Angus Association Good/Bad?

[CreekAngus]

Over the last week, there has been a lot of discussion on these boards about the AAA. Criticisms lobbed at the Association and some strong defenses. Unfortunately some of the defense of the AAA became attacks on those who were critical and like most attacks, constructive thought was abandoned.

I have been critical of the AAA and most often the rebuttal I have received is, "Why be a part of the AAA and breed if your critical". It's ok to not agree with everything someone does, that includes a business, organization and associations, yet continue to appreciate all the things you do agree with. I'm married, thank goodness my wife hasn't taken some of you folk's comments to the literal extreme and sent me packing. There are things I don't do well in our marriage and I do deserve the criticism from her for those things, thank fully the things I do that edify her life outweigh my short comings. That's the AAA, we have a relationship with an entity, it will never be perfect and because I love and support it, I am allowed to be critical of it's short comings.

Not only am I allowed to be critical of an Association I love, but I'm also allowed to defend my cattle and I think a lot of ranchers are facing that this week. When the AAA changes numbers it unfortunately changes perceptions of cattle. It doesn't change a thing for Ebeneezer, but for those who breed by numbers, some of our cattle became less marketable to them. It doesn't matter if you're a hobby guy or a gal running 300 head, we all pour money, time and care into our cattle. We are willing to defend our cattle from outside influences, whether it's BVD, coyotes, the neighbor and even the AAA.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Everyone, and everything has flaws, a desire to fix those flaws means you care.
May seem harsh at times, but pressure + time makes diamonds.

 

[Ebenezer]

And you have to be honest: the AAA has always had turmoil. They even had to be sued to allow members the option of AI. And it is not the majority but the power and money hungry who taint the whole. And if you want to say they are great from the outside and not know any of the history or facts, however one can know, then that is not more than expressed ignorance which is not attractive or helpful.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I pray that this is how the Angus Association handles the naysayers, because it sure is how I handle mine.

https://youtu.be/XLDsB3Muf34

 

[fhug]

And you have to be honest: the AAA has always had turmoil. They even had to be sued to allow members the option of AI. And it is not the majority but the power and money hungry who taint the whole. And if you want to say they are great from the outside and not know any of the history or facts, however one can know, then that is not more than expressed ignorance which is not attractive or helpful.

All breed associations have/had that to one degree or the other. Stick with them long enough and pay attention, they will show up. And probably most business type associations as well. And you are correct, the power and money is usually the place to find the flaws. And those who swear all is perfect and legit with their group or organizations remind me a lot of the politicians and voters who follow their political party leaders blindly. They refuse to believe there could be any flaws that need/should be corrected to make things better.

Breed associations can have a lot of benefits. But I sure hope you have enough cattle/business sense that you don't have to rely upon them to tell you what cattle to breed, and market them for you. I put a lot more stock in talking to breeders I trust and knowing their program than I do EPD's. Especially when low accuracy animals get highly promoted before they even have any progeny. I have seen several new and naïve ranchers over the years that went broke when taken advantage of buy other breeders AND breed association employees. In several breeds.

 

[CreekAngus]

And you have to be honest: the AAA has always had turmoil. They even had to be sued to allow members the option of AI. And it is not the majority but the power and money hungry who taint the whole. And if you want to say they are great from the outside and not know any of the history or facts, however one can know, then that is not more than expressed ignorance which is not attractive or helpful.

Ebeneezer: I have noticed that a lot of members on CT do not have any type of historical construct about the breed or the AAA. I for one love the history of these cattle and I really like that some of the older genetics are being brought forward (I will be breeding to a Ext son who is line bred to Ideal 4465 of 6807). This breed has some great people in it and the AAA has tremendous folks working for them. I appreciate their willingness to help immediately when I call in...seems like Matenal Plus is beyond my pay grade. I have really appreciated reading your posts and your contributions.

 

[CattleMan1920]

And you have to be honest: the AAA has always had turmoil. They even had to be sued to allow members the option of AI. And it is not the majority but the power and money hungry who taint the whole. And if you want to say they are great from the outside and not know any of the history or facts, however one can know, then that is not more than expressed ignorance which is not attractive or helpful.

Ebeneezer: I have noticed that a lot of members on CT do not have any type of historical construct about the breed or the AAA. I for one love the history of these cattle and I really like that some of the older genetics are being brought forward (I will be breeding to a Ext son who is line bred to Ideal 4465 of 6807). This breed has some great people in it and the AAA has tremendous folks working for them. I appreciate their willingness to help immediately when I call in...seems like Matenal Plus is beyond my pay grade. I have really appreciated reading your posts and your contributions.

Creek, Maternal Plus is a breeze to get your gals enrolled in, call Jamie Bobell at AAA and she will walk you through it all.

