JHH
Well-known member
WOW Jeanne you really got them riled up.
JHH
JHH
Angus vs Hereford
- Thread starter Jeanne - Simme Valley
- Start date
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TxStateCowboy
Well-known member
JHH":1stlaf9g said:
You're pre-judgement on my nature of thought and learning is false.
After reading the posts of this thread over, and a few hours on the ranch tending to my longhorns, brangus, limos, angus, beefmasters, baldies, and, yes, herefords... i thought about it. I do not buy any expensive cattle. I get what i pay for. there are sicklies in every breed. the herefords i have are not top-notch, not close to show quality, and therewith comes the risk of a dead baby, which happened twice last fall. Everyone was well fed and mineraled. It happens, and those herefords will be culled this summer.
I appologize for any "riling up" and offending i may have caused.
Thanks to all who replied to the original poster with facts or data they thought to be informative. I hope to learn more every day i read these message boards. -Will
Saltydawg
Well-known member
Thas ok...go ahead and pick on my Herefords :lol: .
As long as your Longhorns stay in Texas you'll never have to worry about them standing next to my Herefords and everyone asking you "where's the beef"
.
As long as your Longhorns stay in Texas you'll never have to worry about them standing next to my Herefords and everyone asking you "where's the beef"
.Kent
Well-known member
Jeanne - Simme Valley":2ulawr0e said:
Jeanne,
I apologize to you for the way this thread turned out, and I realize that if I had kept my opinions to myself it wouldn't have happened. As I said way back up the thread, it's certainly nothing against you.
I sincerely hope you thoroughly enjoyed your conference and learned a lot. I hope I have done nothing to take away from that experience. Thank you for your class in this thread.
OP
OP
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
No need to apologize - no offense taken. Just don't want anyone getting mad at each other.Kent":3bma3xjq said:
It is great to get different opinions. I threw out information that I knew would rattle some chains, but I thought it was VERY interesting & food for thought.
I'm a strong believer of each "prominent' breed has a place in this industry. I expected more "flack" from the Angus breeders.
And I really did enjoy the speakers. They did a great job - very interesting.
Jeanne, why would you expect flack from Angus breeders? You can bet that I'll defend CAB or Angus from false claims. But we can't improve Angus without knowing what we need to improve. If someone posts negative facts about Angus that they can prove, it should just encourage the Angus breeders to fix the problem. Simmental breeders have fixed many of their problems by using Angus of both colors to moderate the breed and produce solid colored animals. In my personal opinion, it's too little too late. But we'll watch registrations over the next few years and see.
TxStateCowboy":3w3qszgg said:
good post, Cowboy. it's true that you can find poor representatives in each breed. herefords have proven themselves time and again in crossbreeding situations.........the baldie (hereford/angus) in the north & the super baldie (hereford/brangus) and tigerstripe females in the south for examples.
animals don't have to be "show quality" to be good. if you want to see some good, functional, non-pampered herefords, i can direct you to several breeders in your area that i'm sure would be more than happy to show you their cattle. you won't find show cattle there, but you will find efficient, working cattle.
lakading
Well-known member
Do Herefords have pink-eye problems?
Kent
Well-known member
lakading":3tpiy231 said:
I can only speak for my cattle, and I will tell you my experience. I have had Herefords, Angus, baldies, and an occasional eared cow over 28 years. In my experience, Herefords don't get pinkeye any more than Angus or baldies. Eared cattle in my area don't get pinkeye, period. Even when the Herfs and baldies had a few cases, the eared cows were always clear-eyed.
Now, aside from that, I must say something. In this day and age, when a pinkeye vaccine is available in various forms to make it easy and cost-effective to administer, I see no good reason why any cattleman who regularly works his cattle should not give them an annual pinkeye vaccination. I have NEVER had a case of pinkeye in a vaccinated animal, dating to 1997.
Also, I have never seen any advantage in Herefords having pigmented eyelids as far as resistance to pinkeye goes. Others may have, but I have not. I don't even consider it in bull selection. Heck, the Angus have black eyelids, and it doesn't stop them from getting it.
lakading
Well-known member
Obviously. I meant more so than others. Are they more susceptible to it?
lakading":36vw8wpg said:
In some environemnts the lack of pigmentation around the eyes seems to attract flys more then the pigmented, plus there can be a problem with the sun reflection off of the pure white face.
