Angus vs Hereford

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

More data out of the lectures we attended this weekend.

Dr Larry Cundiff, MARC was discussing heterosis and crossbreeding.
Heterosis comes from crossing cattle with more "unlike alleles". He said there is less heterosis "kick" with Herefords in the cross than Angus.
He explained that each allele was either Heterozygous or Homozygous for that trait. The more hetero alleles, the more heterosis. (there are MANY alleles)
In development of the Hfd, they had to have Homo gene for color, Homo gene for white face, Homo gene for white bellie, Homo gene for white legs, tail, etc. Making it more difficult to get them "true" to the breed.
The Angus only had to worry about 2 genes that had to be Homo - black & polled. Therefore there was less "outside" influence of genes throughout the growth of the breeds. If the neighbors Holstein jumped the fence, the owner of the Angus wouldn't know by looking at the calves because they would be black & polled, so he could assume them were PB. If that happened to the Hereford herd, the calves would be black, so they knew they weren't pure. Therefore, he said, the Herefords are more Homozygous in all their alleles and Angus are less Homo in their alleles, making the Angus better for heterosis.

 

[Kent]

Sounds like he is an Angus guy. :lol: That reasoning sounds like he put a lot of thought into it, anyway. However, the fact is that heterosis can be measured in a comparative way between the two breeds to test his theory, and I think it would show very similar results between the two breeds.

When someone breeds a herd of continental cows to both an Angus and a Hereford bull, he is going to get a set of calves that are very similar in everything except color and maybe horn characteristics. Assuming the two bulls are equal in growth and carcass traits, the weaning weights, yearling weights, and carcass value of those calves will be nearly identical as whole groups.

Another fact is that there exists right now an excellent opportunity for Hereford breeders in this country to sell bulls to owners of black cowherds, and the main selling point is heterosis with no loss of carcass quality. A good Hereford bull on a black cowherd offers more heterosis than an equal quality Angus bull, assuming that the herd got black from the owner using Angus bulls. I also understand that a Simme bull might offer more heterosis than the Hereford. And if the owner just likes using Angus bulls, then he should use them.

Hope this doesn't sound like I'm knocking you, because I'm not. I'm just a little thin skinned from the last 15 years or so of people spouting how Herefords prolapse, get cancer and pinkeye, have bad udders and bad feet, have more calving difficulty, and won't grade, all in the pursuit of selling more of their own breed and knowing all along that it's not true. Now they're saying that Herefords won't convert (of all things) and won't grow like the Angus. Good grief.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

This isn't just any "professor" with his "thoughts". This is THE Larry Cundiff with USDA Meat Animal Research Center, Clay Ctr, NE. He has research trials using thousands of cattle. Cycle 1 1970-72 Cycle 2 1973-74 up to Cycle VII 1999-2000. These projects go for 8-12 years each, using Angus and Hereford breeds in each and every trial, along with many other mixes & breeds, but A & H were in every trial.

Hope this doesn't sound like I'm knocking you, because I'm not. I'm just a little thin skinned from the last 15 years or so of people spouting how Herefords prolapse, get cancer and pinkeye, have bad udders and bad feet, have more calving difficulty, and won't grade, all in the pursuit of selling more of their own breed and knowing all along that it's not true. Now they're saying that Herefords won't convert (of all things) and won't grow like the Angus. Good grief.

Sorry, but breeds do get a reputation for actual findings. They may have or did have the above traits (faults) you described, but that changes with breeding programs. Many breeders recognize the faults of each of their own breeds and uses breeding choices to correct or eliminate breed problems.
The Simmental breed recognized the calving difficulty (mostly perceived - but existed) in the old lines, and thru EPD's have drastically changed that. The Simmental cow actually has a better Calving difficulty score with the 2 year old cows with their "01 & "02 calf crop research. Hfd was 1.9, Angus 2.0 RA 2.2 and Simmental was 1.5
The Simmental sired calves in the '99 & '00 calf crop, had a 97.7 unassisted calving % - the Hfd was 95.6, Ang 99.6 and RA 99.1.

 

[dun]

The Simmental breed recognized the calving difficulty (mostly perceived - but existed) in the old lines.