 

[CattleMan1920]

And you have to be honest: the AAA has always had turmoil. They even had to be sued to allow members the option of AI. And it is not the majority but the power and money hungry who taint the whole. And if you want to say they are great from the outside and not know any of the history or facts, however one can know, then that is not more than expressed ignorance which is not attractive or helpful.

Ebeneezer: I have noticed that a lot of members on CT do not have any type of historical construct about the breed or the AAA. I for one love the history of these cattle and I really like that some of the older genetics are being brought forward (I will be breeding to a Ext son who is line bred to Ideal 4465 of 6807). This breed has some great people in it and the AAA has tremendous folks working for them. I appreciate their willingness to help immediately when I call in...seems like Matenal Plus is beyond my pay grade. I have really appreciated reading your posts and your contributions.

Creek and Ebenezer,

Don't assume that younger Angus breeders are not aware of the past. Here are three books I refer to often.

Ideal Pioneers

https://amzn.to/3172od0

Breed of Noble Breeds

https://amzn.to/2EUtdYq

and of course

History of Aberdeen-Angus cattle

https://amzn.to/2QTfHJC

 

[cow pollinater]

I find it entertaining to see this thread running concurrently with the cattle selection in the past thread. In my opinion the downside of Angus is that they've tried to reduce everything to numbers. I believe that their desire to put a number on every single trait has led them to where they are now in the thinking that it's a do all stand alone breed... It's NOT... If you look at the big time growth bulls, they can be beat by a char over moderate cows on carcass. If you look at the popular mid range bulls they can far and away be beat with crossbreeding on all traits.
I agree that EPD's are a great tool but you still have to know what you're looking at to pick profitable cattle.
There ARE really great angus cattle out there that are pretty hard to beat for a commercial cow but there's also way to many EPD wonders that wouldn't last ten minutes in the places where a true angus cow should shine.
All breeds have fighting amongst themselves but in my career I've followed several breeds and have had registered cattle of all sorts. The thing that I notice about the angus association is that rather than embrace making the breed better they tend to deny, deny, deny, and then throw out a new EPD at the last minute. I won't give sources but I know that to be the case in several instances.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

One thing that all breed associations do is take your money.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I find it entertaining to see this thread running concurrently with the cattle selection in the past thread. In my opinion the downside of Angus is that they've tried to reduce everything to numbers. I believe that their desire to put a number on every single trait has led them to where they are now in the thinking that it's a do all stand alone breed... It's NOT... If you look at the big time growth bulls, they can be beat by a char over moderate cows on carcass. If you look at the popular mid range bulls they can far and away be beat with crossbreeding on all traits.
I agree that EPD's are a great tool but you still have to know what you're looking at to pick profitable cattle.
There ARE really great angus cattle out there that are pretty hard to beat for a commercial cow but there's also way to many EPD wonders that wouldn't last ten minutes in the places where a true angus cow should shine.
All breeds have fighting amongst themselves but in my career I've followed several breeds and have had registered cattle of all sorts. The thing that I notice about the angus association is that rather than embrace making the breed better they tend to deny, deny, deny, and then throw out a new EPD at the last minute. I won't give sources but I know that to be the case in several instances.

I totally agree I currently have one of the best bulls I have owned an Angus.
A real nice moderate bull like I want to run about 1600-1700 pounds. I doubt my next bull will be Angus due to the race to behemoth.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

I find it entertaining to see this thread running concurrently with the cattle selection in the past thread. In my opinion the downside of Angus is that they've tried to reduce everything to numbers. I believe that their desire to put a number on every single trait has led them to where they are now in the thinking that it's a do all stand alone breed... It's NOT... If you look at the big time growth bulls, they can be beat by a char over moderate cows on carcass. If you look at the popular mid range bulls they can far and away be beat with crossbreeding on all traits.
I agree that EPD's are a great tool but you still have to know what you're looking at to pick profitable cattle.
There ARE really great angus cattle out there that are pretty hard to beat for a commercial cow but there's also way to many EPD wonders that wouldn't last ten minutes in the places where a true angus cow should shine.
All breeds have fighting amongst themselves but in my career I've followed several breeds and have had registered cattle of all sorts. The thing that I notice about the angus association is that rather than embrace making the breed better they tend to deny, deny, deny, and then throw out a new EPD at the last minute. I won't give sources but I know that to be the case in several instances.

I totally agree I currently have one of the best bulls I have owned an Angus.
A real nice moderate bull like I want to run about 1600-1700 pounds. I doubt my next bull will be Angus due to the race to behemoth.

Not every Angus breeder is falling for it. There will still be plenty of us trying to breed functional, maternal Angus cattle that will help the commercial cattlemen make good mommas.

 

[CreekAngus]

And you have to be honest: the AAA has always had turmoil. They even had to be sued to allow members the option of AI. And it is not the majority but the power and money hungry who taint the whole. And if you want to say they are great from the outside and not know any of the history or facts, however one can know, then that is not more than expressed ignorance which is not attractive or helpful.

