Angus. I don't get this...........

[3waycross]

All black (and red for that matter) angus cattle contain a gene that regulates the production myostatin, a chemical that limits the growth of muscle in cattle and promotes more fat growth. In Angus cattle, the gene produces more myostatin than in most other breeds. More myostatin = more fat production. Angus also have genes that control how the fat is dispersed, i.e., is it marbled, or is it deposited in clusters or on the back. These genes in the angus tend to promote fat deposition as marbling. Other genes prevalent in angus cattle control how fast and well the protein fibers in the meat break down during the aging process. Angus beef is not just in such high demand due to advertising. It's mostly due to the quality. I've raised and eaten numerous beef breeds and nothing I've tried compares. Herefords are a close second, but they also have genes set up to produce more myostatin.

Black cattle fetch 20 cents more a pound here at the auction, and it's not JUST because of the color of their hides. It's because there's a higher probability that black cattle will possess right genes that will produce meat that will grade out better and sell for more. The people I hear complaining about the higher cost of black cattle are the very same ones who are bidding more for them at the stock sales :roll:

That being the case why don't Red Angus qualify for CAB.

 

[dun]

All black (and red for that matter) angus cattle contain a gene that regulates the production myostatin, a chemical that limits the growth of muscle in cattle and promotes more fat growth. In Angus cattle, the gene produces more myostatin than in most other breeds. More myostatin = more fat production. Angus also have genes that control how the fat is dispersed, i.e., is it marbled, or is it deposited in clusters or on the back. These genes in the angus tend to promote fat deposition as marbling. Other genes prevalent in angus cattle control how fast and well the protein fibers in the meat break down during the aging process. Angus beef is not just in such high demand due to advertising. It's mostly due to the quality. I've raised and eaten numerous beef breeds and nothing I've tried compares. Herefords are a close second, but they also have genes set up to produce more myostatin.

Black cattle fetch 20 cents more a pound here at the auction, and it's not JUST because of the color of their hides. It's because there's a higher probability that black cattle will possess right genes that will produce meat that will grade out better and sell for more. The people I hear complaining about the higher cost of black cattle are the very same ones who are bidding more for them at the stock sales :roll:

That being the case why don't Red Angus qualify for CAB.

First of all because they aren;t black. They do qualify for sterling silver which has the same premiums as CAB

 

[3waycross]

All black (and red for that matter) angus cattle contain a gene that regulates the production myostatin, a chemical that limits the growth of muscle in cattle and promotes more fat growth. In Angus cattle, the gene produces more myostatin than in most other breeds. More myostatin = more fat production. Angus also have genes that control how the fat is dispersed, i.e., is it marbled, or is it deposited in clusters or on the back. These genes in the angus tend to promote fat deposition as marbling. Other genes prevalent in angus cattle control how fast and well the protein fibers in the meat break down during the aging process. Angus beef is not just in such high demand due to advertising. It's mostly due to the quality. I've raised and eaten numerous beef breeds and nothing I've tried compares. Herefords are a close second, but they also have genes set up to produce more myostatin.

Black cattle fetch 20 cents more a pound here at the auction, and it's not JUST because of the color of their hides. It's because there's a higher probability that black cattle will possess right genes that will produce meat that will grade out better and sell for more. The people I hear complaining about the higher cost of black cattle are the very same ones who are bidding more for them at the stock sales :roll:

That being the case why don't Red Angus qualify for CAB.

First of all because they aren;t black. They do qualify for sterling silver which has the same premiums as CAB

I don't believe I asked you to interject any logic in this argument. Besides it is called Certified ANGUS Beef. Not Certified BLACK ANGUS Beef. My point being you can't in one breath say they(RA) have all the same attributes then in the next say they aren't the same.......RIGHT????????????????????????

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Hey $.05 extra means $5 extra per 100.
400 lbs. pays for the gas to the sale barn.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Only thing worth reading in this thread is where angus9259 took one red limi bull and 2 cull angus cows and raised the best and gentlest calves on the farm. :lol: :lol:

 

[curtis]

Only thing worth reading in this thread is where angus9259 took one red limi bull and 2 cull angus cows and raised the best and gentlest calves on the farm. :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[dun]

I don't believe I asked you to interject any logic in this argument. Besides it is called Certified ANGUS Beef. Not Certified BLACK ANGUS Beef. My point being you can't in one breath say they(RA) have all the same attributes then in the next say they aren't the same.......RIGHT????????????????????????

