Angus vs Hereford

[la4angus]

My experience with herefords are their being sickly, weak animals that need more attention than they should get.
.

And just how much experience with Herefords have you had??

 

[TxStateCowboy]

My experience with herefords are their being sickly, weak animals that need more attention than they should get.
.

And just how much experience with Herefords have you had??

we'll call it 3 out of my 21 years. The amount is not the point, the point is seeing firsthand how i like/dislike the animals of that breed (hereford)that I have been exposed to. People around my area, in their 60's, feel much the same way. I'm not promoting my own breeds just saying my opinion of that breed. ugly looking animals also...remind me of retarded irish orphans.

No offense if anyone is one or more of those three, just a joke.

 

[txag]

we'll call it 3 out of my 21 years. The amount is not the point, the point is seeing firsthand how i like/dislike the animals of that breed (hereford)that I have been exposed to. People around my area, in their 60's, feel much the same way. I'm not promoting my own breeds just saying my opinion of that breed. ugly looking animals also...remind me of retarded irish orphans.

No offense if anyone is one or more of those three, just a joke.

well, Cowboy, i have a little assignment for you. since you're from Seguin it shouldn't be too far out of your way. the San Antonio Stock Show All-Breed Bull & Female Sale is coming up next month. head on over there & check on some things for us:

1. the top-selling breed of bull(s)
2. the top-selling breed(s) (or breeds included in the crossbreeds) pen(s) of females.

and since you like longhorns, we'll throw this in there just for fun & extra credit. in the same sale:

3. the number/price of longhorn bull(s) being sold to commercial ranchers.
4. the number/price of longhorn and/or longhorn cross cows.

i anxiously await your report. ;-)

 

[txag]

but Jeanne, you just told us this in the other thread about heterosis:

They lumped all the british breeds used in research together (because there wasn't a lot of breed differences)

I think the operative term is "a lot".

dun

yes, that's the operative term. my point was.....if there's enough difference to mention it in his speech, it sure seems like there should have been enough difference to account for it in the research. either there's a significant difference or there's not.

 

[Frankie]

As I have said before. I have somewhat of a problem with the data that MARC has turned out lately in that:

I asked the Char Association how the semen was supplied to MARC research. I was told they called and asked if any members would willing to supply semen for research.

There was no criteria specified for any particular traits. The semen could have been from any bull with any EPD's and any accuracies.

To get a cross-section "Scientific" analysis of any one breed wouldn't you need to use semen from "Breed Average" bulls across the board?

It seems to me that when they started this round of evaluations, MARC used the most heavily used Angus bulls in the breed. I saw the list one time; there were some that I'd preferred not be included, but they WERE being heavily used by Angus breeders at that time.

 

[TxStateCowboy]

we'll call it 3 out of my 21 years. The amount is not the point, the point is seeing firsthand how i like/dislike the animals of that breed (hereford)that I have been exposed to. People around my area, in their 60's, feel much the same way. I'm not promoting my own breeds just saying my opinion of that breed. ugly looking animals also...remind me of retarded irish orphans.

No offense if anyone is one or more of those three, just a joke.

well, Cowboy, i have a little assignment for you. since you're from Seguin it shouldn't be too far out of your way. the San Antonio Stock Show All-Breed Bull & Female Sale is coming up next month. head on over there & check on some things for us:

1. the top-selling breed of bull(s)
2. the top-selling breed(s) (or breeds included in the crossbreeds) pen(s) of females.

and since you like longhorns, we'll throw this in there just for fun & extra credit. in the same sale:

3. the number/price of longhorn bull(s) being sold to commercial ranchers.
4. the number/price of longhorn and/or longhorn cross cows.

i anxiously await your report. ;-)

I look forward to that sale, and planned on going. Your longhorn nonsense is meaningless and degrading to me as i personally use them for economic purposes, not master breeding plans, not horns, and not 'flashy' hides. They cost nothing to manage and work well for me. I use longhorns for cross-breeding remember, and I enjoy it as well as make some decent $.

I could tout all the good things about a brangus but most everyone would agree and everyone has heard it all. I have brangus as well, and yeah they bring in more $ than the lh calves. But they cost more too.

I understand the supply and demand, as well as the genepool craze, the dislike of longhorns, the like of hereford and angus.
It's all the cattle industry and i'm into it more than anyone my age, even if i don't show bulls or **** like that. I have cattle, i intend to breed them year over year and get bigger, fertile, healthy cattle every time. Isn't that the point? In that regard I think I call any breed or animal ugly, because it all looks good sitting on my plate.