That said, we only have a couple of Herefords or baldys but the only 2 cases of pinkeye we've had in years were both in solid black Angus calves.
dun
norriscathy
Well-known member
dun":25gcsxe4 said:
Never had any in my Gelbvieh. Yellow cows are better cows!!!
JHH
Well-known member
I think your mind is already madeup. I doudt that anyone can persuade you even with the best herefords.[/quote]
You're pre-judgement on my nature of thought and learning is false.
After reading the posts of this thread over, and a few hours on the ranch tending to my longhorns, brangus, limos, angus, beefmasters, baldies, and, yes, herefords... i thought about it. I do not buy any expensive cattle. I get what i pay for. there are sicklies in every breed. the herefords i have are not top-notch, not close to show quality, and therewith comes the risk of a dead baby, which happened twice last fall. Everyone was well fed and mineraled. It happens, and those herefords will be culled this summer.
I appologize for any "riling up" and offending i may have caused.
Thanks to all who replied to the original poster with facts or data they thought to be informative. I hope to learn more every day i read these message boards. -Will[/quote]
I appologize also.
I wish that you would get some herfs to go with them others. But to each their own. That is why there are so many different breeds. ( For our enjoyment )
Jeanne The info was food for thought. I always enjoy reading and learning more about this bussiness everyday.
JHH
You're pre-judgement on my nature of thought and learning is false.
After reading the posts of this thread over, and a few hours on the ranch tending to my longhorns, brangus, limos, angus, beefmasters, baldies, and, yes, herefords... i thought about it. I do not buy any expensive cattle. I get what i pay for. there are sicklies in every breed. the herefords i have are not top-notch, not close to show quality, and therewith comes the risk of a dead baby, which happened twice last fall. Everyone was well fed and mineraled. It happens, and those herefords will be culled this summer.
I appologize for any "riling up" and offending i may have caused.
Thanks to all who replied to the original poster with facts or data they thought to be informative. I hope to learn more every day i read these message boards. -Will[/quote]
I appologize also.
I wish that you would get some herfs to go with them others. But to each their own. That is why there are so many different breeds. ( For our enjoyment
)Jeanne The info was food for thought. I always enjoy reading and learning more about this bussiness everyday.
JHH
Texan
Well-known member
I don't disagree with you regarding pigment and pinkeye. But I hope others don't think that you're saying that there is no advantage to pigment. If you choose not to select for it, that's your decision. But the relationship between lack of pigment and cancers of the eyelid is well-documented.Kent":29txga8e said:
Any steps that Hereford breeders can take to help commercial cattlemen is a necessity, if you want to compete with other breeds. Helping us solve the problem of losing cows in their prime (with little or no cull value because of cancer-eye) is such a step. Pigment and eye-set are worth selecting for, in my opinion.
smnherf
Well-known member
Jeanne,
I read your comments a few times and I am very puzzled by Dr Cundiff's comments about Herefords and heterosis and I come to the conclusion that they may be taken a little out of context. I know Dr Cundiff is a highly respected professor and given that you didn't offer any specific quotes from him, I am not sure you are interpreting what he said correnctly.
Was he merely referencing the level of heterosis with respect to color pattern, which is somewhat ridiculous, or some of the more relevant production traits such as calf survivability, cow longevity and cow fertility, weaning weight or post weaning growth?
In order for your statement "Angus are better for heterosis" and your interpretation of Mr Cundiff's to be true, it would make quite a difference as to which breed you were breeding the Herefords to and which specific trait you were refering to because in traits of high economic value, such as calf survivability, cow fertility, cow longevity, feed efficiency and cow energy maintenance requirements, Herefords are right at the top of the list.
With respect to color pattern, you're right in that it is more difficult to control with Herefords than Angus, because there are more genes involved and the fact that red is a recessive gene. Angus breeders don't have to worry about a little white on the neck or on the front knee, or red testicles, or pigment on the eyes. As a result, they will breed more true with respect to color pattern, but I don't agree that there is more genetic kick in crossbreeding with Angus than with Hereford with respect to the true economic value traits that a commercial cattlemen depends on in order to stay in business.