Percieved? Do you recall Signal?

dun

 

[txag]

but Jeanne, you just told us this in the other thread about heterosis:

They lumped all the british breeds used in research together (because there wasn't a lot of breed differences)

 

[dun]

but Jeanne, you just told us this in the other thread about heterosis:

They lumped all the british breeds used in research together (because there wasn't a lot of breed differences)

I think the operative term is "a lot".

dun

 

[Kent]

This isn't just any "professor" with his "thoughts". This is THE Larry Cundiff with USDA Meat Animal Research Center, Clay Ctr, NE. He has research trials using thousands of cattle. Cycle 1 1970-72 Cycle 2 1973-74 up to Cycle VII 1999-2000. These projects go for 8-12 years each, using Angus and Hereford breeds in each and every trial, along with many other mixes & breeds, but A & H were in every trial.

I am well aware of who Larry Cundiff is and have read volumes of reports from MARC research over the years. He and his colleagues have contributed much to the beef business over the decades. My post was about the comparative values of heterosis from Angus vs Hereford bulls, and there is very little, if any difference between the two. It is absurd to think that because Benjamin Tomkins chose Pigeon and Mottle as the two cows to become the bases of the Hereford breed, that Angus bulls carry fewer variations in their alleles than do Herefords, thus more value from a heterosis standpoint. Larry is flat-out wrong about the origins of the Hereford breed. He is wrong because he never studied it, or else he would know. He never studied it because he doesn't like Herefords. That's fine. There are plenty of breeds I don't like. But he shouldn't go around spouting how the hereford breed's characteristics were selected for when he doesn't have his facts straight.

The fact is, he is wrong about how the Hereford color pattern was selected for. The white face, belly, lower legs, and tail switch go together. They were not selected for individually. And if he's wrong about that, then his whole argument goes up in smoke.

As for the knocks on Herefords, we can all stand up and say we have seen more than our share of cow-killer Simmental bulls, or Angus with pinkeye or bad feet, or herefords with bad eyes or bad udders. Those are cattle problems, not breed problems. There are some of those in every breed.

Some people sold commercial breeders, especially new breeders who didn't know any better, a bill of goods on the breed of the month back in the 80's and 90's, telling them that the Herefords had all these problems and they needed to try a Wahoowaturi bull because they are the wave of the future. Then the Wahoowaturi calves weren't so easily born and the crosses grew up to be cows that ate twice as much hay and made so much milk they got bad udders and wouldn't last because they had bad structure. So the farmer was selling 750 pound steers and 700 pound heifers that wouldn't fatten, but had only a 70% calf crop, but never really noticed it because he left the bull with the cows all year long. So five years later he tried a Yazoomaturi bull because the breeder told him it would fix all his problems. And the beef business became a mess.

Meanwhile, I was using Angus and Hereford crossed back and forth all those years and averaged over 95% calf crops and sold load lots that looked alike and graded alike, and made more money.

I don't want to tell anyone which breed to use. I would suggest Herefords (or Angus) to anyone, but it's their choice. I don't go around talking down anyone else's breed to get a toehold on a market. And I don't appreciate how people have done the Hereford that way for 20 years, especially when it's not anymore true about them than it is any other breed, even if it is THE Larry Cundiff doing the talking.

 

[MikeC]

Personally, I cannot imagine a well established Prof of Animal Science making such statements unless they were "off the record" and told to some individuals off to the side.

I have lost much respect for the guy based on what I have read here today.

 

[Kent]

Mike,

Maybe the comments were made off to the side, and off the record. If so, It's Larry's opinion and he's certainly entitled to it. But if he's preaching this stuff from the lectern, then it hits pretty close to home for me. I don't think it's coincidence that he's now preaching this stuff at the same time that Hereford's new ad campaign is touting Herefords' value from a heterosis standpoint, considering the nation's increasingly black cowherd. May seem like small potatoes to most, but most of the Hereford people are about tired of it.

 

[Brandonm2]

Mike,

Maybe the comments were made off to the side, and off the record. If so, It's Larry's opinion and he's certainly entitled to it. But if he's preaching this stuff from the lectern, then it hits pretty close to home for me. I don't think it's coincidence that he's now preaching this stuff at the same time that Hereford's new ad campaign is touting Herefords' value from a heterosis standpoint, considering the nation's increasingly black cowherd. May seem like small potatoes to most, but most of the Hereford people are about tired of it.

