Another bull to judge

[haymaker]

He is 13 months, I would like better milk numbers on his epd's, but I like his BW numbers he should be good on heifers.
His sire is OCC Great Plains

EPDs - BW WW YW MILK
-0.7 42.3 87.0 .76

http://cattletoday.com/photos/data/500/ ... 000990.jpg[/img]

 

[Three T]

haymaker,
Check your milk # , think you put the accurracy # instead off the milk #. if not :shock:

 

[haymaker]

You are correct the milk # is 7.6 Thanks

 

[ENNOT]

If he only has a 7.6 milk epd, you just wasted your money on heifers you may keep in you herd. For a young sire, he should at least have a +18 milk epd to make it past the castration knife.

 

[lakading]

Is it just me or does his head look awful big compared to the rest of him.?.?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Haymaker- What is the average Milk EPD of your cow herd? A milk EPD of 7.6 sounds a little suspect to me, however it depends on what your HERD average is in order to ascertain whether that is too low an EPD or not.

Also - for discussion purposes - let's project a hypothetical situation, which is probably NOT so hypothetical, however let's imagine this situation: A Breeder has a cow of which he is very proud - with one exception! She has difficulty in producing enough milk to properly raise a calf to weaning and weighing half of her body weight at 205 days. Her Milk epd is +8. the milk EPD is that part of a calf's weaning weight attributed to milk and mothering ability. The Breeder mates her to a bull with a milk EPD of +18. The resullting calf from that mating (Bull or Heifer) possesses a Milk EPD of +13 ( +18 plus +8 = 26 divided by 2=+13.) Let's assume that the Breeder KEEPS the BULL calf to sexual maturity and mates him to a female with a milk EPD of +33. The resulting progeny show a milk EPD of +23(+33 plus +13 divided by 2 = +23). The progeny is retained and bred to a mate with a milk EPD of +30. THAT progeny produces an offspring with a milk EPD of +27. (Figured the same mathematical way as before.) The F4 Generation (which follows and is next in line) is bred to a mate with a milk EPD of 40! (There are a few around at this point in time!) +40 plus +27 = +67, divided by 2 = 33.5. NOW - the fifth generation mating brings the percentage of "pureness" to 96.875% and the sixth generation brings it to 98.4375% - which is pretty darned close to 100%, which, of course, mathematically, can never be reached - HOWEVER - pragmatically it has ALREADY BEEN REACHED! Close enough, anyway.

My point is - in achieving this hypothetical degree of "MILK EPD" -DESIRABILITY??? we have created a monster of sorts - reduced Carcass $Values and minimized Hindquarter development resulting in "FUNNEL BUTTS" , and lessened Rib Eye measurements. MY PERSONAL OPINION: in some breeds (Angus particularly) the concentration of HIGHER AND HIGHER Milk EPDs is causing a depletion of some of the traits that made desirable and optimal self-sufficient brood cows of years ago a sought-after commodity. We need to put the brakes on our insatiable pursuance of higher milk EPDs, and higher Maternal EPDs, and Lower and Lower BW EPD's or we will end up with Black, Polled Dairy Cows - wondering where the Beef Traits disappeared to, and longing for the "good old Days!"

. . . . . .along with lost Phenotype!

DOC HARRIS

 

[topsquar]

not to bad, that bull does'nt have depth, but he is only young maybe a good heifer bull but i wouldnt use him, no offence.

 

[buckaroo_bif]

Milk epd of 15 to 20 is plenty for around here.
He;s a good lookin bull haymaker from what i can tell. can't really see his hindquarters.

 

[Jake]

If he only has a 7.6 milk epd, you just wasted your money on heifers you may keep in you herd. For a young sire, he should at least have a +18 milk epd to make it past the castration knife.

hold on now... every herd is different using the chart that the AAA puts out for you to use some people need a milk EPD of 7-9 that EPD is going to make the perfect range cow and a cow that is easily going to keep flesh and breed back in hard conditions. Holsteins don't do well in the real world and neither to cattle with milk EPDs over about 23-24. 18 is the stopping marker for our herd we won't use a bull with an EPD over that our herd already milks too well to add more milk to it.

 

[Brandonm2]

I have seen a lot of Angus females with milk EPDs of 7.6 OR LESS that were darn good mama cows. Granted I would rather see a number like 15 but I think we are reading too much into the EPD when we are saying that a bull with a +7.6 Milk EPD's daughters will not milk. They may not be AS heavy milking as a bull with a +30 milk EPD though in some environments that MIGHT be a good thing.

 

[J]

If he only has a 7.6 milk epd, you just wasted your money on heifers you may keep in you herd. For a young sire, he should at least have a +18 milk epd to make it past the castration knife.

Wouldn't the milk EPD also depend on the cows you are putting him on? I mean if the cows are good milkers wouldn't the lower number maybe be ok? Just asking, I'm learning EPD's a little and thought I'd ask.

 

[SEC]

Milk EPD I have a 315 cow with a 8 milk EPD and that is a load of crap. Her calves are in good flesh in the fall but she raises them just a little under average of the 205 wt. The calves have great hair, excellent body condition.

So if she is truly a 8 for milk than I never want anymore than that.
Pick cattle with your eyes and then go to numbers, they won't make an animal worse if the animal is the right kind.

 

[ENNOT]

When Jake compared Holsteins to Angus, thats like Apples and Oranges. I would agree that there is a epd that needs to fit your environment and feed supply. I agree that 18 is plenty for milk, but when a bulls epds are below breed average, a flag goes up to me.