It's the black Angus associaitons ball and bat so they get to make the rules. That association don;t consider Red Angus to be real Angus even though they were in the same herd book in the US till the powers that be (at the imte) threw them out. If it was anything other then a US program they would be allowed in since we're the only country that excludes them.

 

[3waycross]

I don't believe I asked you to interject any logic in this argument. Besides it is called Certified ANGUS Beef. Not Certified BLACK ANGUS Beef. My point being you can't in one breath say they(RA) have all the same attributes then in the next say they aren't the same.......RIGHT????????????????????????

It's the black Angus associaitons ball and bat so they get to make the rules. That association don;t consider Red Angus to be real Angus even though they were in the same herd book in the US till the powers that be (at the imte) threw them out. If it was anything other then a US program they would be allowed in since we're the only country that excludes them.

sad but true

 

[Dylan Biggs]

just because an animal has a BLACK hide does not mean it will be accepted as CAB but any animal accepted by CAB MUST have a black hide

http://www.cabpartners.com/news/media.php

Below is a quote from the above CAB link. Please read carefully.

"How does the certification process work?

Cattle undergo two evaluations before becoming CAB brand:

Step one: Live evaluation – Employees at licensed processing plants are approved by CAB and monitored by the USDA Agricultural Marketing Service to identify predominantly black cattle (at least 51 percent of the hair coat is black) or AngusSource® enrolled cattle. Typically half of the cattle entering licensed packing plants, meet the live specification and are eligible for further evaluation. Carcasses from these are marked with an "A" stamp to maintain identity throughout processing."

End of Quote.


The words in bold lead me to believe that to qualify CAB an animal must have a predominantly black hide, that is, at least 51% black.
The remaining 49% hide color is not specified.

If I understand correctly a Holstein with a predominantly black hide whose carcass meets the CAB grading specs can qualify CAB.

Am I reading this correctly?

Must be a misprint, surely Certified "Angus" Beef must have an all black hide, surely! :???:

 

[dun]

just because an animal has a BLACK hide does not mean it will be accepted as CAB but any animal accepted by CAB MUST have a black hide

http://www.cabpartners.com/news/media.php

Below is a quote from the above CAB link. Please read carefully.

"How does the certification process work?

Cattle undergo two evaluations before becoming CAB brand:

Step one: Live evaluation – Employees at licensed processing plants are approved by CAB and monitored by the USDA Agricultural Marketing Service to identify predominantly black cattle (at least 51 percent of the hair coat is black) or AngusSource® enrolled cattle. Typically half of the cattle entering licensed packing plants, meet the live specification and are eligible for further evaluation. Carcasses from these are marked with an "A" stamp to maintain identity throughout processing."

End of Quote.


The words in bold lead me to believe that to qualify CAB an animal must have a predominantly black hide, that is, at least 51% black.
The remaining 49% hide color is not specified.

If I understand correctly a Holstein with a predominantly black hide whose carcass meets the CAB grading specs can qualify CAB.

Am I reading this correctly?

Must be a misprint, surely Certified "Angus" Beef must have an all black hide, surely! :???:

To qualify they also can;t have a hump over 2 inches.
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile ... DEV3025519

 

[VanC]

just because an animal has a BLACK hide does not mean it will be accepted as CAB but any animal accepted by CAB MUST have a black hide

Not anymore. Animals that are sired by an Angus bull and are enrolled in the AngusSource program are eligible for CAB regardless of hide color.

 

[VanC]

If I understand correctly a Holstein with a predominantly black hide whose carcass meets the CAB grading specs can qualify CAB.

Am I reading this correctly?

Yes, but there's more. An animal that shows obvious dairy influence, either through visual examination of the live animal or the muscling in the carcass, are not eligible. That said, I would guess that some animals that have dairy influence get through, but it's not likely a purbred Holstein would make it.