Even if you accepted what Larry said as true and to me he has never really done anything that I found particularly impressive; it would not change the fact that you get more heterosis by crossing a Hereford with an Angus than you do by crossing an Angus with another Angus, and I think even Larry would accept that statement. I think those are the cattlemen that Hereford is targeting in their ad. campaign. The commercial guy that has a 3/4 to 7/8s Angus cowherd could certainly benefit by coming back with a second breed. Now you can argue till the cows come home whether that second breed should be Hereford, or Santa Gertrudis or black Simmental or Gelbvieh, etc; but there is no question that a lot of cow herds COULD use an influx of new genetics even if Larry thinks that a straightbred Angus herd is better than a straight bred Hereford herd.

 

[la4angus]

Mike,


Maybe the comments were made off to the side, and off the record. If so, It's Larry's opinion and he's certainly entitled to it. But if he's preaching this stuff from the lectern, then it hits pretty close to home for me. I don't think it's coincidence that he's now preaching this stuff at the same time that Hereford's new ad campaign is touting Herefords' value from a heterosis standpoint, considering the nation's increasingly black cowherd. May seem like small potatoes to most, but most of the Hereford people are about tired of it.

I'm an Angus man and I'm damn well tired of the Herf's being run down by people of other breeds.

 

[MikeC]

Mike,


Maybe the comments were made off to the side, and off the record. If so, It's Larry's opinion and he's certainly entitled to it. But if he's preaching this stuff from the lectern, then it hits pretty close to home for me. I don't think it's coincidence that he's now preaching this stuff at the same time that Hereford's new ad campaign is touting Herefords' value from a heterosis standpoint, considering the nation's increasingly black cowherd. May seem like small potatoes to most, but most of the Hereford people are about tired of it.

I'm an Angus man and I'm be nice well tired of the Herf's being run down by people of other breeds.

But Lloyd. This not a person of another breed. Or maybe it is and we just don't know it.

All animal scientists have a preference. I understand that fully, but he certainly needs to be more diplomatic as a government official.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

but Jeanne, you just told us this in the other thread about heterosis:

They lumped all the british breeds used in research together (because there wasn't a lot of breed differences)

Actually, they were lumped like that when he was going over the changes in the past 30 years - calving, breeding, carcass, & heterosis.
He had Angus, Red Ang, Hfd & Shorthorns lumped together.

Yes, I'm not trying to say that one breed is better than the other, I'm just quoting what was said in front of about 100 people, not off to the side. And, his stats showed a difference over the past 30 years, always favoring the Angus, NOT MUCH, just that there was that difference consistantly in the heterosis projects.
He discussed many projects - NEVER bad mouthed any of the breeds. Where one excelled over the other, it was pointed out. Of course, he was more tackfull than I. I just kind of spit it out.
This was just food for thought.

OK, lets see, I'm looking thru the reports.
Hfd, Ang & RA - Sm Gv Lim Ch sired calf crops for '99 & '00:

Carcass traits:
Hfd sired steers had a higher Post Weaning ADG # over Gv, Lim, & Charolais.
Higher slaughter wt, higher carcass wt, than: Gv, Lm
Higher Marb sc & USDA Choice % than: Gv, Limo, & Char.
Better shear force, flavor & juiciness than all the Continentals (not tenderness tho)
Preweaning traits:
Hfd sired calves:
Lower Gestation length than the cont.
Higher calving unassisted, & Better calving diff score than Charolais

 

[la4angus]

But Lloyd. This not a person of another breed. Or maybe it is and we just don't know it.

All animal scientists have a preference. I understand that fully, but he certainly needs to be more diplomatic as a government official.

Maybe he's just not supposed to be. :lol: :lol:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Mike,

Maybe the comments were made off to the side, and off the record. If so, It's Larry's opinion and he's certainly entitled to it. But if he's preaching this stuff from the lectern, then it hits pretty close to home for me. I don't think it's coincidence that he's now preaching this stuff at the same time that Hereford's new ad campaign is touting Herefords' value from a heterosis standpoint, considering the nation's increasingly black cowherd. May seem like small potatoes to most, but most of the Hereford people are about tired of it.

Even if you accepted what Larry said as true and to me he has never really done anything that I found particularly impressive; it would not change the fact that you get more heterosis by crossing a Hereford with an Angus than you do by crossing an Angus with another Angus, and I think even Larry would accept that statement. I think those are the cattlemen that Hereford is targeting in their ad. campaign. The commercial guy that has a 3/4 to 7/8s Angus cowherd could certainly benefit by coming back with a second breed. Now you can argue till the cows come home whether that second breed should be Hereford, or Santa Gertrudis or black Simmental or Gelbvieh, etc; but there is no question that a lot of cow herds COULD use an influx of new genetics even if Larry thinks that a straightbred Angus herd is better than a straight bred Hereford herd.