Maybe this bull has older genetics which would bring the numbers down compared to today's breed average. But what I am saying is that on the epd side of things, a 7.6 milk epd is going to drag down any heifers that are at or near breed average.

I don't judge on epds alone, but they are a tool that people need to seriously look at when mating cattle. In a commercial herd that milks good, this is probably okay. But from a reigstered stand point, a bull with that milk epd is a little too low.

Go ahead and beat up on me and what my thoughts are, but I think you need to select cattle for balanced traits across the board. And 7.6 for milk is not balanced unless WW epd is 12 and YW is 25. Just my opinion.[/quote]

 

[Australian Cattleman]

He's as bout as good a bull you'll see in the Angus breed today. Gone are the good old Angus days where a bull looked like a bull. Masculine and beefy. Most Angus bulls I see around look far too feminine and lack muscling and beef characteristics.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Go ahead and beat up on me and what my thoughts are, but I think you need to select cattle for balanced traits across the board. And 7.6 for milk is not balanced unless WW epd is 12 and YW is 25. Just my opinion.

ENNOT - and all the other posters on this thread - I have no desire to "beat up on you!" I think you are correct in your hypothesis about 'Balanced Traits", and I have propounded that premise throughout all of our discussions concerning EPD's.

I took the time this afternoon to re-read ALL the posts on this thread, and after I read them - -I shook my head a few times and said to myself, "Self, I think there is a glitch in the supposed "FACTS" of this discussion!

In my zeal to make a point about eight or nine posts back, I think that I did not do a very good job of explaining myself. That said, - let's start over at the top. heymaker stated that his bull's EPDs were as follows: BW- -0.7, WW +42.3 WW +87.0 and MILK +.76. haymaker was asked to check his MILK # because it was thought that a mistake was made by confusing the MILK epd with the ACCURACY figure. haymaker replied that the MILK # was 7.6 (Seven Point Six) and NOT .76 (Point Seven Six). Are we all up to speed so far?

From here on the discussion seems to have been skewed in meaning somewhat. In my post I attempted to point out that the average EPD's of the cow HERD should be considered in determining whether the bull's MILK epd was adequate.

There is a general consensus of opinion that many of the MILK EPD's are reaching numbers which are TOO high - 30 - to as high as 40 or more! Please understand that a MILK EPD of, for example, -"00" does NOT indicate that the cow will give NO milk!! Nor does a MILK EPD of "40" mean that she will give enough milk that you can use her as a dairy cow! It is a predictor of a sire's genetic merit for milk and mothering ability as expressed in POUNDS OF CALF WEANED BY HIS DAUGHTERS - compared to daughters of other sires!

Does it not follow then that getting MILK epd's HIGHER AND HIGHER AND HIGHER isn't practicing MODERATION? Milk EPD numbers of 15 - 24 seems to be a pretty moderate goal to me, depending upon the numbers of the MATE of the individual under discussion. (Bull OR Cow).

Haymaker, would you please try to get the registration number and name of the bull and post it here? I think that would resolve a lot of misunderstanding and controversy which exists here. Thank you.

DOC HARRIS

 

[DOC HARRIS]

He's as bout as good a bull you'll see in the Angus breed today. Gone are the good old Angus days where a bull looked like a bull. Masculine and beefy. Most Angus bulls I see around look far too feminine and lack muscling and beef characteristics.

A C - You must get out more!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Oldtimer]

Milk epd of 15 to 20 is plenty for around here.

I agree- You get over 20 in this country and you end up with open heifers next year- they put everything out for milk to the calf and don't rebreed... I'll take a 10 milk EPD over a 25 or 30 anyday...

I question this bulls 7.6 EPD as I believe his sire OCC Great Plains has a milk EPD of 22-- That would mean the dam had to be an awful poor milking cow :?:

 

[jaydill]

Not deep enough IMO

 

[Brandonm2]

When Jake compared Holsteins to Angus, thats like Apples and Oranges. I would agree that there is a epd that needs to fit your environment and feed supply. I agree that 18 is plenty for milk, but when a bulls epds are below breed average, a flag goes up to me.

Maybe this bull has older genetics which would bring the numbers down compared to today's breed average. But what I am saying is that on the epd side of things, a 7.6 milk epd is going to drag down any heifers that are at or near breed average.

I don't judge on epds alone, but they are a tool that people need to seriously look at when mating cattle. In a commercial herd that milks good, this is probably okay. But from a reigstered stand point, a bull with that milk epd is a little too low.

Go ahead and beat up on me and what my thoughts are, but I think you need to select cattle for balanced traits across the board. And 7.6 for milk is not balanced unless WW epd is 12 and YW is 25. Just my opinion.

[/quote]

But weaning wt is NOT 12, it is 42 and yearling wt is 87!! According to the EPDs, his daughters should have enough growth in them that the calves will wean off at 600 lbs plus in most environments. I don't care where the pounds come from (genes or mama) as long as the calves weigh and IF the daughters don't milk quite as well as some cows that means they are (a little) more likely to get bred back and will be going into winter in better condition. Those +25 milk EPDs often come with a reproduction price. The biggest fault I find with the +7.6 number is that the number makes him and his progeny harder to market to people chasing the numbers.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I won't bother getting into the EPD discussion, and maybe my old eyes are tired, but BW aside, those front shoulders look pretty coarse. I guess if the calves are small enough, you'll be ok, but why not find something a little smoother and get some birthweight back? Kinda pencil gutted too. I wouldn't use him.

Rod