Must be a misprint, surely Certified "Angus" Beef must have an all black hide, surely! :???:

No, and it's never been that way. Keep in mind that there are lots of purebred Angus out there that have white on the belly. Ever since CAB has been around, the first criteria in live animal evaluation has been a 51% black hide. Since the advent of the AngusSource program a few years ago, they don't even have to be that.

There are now two ways an animal can qualify for CAB. Phenotype evaluation which is the 51% balck hide, or genotype evaluation which is the AngusSource program that certifies that the animal was sired by a registered Angus bull. They have to be one or the other, but not particularly both.

It's confusing to say the least, and there's always a lot of misinformation going around. Technically, an animal could have no Angus influence and still qualify. On the other hand, an animal could be 100% Angus and NOT qualify. Those situations would be very rare, but they could happen. My suggestion to anyone interested is to email any questions to someone at the AAA or the CAB Partners website. I've done this in the past and they've always been prompt and helpful.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

If I understand correctly a Holstein with a predominantly black hide whose carcass meets the CAB grading specs can qualify CAB.

Am I reading this correctly?

Yes, but there's more. An animal that shows obvious dairy influence, either through visual examination of the live animal or the muscling in the carcass, are not eligible. That said, I would guess that some animals that have dairy influence get through, but it's not likely a purbred Holstein would make it.

Must be a misprint, surely Certified "Angus" Beef must have an all black hide, surely! :???:

No, and it's never been that way. Keep in mind that there are lots of purebred Angus out there that have white on the belly. Ever since CAB has been around, the first criteria in live animal evaluation has been a 51% black hide. Since the advent of the AngusSource program a few years ago, they don't even have to be that.

There are now two ways an animal can qualify for CAB. Phenotype evaluation which is the 51% balck hide, or genotype evaluation which is the AngusSource program that certifies that the animal was sired by a registered Angus bull. They have to be one or the other, but not particularly both.

It's confusing to say the least, and there's always a lot of misinformation going around. Technically, an animal could have no Angus influence and still qualify. On the other hand, an animal could be 100% Angus and NOT qualify. Those situations would be very rare, but they could happen. My suggestion to anyone interested is to email any questions to someone at the AAA or the CAB Partners website. I've done this in the past and they've always been prompt and helpful.

VanC, good clarification, so then technically speaking a Red Angus calf sired by a Registered Black Angus sire (red carrier) can qualify CAB.

 

[VanC]

VanC, good clarification, so then technically speaking a Red Angus calf sired by a Registered Black Angus sire (red carrier) can qualify CAB.

Yes, but it has to be enrolled in the AngusSource program. It's not good enough to take the calves to a salebarn and say they were sired by a registered Angus bull. That has to be verified with the proper ear tags and paperwork. There are fees involved, so it's up to each producer to decide whether it's worth it. The hope is that cattle that are verified as being at least 50% Angus will bring higher premiums than generic black cattle. This explains it better than I can:

http://www.angus.org/angussource/

 

[vclavin]

as an angus breeder I was on board when it was created.....
I find my self at odds with my association now as they refuse to see the need for improving the criteria.
The CAB program apparently has become a bigger cash cow for the association than the angus business.

Emphasis mine. This now makes sense! The looser the criteria (last I heard 51% Angus and black - the other 49% could be just about anything as long as it the color is black) the more cattle that qualify and the more nickels in the kitty...! And then the more ads and well-produced videos with folks on horseback in pretty country you can run touting the superiority of "Black-hided" cattle...

Maybe I do get it now.

Jim

I understand the problem is that there are NOT ENOUGH qualified Angus cattle to fill the CAB needs, therefore the other criteria was put in place. If Angus producers do a better job of improving carcass qualities in their calves, and there are sufficient numbers to cover CAB needs, then there will no longer be a need to include other black hided animals.
Valerie

 

[andybob]

I still prefer the system here whereby only cattle sired by a regestered Aberdeen Angus bull are eligible for sale as "Angus Beef".
I was developing my own niche market when in the USA so did not need to breed black hided cattle, so concentrated on a proven breed which is heat tolerant and fertile, just a pity I was unable to stay and grow the business. As far as black hided cattle are concerned, even in the USA there are a few breeds with no Angus influence, and one, the Mashona is of a totally different genotype and so expresses a very high degree of heterosis when crossed to Angus; http://www.americanmashona.com/

 

[VanC]

as an angus breeder I was on board when it was created.....
I find my self at odds with my association now as they refuse to see the need for improving the criteria.
The CAB program apparently has become a bigger cash cow for the association than the angus business.