I read your comments a few times and I am very puzzled by Dr Cundiff's comments about Herefords and heterosis and I come to the conclusion that they may be taken a little out of context. I know Dr Cundiff is a highly respected professor and given that you didn't offer any specific quotes from him, I am not sure you are interpreting what he said correnctly.
Was he merely referencing the level of heterosis with respect to color pattern, which is somewhat ridiculous, or some of the more relevant production traits such as calf survivability, cow longevity and cow fertility, weaning weight or post weaning growth?
In order for your statement "Angus are better for heterosis" and your interpretation of Mr Cundiff's to be true, it would make quite a difference as to which breed you were breeding the Herefords to and which specific trait you were refering to because in traits of high economic value, such as calf survivability, cow fertility, cow longevity, feed efficiency and cow energy maintenance requirements, Herefords are right at the top of the list.
With respect to color pattern, you're right in that it is more difficult to control with Herefords than Angus, because there are more genes involved and the fact that red is a recessive gene. Angus breeders don't have to worry about a little white on the neck or on the front knee, or red testicles, or pigment on the eyes. As a result, they will breed more true with respect to color pattern, but I don't agree that there is more genetic kick in crossbreeding with Angus than with Hereford with respect to the true economic value traits that a commercial cattlemen depends on in order to stay in business.
Saltydawg
Well-known member
Texan":3i92qiw3 said:
This is interesting to me. I was not aware of a relationship between eye-cancer and lack of pigment.
I have a Polled Hereford bull and he consistently throws calves with color around their eyes.
I'll get some pictures so you can give me some feedback.
OP
OP
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
First I didn't specifically make QUOTES because I didn't record the program, and I guarantee you my MIND would never remember a lecture verbatum.smnherf":2e7ub4dh said:
Dr C was going over charts where the different breeds were being compared. Chart after chart showed Angus & Red Angus with "better' results than Herefords. Remember this talk was on HETEROSIS, and the charts were based on calves SIRED by these specific breeds to equal cows of a different breed. Again, I thought EVERYTHING would be in the handouts, but it wasn't.
He was very specific explaining the alleles being homo or hetero, and he was very specific to point out that Hfd had more Homo alleles than Angus alleles. And he was very specific on his "theory" of "other cattle" influence in the breeds - more in the Angus DUE TO THE COLORS. The color for all the different traits of the Herefords was just an ADDITIONAL theory to explain the fact that they had more Homo Alleles than the Angus. But the FACT was that they had more Homo Alleles, making them less affective in the Heterosis affect.
Now as far as Herefords excelling in the traits you pointed out, some may be true - but:
Hfd was the "poorest" of the 3 breeds in:
% Unassisted calvings, calving difficulty score, birth wt, survivabilty to weaning, 200 day wn wt, Post wn ADG, slaughter wt, carcass wt, dressing %, Marb, % Choice, YG, Fat Thick, Ribeye, and so on, I could go on, but this is not the issue I was trying to make.
This is not by memory, this is in charts in front of me - but this is information on HETEROSIS.
Simmental had the poorest figures of the 4 continentals in:
Dressing %, YG, tied for Fat Thick, Survival to wean.
USDA MARC has 7 research trials over the past 30 years, on going for many years each. Dr C had breeders of all breeds, including MANY commercial breeders, in front of him. He didn't say anything he didn't think he could back up (of course I'm ASSUMING this!)
This is not supposed to be a "bash" Hereford thread, just trying to throw out some very interesting info, AS TACTFULLY as I could.
Kent
Well-known member
Texan":l6hko6f3 said:
I certainly agree, and yes, I was only referring to pinkeye/pigment relationships. I try to select against cancer eye problems with eyeset and hard culling. If I ever have a cow with an eye cancer, and it has been rare, she goes along with any daughters in the herd, no matter how well they produce. To me, that is the only way to rid the breed of the disease, but pigment does reduce the chances of cancer developing as has been documented. Thank goodness I have never had a 9 year old bull with 20 daughters get it.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Kent pigment has nothing to do with pinkeye that is a management problem. Now cancer eye is a different issue.
