being the most macho around. My point was, that while this is definitely not the sole issue, it does not help. The liberal side wants gun control as the end-all-be-all simple solution to this. The conservatives are wanting MORE guns in schools. The reality is, is that there are so many issues funneling into this that one, two, three or five fixes still won't lead to a definitive decline.

 

[bball]

Hate to say it, but I don't know if there is a way to stop it. Make it impossible to enter the school? They will sit outside and wait for the school day to end, or call in a bomb threat and start shooting when the kids exit the building. Ban the weapon of choice - AR-15? They will just use something else? Better mental health screening? What will that really do unless we start locking everyone up that's a little different? Try and change society so parents do a better job? Good luck with that unless we want the government to take over raising our kids.

Maybe reducing the amount of violence on tv, movies, video games, music, etc. might have some effect. But very few adults are willing to give these things up and you will hear arguments about freedom of expression, or censorship, etc. Maybe more sever punishment for minor offenses? That might be the best place to start imho.

I know this thread is about school shootings, and someone asked why schools? I'm guessing that it is just because school is such a central part of their life and where people know who they are. I don't think being a soft target has anything to do with it. Remember there are mass shootings at nightclubs, concerts, movie theaters, churches, family gatherings, places of business, etc. these aren't traditionally soft targets.

Most shooters seem to have 2 things in common - they are males, and they have a history of violence. Maybe we as a society need to do a better job addressing violent behavior in it's early stages instead of light punishment? Since nobody seems to agree on the cause, there sure won't be any solutions.

Thank heaven somebody 'gets it'!

 

[Bright Raven]

Hate to say it, but I don't know if there is a way to stop it. Make it impossible to enter the school? They will sit outside and wait for the school day to end, or call in a bomb threat and start shooting when the kids exit the building. Ban the weapon of choice - AR-15? They will just use something else? Better mental health screening? What will that really do unless we start locking everyone up that's a little different? Try and change society so parents do a better job? Good luck with that unless we want the government to take over raising our kids.

Maybe reducing the amount of violence on tv, movies, video games, music, etc. might have some effect. But very few adults are willing to give these things up and you will hear arguments about freedom of expression, or censorship, etc. Maybe more sever punishment for minor offenses? That might be the best place to start imho.

I know this thread is about school shootings, and someone asked why schools? I'm guessing that it is just because school is such a central part of their life and where people know who they are. I don't think being a soft target has anything to do with it. Remember there are mass shootings at nightclubs, concerts, movie theaters, churches, family gatherings, places of business, etc. these aren't traditionally soft targets.

Most shooters seem to have 2 things in common - they are males, and they have a history of violence. Maybe we as a society need to do a better job addressing violent behavior in it's early stages instead of light punishment? Since nobody seems to agree on the cause, there sure won't be any solutions.

Thank heaven somebody 'gets it'!

I agree. A great summary statement. The only flaw is maybe there is no agreement on cause because each case is unique. The only common threads are:

1. Males
2. Mass shootings with firearms
3. Mental illness/ violence

 

[HDRider]

What if the reason for all these shootings is as simple as the shooters wanting to be famous and to go out guns blazing?