Emphasis mine. This now makes sense! The looser the criteria (last I heard 51% Angus and black - the other 49% could be just about anything as long as it the color is black) the more cattle that qualify and the more nickels in the kitty...! And then the more ads and well-produced videos with folks on horseback in pretty country you can run touting the superiority of "Black-hided" cattle...

Maybe I do get it now.

Jim

I understand the problem is that there are NOT ENOUGH qualified Angus cattle to fill the CAB needs, therefore the other criteria was put in place. If Angus producers do a better job of improving carcass qualities in their calves, and there are sufficient numbers to cover CAB needs, then there will no longer be a need to include other black hided animals.
Valerie

The phenotypic criteria for CAB (51% black hide) is the same as it was when it was created in 1978. There has been no other criteria put in place, nor has anything been "loosened" to allow other breeds in to address supply problems. Remember that back then if a beef animal was black it was almost certainly Angus. There were no black Gelbvieh, Limousin, Simmental, Salers, etc. The program was aimed at Angus. When these breeds realized that a black hide, and not particularly Angus influence, would get them the same premiums that Angus was getting, they started turning black and allowed those black animals to be registered in their breed associations. So the fact that breeds with little Angus influence can now qualify for CAB has nothing to do with anything the Angus people did.

The way I see it, you can make the argument that CAB welcomes these other breeds in order to help address the supply problems, but you can't say that the Angus people changed anything to let those other breeds in. The other breeds saw a loophole and took advantage of it.

You can also make the argument that the CAB brand is deceptive, but I don't believe that was the intent from the beginning. It's what those other breeds did that has caused the deception, not what the Angus people did.

 

[vclavin]

I understand the problem is that there are NOT ENOUGH qualified Angus cattle to fill the CAB needs, therefore the other criteria was put in place. If Angus producers do a better job of improving carcass qualities in their calves, and there are sufficient numbers to cover CAB needs, then there will no longer be a need to include other black hided animals.
Valerie[/quote]

The phenotypic criteria for CAB (51% black hide) is the same as it was when it was created in 1978. There has been no other criteria put in place, nor has anything been "loosened" to allow other breeds in to address supply problems. Remember that back then if a beef animal was black it was almost certainly Angus. There were no black Gelbvieh, Limousin, Simmental, Salers, etc. The program was aimed at Angus. When these breeds realized that a black hide, and not particularly Angus influence, would get them the same premiums that Angus was getting, they started turning black and allowed those black animals to be registered in their breed associations. So the fact that breeds with little Angus influence can now qualify for CAB has nothing to do with anything the Angus people did.

The way I see it, you can make the argument that CAB welcomes these other breeds in order to help address the supply problems, but you can't say that the Angus people changed anything to let those other breeds in. The other breeds saw a loophole and took advantage of it.

You can also make the argument that the CAB brand is deceptive, but I don't believe that was the intent from the beginning. It's what those other breeds did that has caused the deception, not what the Angus people did.[/quote]


I hadn't realized the rules have been the same throughout the time CAB started, I did however, read at the CAB website how there are just not enough pure Angus to make the grade.....A hint to producers to pay more attention to carcass qualities? Maybe.
Valerie

 

[Caustic Burno]

IMO CAB is the worse thing I have seen happen to the beef industry. It sickens me to see what has happened to the breeds. Use to enjoy taking a trip and admiring the cattle on the way. As you were drivinng you could tell the kids look at beautiful herd of whateever. Now all you see is a cesspool of Angus genetics bred for a black hide.
I despise the breed for what it has done to the industry and yes I have an Angus bull standing in my pasture.

 

[Roadapple]

I agree with Caustic with 1 exception...there ain't no angus bull in my pasture.