 

[Kent]

My experience with herefords are their being sickly, weak animals that need more attention than they should get.

Your herefords make beef, angus make beef, angus crosses may make a little more beef than hereford crosses, just stop complaining about angus taking the market and make your herefords bigger and more meaty. All this business is is supplying beef. Everybody gets off-track, so don't follow suit.

Then you don't have any experience with Herefords and neither do the people you've been talking to. If you dealt with sickly Herefords for three of your 21 years, that's your problem. Maybe you need someone to help you buy your cattle. When you've bred Herefords for 28 years as I have, then you can give me advice on how to breed mine, and not before. Quit trying to rile people up just for the heck of it. It's juvenile.

 

[txag]

I look forward to that sale, and planned on going. Your longhorn nonsense is meaningless and degrading to me as i personally use them for economic purposes, not master breeding plans, not horns, and not 'flashy' hides. They cost nothing to manage and work well for me. I use longhorns for cross-breeding remember, and I enjoy it as well as make some decent $.

and your calling herefords sickly & weak & ugly as a retarded Irish orphan wasn't degrading to the hereford breeders? :roll:

my comment about checking on the longhorn pricing is that this is a commercial sale in spite of them selling registered bulls. the majority (if not all of the bulls) will go into a crossbreeding program. if longhorn bulls/cows work that well in a crossbreeding/commercial environment surely there would be some in this renowned sale?


for a little preview of the sale, here are the results from '04 (i didn't make it last year):

http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ht=antonio

 

[MikeC]

As I have said before. I have somewhat of a problem with the data that MARC has turned out lately in that:

I asked the Char Association how the semen was supplied to MARC research. I was told they called and asked if any members would willing to supply semen for research.

There was no criteria specified for any particular traits. The semen could have been from any bull with any EPD's and any accuracies.

To get a cross-section "Scientific" analysis of any one breed wouldn't you need to use semen from "Breed Average" bulls across the board?

It seems to me that when they started this round of evaluations, MARC used the most heavily used Angus bulls in the breed. I saw the list one time; there were some that I'd preferred not be included, but they WERE being heavily used by Angus breeders at that time.

So Frankie, does using bulls that are "heavily used" sound like a proper scientific choice for 1/2 of the genetics in differentiating traits between breeds of cattle? It doesn't to me.

I would gamble that some those "heavily used" bulls are not so "heavily used" anymore.

 

[TxStateCowboy]

My experience with herefords are their being sickly, weak animals that need more attention than they should get.

Your herefords make beef, angus make beef, angus crosses may make a little more beef than hereford crosses, just stop complaining about angus taking the market and make your herefords bigger and more meaty. All this business is is supplying beef. Everybody gets off-track, so don't follow suit.

Then you don't have any experience with Herefords and neither do the people you've been talking to. If you dealt with sickly Herefords for three of your 21 years, that's your problem. Maybe you need someone to help you buy your cattle. When you've bred Herefords for 28 years as I have, then you can give me advice on how to breed mine, and not before. Quit trying to rile people up just for the heck of it. It's juvenile.

easy there slick, i'm not giving you advice at all, nor trying to rile people up. I like to state my opinions, be they wrong or right they are my view. If factual information is displayed on here then my opinion of dislike could be swayed to understanding the breed better, please consider that. The strong people on this board ignore the "bullsh!t" and state facts, then theres the majority who yell and scream... I know my "experience" was with just a few cattle and could be wrong completely... I post my opinions in search of facts.

persuade me, don't persecute me.

 

[Caustic Burno]

My experience with herefords are their being sickly, weak animals that need more attention than they should get.

Your herefords make beef, angus make beef, angus crosses may make a little more beef than hereford crosses, just stop complaining about angus taking the market and make your herefords bigger and more meaty. All this business is is supplying beef. Everybody gets off-track, so don't follow suit.

Then you don't have any experience with Herefords and neither do the people you've been talking to. If you dealt with sickly Herefords for three of your 21 years, that's your problem. Maybe you need someone to help you buy your cattle. When you've bred Herefords for 28 years as I have, then you can give me advice on how to breed mine, and not before. Quit trying to rile people up just for the heck of it. It's juvenile.