No - There was never any mention of PB Angus herds being better than PB Hfd herds. Let me rephrase it - In a cross breeding program using an Angus sire on breed C or using a Hereford sire on Breed C, there was a measurable degree of heterosis difference favoring the Angus. Then he explained about the alleles - homo vs hetero. There were PB Angus breeders and PB Hereford breeders in the room. No one seemed to have a problem with the explaination.
I thought everyone thought it was very interesting.

 

[MikeC]

As I have said before. I have somewhat of a problem with the data that MARC has turned out lately in that:

I asked the Char Association how the semen was supplied to MARC research. I was told they called and asked if any members would willing to supply semen for research.

There was no criteria specified for any particular traits. The semen could have been from any bull with any EPD's and any accuracies.

To get a cross-section "Scientific" analysis of any one breed wouldn't you need to use semen from "Breed Average" bulls across the board?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I don't know HOW they acquired semen, but I do know they DEFINATELY took EPD's into consideration. They went thru a big section talking about matching bull EPD's to Cow EPD's to get where you wanted to be.
And, another thing. They had a chart on the number of registratons per breed.
Charolais is number 3 now, over Simmental & Limo.

 

[Kent]

Even if you accepted what Larry said as true and to me he has never really done anything that I found particularly impressive; it would not change the fact that you get more heterosis by crossing a Hereford with an Angus than you do by crossing an Angus with another Angus, and I think even Larry would accept that statement. I think those are the cattlemen that Hereford is targeting in their ad. campaign. The commercial guy that has a 3/4 to 7/8s Angus cowherd could certainly benefit by coming back with a second breed. Now you can argue till the cows come home whether that second breed should be Hereford, or Santa Gertrudis or black Simmental or Gelbvieh, etc; but there is no question that a lot of cow herds COULD use an influx of new genetics even if Larry thinks that a straightbred Angus herd is better than a straight bred Hereford herd.

You and I think alike on this. It's the remarks about the Angus being more genetically different from Continentals or other British breeds than Herefords that get to me. So in his mind, the Angus have "yet another advantage" over the Herefords, and it started when the Hereford people were selecting for white bellies and tail switches 300 years ago. The Angus have been superior for crossbreeding purposes ever since. :roll:

 

[MikeC]

I don't know HOW they acquired semen, but I do know they DEFINATELY took EPD's into consideration. They went thru a big section talking about matching bull EPD's to Cow EPD's to get where you wanted to be.
And, another thing. They had a chart on the number of registratons per breed.
Charolais is number 3 now, over Simmental & Limo.

I understand that they are aware of EPD's.

But when breeding those grade and crossbred cows for research there was no way to match EPD's between the cows and bulls. The cows didn't have EPD's.

It was a totally random governed project. Which I have questioned to have given "Totally Random" results.

 

[TxStateCowboy]

Even if you accepted what Larry said as true and to me he has never really done anything that I found particularly impressive; it would not change the fact that you get more heterosis by crossing a Hereford with an Angus than you do by crossing an Angus with another Angus, and I think even Larry would accept that statement. I think those are the cattlemen that Hereford is targeting in their ad. campaign. The commercial guy that has a 3/4 to 7/8s Angus cowherd could certainly benefit by coming back with a second breed. Now you can argue till the cows come home whether that second breed should be Hereford, or Santa Gertrudis or black Simmental or Gelbvieh, etc; but there is no question that a lot of cow herds COULD use an influx of new genetics even if Larry thinks that a straightbred Angus herd is better than a straight bred Hereford herd.

You and I think alike on this. It's the remarks about the Angus being more genetically different from Continentals or other British breeds than Herefords that get to me. So in his mind, the Angus have "yet another advantage" over the Herefords, and it started when the Hereford people were selecting for white bellies and tail switches 300 years ago. The Angus have been superior for crossbreeding purposes ever since. :roll:

My experience with herefords are their being sickly, weak animals that need more attention than they should get.

Your herefords make beef, angus make beef, angus crosses may make a little more beef than hereford crosses, just stop complaining about angus taking the market and make your herefords bigger and more meaty. All this business is is supplying beef. Everybody gets off-track, so don't follow suit.