Ebeneezer: I have noticed that a lot of members on CT do not have any type of historical construct about the breed or the AAA. I for one love the history of these cattle and I really like that some of the older genetics are being brought forward (I will be breeding to a Ext son who is line bred to Ideal 4465 of 6807). This breed has some great people in it and the AAA has tremendous folks working for them. I appreciate their willingness to help immediately when I call in...seems like Matenal Plus is beyond my pay grade. I have really appreciated reading your posts and your contributions.

Creek, Maternal Plus is a breeze to get your gals enrolled in, call Jamie Bobell at AAA and she will walk you through it all.

I have them enrolled but updating the info always throws me. Whomever at the AAA is always really good to me and helps me through whatever it is that I'm trying to mess up.

 

[Caustic Burno]

This is the kind I like.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I find it entertaining to see this thread running concurrently with the cattle selection in the past thread. In my opinion the downside of Angus is that they've tried to reduce everything to numbers. I believe that their desire to put a number on every single trait has led them to where they are now in the thinking that it's a do all stand alone breed... It's NOT... If you look at the big time growth bulls, they can be beat by a char over moderate cows on carcass. If you look at the popular mid range bulls they can far and away be beat with crossbreeding on all traits.
I agree that EPD's are a great tool but you still have to know what you're looking at to pick profitable cattle.
There ARE really great angus cattle out there that are pretty hard to beat for a commercial cow but there's also way to many EPD wonders that wouldn't last ten minutes in the places where a true angus cow should shine.
All breeds have fighting amongst themselves but in my career I've followed several breeds and have had registered cattle of all sorts. The thing that I notice about the angus association is that rather than embrace making the breed better they tend to deny, deny, deny, and then throw out a new EPD at the last minute. I won't give sources but I know that to be the case in several instances.

I totally agree I currently have one of the best bulls I have owned an Angus.
A real nice moderate bull like I want to run about 1600-1700 pounds. I doubt my next bull will be Angus due to the race to behemoth.

Not every Angus breeder is falling for it. There will still be plenty of us trying to breed functional, maternal Angus cattle that will help the commercial cattlemen make good mommas.

Are you pretty deep in wye genetics??

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

I totally agree I currently have one of the best bulls I have owned an Angus.
A real nice moderate bull like I want to run about 1600-1700 pounds. I doubt my next bull will be Angus due to the race to behemoth.

Not every Angus breeder is falling for it. There will still be plenty of us trying to breed functional, maternal Angus cattle that will help the commercial cattlemen make good mommas.

Are you pretty deep in wye genetics??

I'm small potatoes but yes, I have a good amount of WYE influence close up in my herd and will have much more from extenisvely using this bull, Barrage of Wye. He has an old school pedigree packed with sires and cows that had a big impact on WYE and should produce moderate, maternal, long lasting cows with decent carcass merit, which as I understand it, is what Angus is supposed to be about. In another two years, when I want to start really mashing the scales with some terminal feeders, I will bring in a terminal bull to use on these cows but the cow herd that I'm building are what I think Angus are supposed to be. To each their own.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

This is the kind I like.

Arent you worried he would feel inadequate if all his partners were 2000 lbs. meatwagons? Poor guy. :roll:

 

[Caustic Burno]

This is the kind I like.

Arent you worried he would feel inadequate if all his partners were 2000 lbs. meatwagons? Poor guy. :roll:

As long as his work results are like this he has nothing to worry about.

 

[CattleMan1920]

One thing that all breed associations do is take your money.

Duh?

Should they be free?

How do they pay staff, or brand, or buy computers/servers?

I think Angus should charge $100 per registration, and make it mandatory to DNA test in order to register an animal. Every single Angus bull should be required to have the genetic bundle test, carriers automatically disqualified for registration.

I can think of a whole lot more things, but this is a start.

Angus would be far better if it were more expensive. Membership should be $10k. No one year memberships, etc. Only lifetime memberships. That money could be poured into expanded member services and worldwide branding.

Think I'm off base here? Think again. Consider Mar-a-Lago, there is always an option to play golf on a public course but people line up to get into Trump's club, why I ask? People pay up for that which is exclusive. Story as old as time.

 

[Redgully]

One thing that all breed associations do is take your money.

Duh?

Should they be free?

How do they pay staff, or brand, or buy computers/servers?

I think Angus should charge $100 per registration, and make it mandatory to DNA test in order to register an animal. Every single Angus bull should be required to have the genetic bundle test, carriers automatically disqualified for registration.

I can think of a whole lot more things, but this is a start.

Angus would be far better if it were more expensive. Membership should be $10k. No one year memberships, etc. Only lifetime memberships. That money could be poured into expanded member services and worldwide branding.

Think I'm off base here? Think again. Consider Mar-a-Lago, there is always an option to play golf on a public course but people line up to get into Trump's club, why I ask? People pay up for that which is exclusive. Story as old as time.

You should make a break away association, call it the elitist angus association.