Come on lets call a spade a spade and thats what Longhorns are, if they were a true viable breed, you wouldn't have to look for one in a pasture. If the breed had anythig to bring to the table they would be more than a ornamental, nostalgic breed. Are the pretty to look at yep but that is about as far as it goes if they had been this great breed of the South West the old cattlemen would not have imported Herefords to put some meat with the hide. True Cattlemen were breeding beef not horns any place that longhorn can go so can a Hereford/Angus or Bramer if you want proof next time you get on I-10 west look out the window, don't be surprised if you don't see any longhorns.

 

[Kent]

Well, first you must understand that I am not mad. If I was, I would use a Second, since you seek to be educated, you need to learn what kind of language provokes people. Your post had the tone that said "Kent is new in the cattle business and Herefords stink". Then when I set it straight, you back off with your hands up acting like I am the one out of line. You really jumped in where you did not belong with that kind of attitude.

The other thing I want to say is this: There are a few breeds that have been industry pillars worldwide. By industry pillars, I mean cattle that can survive in any climate while improving the native cattle and converting whatever they have to eat into beef, and doing so efficiently. Their sheer numbers worldwide are enough proof that they are excellent beef producers. They are the Hereford, the Angus, the Simmental, the Charolais, and the Brahman (or Zebu) breeds. I don't have to come on here and persuade you to like any of them. Their histories need no defense.

Frankly, I wonder how anyone in the great state of Texas, with its proud Hereford history, has never seen a good Hereford herd. If you are young and have never been to any national shows, you really need to go to some. Go to a show of each of the breeds I listed above and see if your opinions don't change.

Lastly, and I mean this in all seriousness, if you are taking advice from old-timers who sit around knocking cattle based on breed, you need to find different sources of advice on cattle.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Very well said, Kent. I knew I would start a discussion, but really didn't think it would get so nasty. Let's leave it at that.

 

[la4angus]

Very well said, Kent. I knew I would start a discussion, but really didn't think it would get so nasty. Let's leave it at that.

All it takes is one smart ass.

 

[preston39]

Jeanne...

You are right Dr. Cundiffs' thoughts are discerning for a herdsman to see the point. It's not one breed against another. It is an evaluation whch may or may not include a breed.

One would think that anyone who includes Angus in his name should know that there is no such name as black angus...just Angus and Red angus.

 

[andybob]

Let us not forget Prof J Bonsma used Hereford in the development of the Bonsmara, as did Tom Lasater for the Beefmaster, worth considering two reputable cattle breeders choice!
If you want heterosis, cross Hereford with Tuli, there were some beauties in Zimbabwe, worth considering in hot regions.

 

[txag]

a reply from a geneticist i contacted regarding this subject:

"To my knowledge there is absolutely no evidence that there is increased homozygosity within the Hereford breed as compared to any other breed. The only exception is the L1 Hereford that although linebred still appears to have considerable molecular (DNA) variation even though current sires and dams at Miles City are up to 15/16 sibs by pedigree. Also, there is no justification to indicate that selection for the 4 traits you mention would cause genome-wide homozygosity in an effort to generate a true-breeding breed."

 

[MikeC]

a reply from a geneticist i contacted regarding this subject:

"To my knowledge there is absolutely no evidence that there is increased homozygosity within the Hereford breed as compared to any other breed. The only exception is the L1 Hereford that although linebred still appears to have considerable molecular (DNA) variation even though current sires and dams at Miles City are up to 15/16 sibs by pedigree. Also, there is no justification to indicate that selection for the 4 traits you mention would cause genome-wide homozygosity in an effort to generate a true-breeding breed."

Thanks. I needed that. ;-)

 

[txag]

Thanks. I needed that. ;-)

Anytime ;-)

 

[JHH]

My experience with herefords are their being sickly, weak animals that need more attention than they should get.

Your herefords make beef, angus make beef, angus crosses may make a little more beef than hereford crosses, just stop complaining about angus taking the market and make your herefords bigger and more meaty. All this business is is supplying beef. Everybody gets off-track, so don't follow suit.

Then you don't have any experience with Herefords and neither do the people you've been talking to. If you dealt with sickly Herefords for three of your 21 years, that's your problem. Maybe you need someone to help you buy your cattle. When you've bred Herefords for 28 years as I have, then you can give me advice on how to breed mine, and not before. Quit trying to rile people up just for the heck of it. It's juvenile.

persuade me, don't persecute me.

I think your mind is already madeup. I doudt that anyone can persuade you even with the best herefords.