The vet could try Rochphin or Vancomycin. These are approved for human, but I don't think Vet studies have been completed. After all the antibiotics you have given him, it sounds like he may have an Methicillin-Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus infection at the injection site. Depends on how aggressive you want to get in saving the calf. Vancomycin is the last resort drug of choice in humans with MRSA, if the vet thinks there is little hope, couldn't hurt to try. Please note, I am not a vet of a cattle rancher, but I am a PhD that conducts pharmaceutical research in HUMANS. Over the years we have found that most, not all, but most drugs approved for humans is safe for animals. Bench testing of drugs are completed on lab animals to determine preliminary toxicity and pharmacokinetics before going to human trials. If your friend uses antibiotics prophylactically in his herd, please ask him to stop. Treat animals that are sick. Prophylactic antibiotic treatment of animals, that are consumed by humans, has been proven to be the cause of some of the antibiotic resistant infectious organisms that we are trying to treat now. The antibiotics remain in the meat consumed and interacts with human DNA/RNA.
Air under the skin?
- Thread starter tom4018
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Dr. Barney,
Where would he go to get that kind of medicine to treat the calf? Would it be given as a shot or as pills?
Let us know how the calf is doing!!
Chuckie
Where would he go to get that kind of medicine to treat the calf? Would it be given as a shot or as pills?
Let us know how the calf is doing!!
Chuckie
Rochephin is given IM, but the Vancomycin is given through an IV. A Vet can write a script for it as well as an MD, and you can get Rocephin at any pharmacy. Vancomycin, he may have to order or obtain from local hospital pharmacy. If it were my calf, I would also lance the abscess and irrigate it two or three times a day with Bacitracin, Neomycin, Polymixin B added to a liter of Normal saline, then keep it covered with gauze. Be very careful that whoever is caring for the wound uses gloves and throughly washes and use hand sanitizer after treatments. This may be more costly that you want to get into, but I am an animal lover and have been know to go to great extremes to save my animals.
Good luck and BTW how is the calf doing?
God Bless
Good luck and BTW how is the calf doing?
God Bless
Dr. Barney, I am guilty of the same thing. I am sure that most farmers would tell me not to spend much money on the calf.
The money to fix the calf might cost more than what the calf is worth, but, how are you going to learn how to work on your cattle, or keep them healthy if you don't try? I had much rather cut into a cheaper calf for the first time, and do this kind of work than I had on a real expensive cow that spit out real nice calves every year. If I was a success at healing this calf, then I would feel more confident when something else showed up with some form of infection.
Chuckie
The money to fix the calf might cost more than what the calf is worth, but, how are you going to learn how to work on your cattle, or keep them healthy if you don't try? I had much rather cut into a cheaper calf for the first time, and do this kind of work than I had on a real expensive cow that spit out real nice calves every year. If I was a success at healing this calf, then I would feel more confident when something else showed up with some form of infection.
Chuckie
I wish you the best with the calf. It is amazing what a little time and attention can do. I have experience with the a vet telling me that my dog was "good as gone, he won't make it through the night." I was not ready to give up; so the next 24 hours I slept on the bathroom floor, monitoring his IV, giving him medication, stimulating him and talking to him. You know that little sucker lived another 4 happy healthy years. I heard the same "give up" from an MD when my sister was diagnosed with small cell lung cancer. Dr. told her to "get you affairs in order," because you are looking a a month to 6 weeks. I looked at her and asked, "do you want to accept that or do you want to fight?" I knew the answer, she was always a fighter, and she lived another 2 years. If she had listened to him, she would have been dead in a month. Maybe that calf will be a fighter also.
Gob Bless and keep me posted.
Gob Bless and keep me posted.
redcowsrule33
Well-known member
Be careful, Barney, about recommending human drugs for food animals. I doubt you'll find too many vets that would recommend using this stuff in a calf, and there are some pretty strict rules about using some of them. They haven't exhausted their options yet. I would get a second opinion from another vet. This may require a drain or surgery to put it straight. It would be best to figure out what you are dealing with for sure before throwing the pharmacy at it. JMHO.
I wasn't really thinking "food" animal. I guess I was looking at it from my point of view, which was just saving the animals life. Believe me, I am well aware of FDA rules and regulations on drugs. I have a Phd in Pharmaceutical Research and have spent every working day for the last 35 yrs dealing with their drug rules. I recently retired, so I don't have to deal with the BS anymore. I guess I have tunnel vision on saving lives and I really didn't think about the food consumption end, if the calf makes it. If I had one this sick and nursed it back to health, it would just be one of my "pets." No way I could ever eat it! Plus the calf is so sick now, my personal opinion, he shouldn't be consumed by anyone. Rocephin has been studies and used in cows, but I don't think anything has been submitted for Vancomycin. The pharmacokinetics and dosage regimen of Rocephin were investigated in buffalo calves following a single intravenous administration of Rocephin (10 mg/kg). The elimination rate constant was 0.18±0.01 h–1 and the elimination half-life was 3.79±0.09 h. The apparent volume of distribution was 1.40±0.01 L/kg and the total plasma clearance was 0.26±0.01 L/(kg h). Approximately 43% of total administered dose of Rocephin was excreted in urine within 8 h. To maintain a minimum therapeutic concentration of 1 g/ml, a satisfactory intravenous dosage regimen of Rocephin in buffalo calves iwas determined to be 13 mg/kg repeated at 12 h intervals. I do not recommend antibiotics unless there is an active infection. Antibiotics are overused in the food production industry, and overprescribed by physicians.
Barney
Barney
There is a long waiting period for meds given to cattle that are not for human consumption. Up to 21 days, and there may be some longer. I am not sure
I looked up Penicillin, and it had a 72 hour milk withdrawal, but no slaughter waiting period for beef. You cannot use it on horses for slaughter. Horses and people can take the same medicines. I wonder what the difference would be between the two?
Sulfa drugs can be taken by humans, and I looked at the waiting periods. From what I understand, the problem with the sulfer based drugs, it leaves the residue on the meat and in milk for a period of time. So there has to be a waiting period unless you like rotten eggs. Maybe like the green onions in the milk like my Grand Parents used to tell me about at their Jersey dairy.. It says not to use on laying hens. I am sure the meat would have an "off smell and taste" if there was not a waiting period.
Even the drugs that were used on humans that were changed, such as Oxytetracycline, there is no withdrawl time. But you cannot eat eggs from chickens. Chicken eggs seem to be an exception to the rule on everything.
The medications that warn us not to use for human use, but can be used on animals for human consumption, have the longest waiting periods.
If it was a favorite cow, I would get a prescription of the meds he speaks of before I let the cow die.
I am glad that Dr. Barney joined in and I hope he continues to help us. It might be helpful just to type in other drugs we take to see how many are approved to be taken by animals also. Dr. Barney may have opened my small brain up. I hope he continues to join in. He may be another step beyond grandpa's way of thinking.
Chuckie
I looked up Penicillin, and it had a 72 hour milk withdrawal, but no slaughter waiting period for beef. You cannot use it on horses for slaughter. Horses and people can take the same medicines. I wonder what the difference would be between the two?
Sulfa drugs can be taken by humans, and I looked at the waiting periods. From what I understand, the problem with the sulfer based drugs, it leaves the residue on the meat and in milk for a period of time. So there has to be a waiting period unless you like rotten eggs. Maybe like the green onions in the milk like my Grand Parents used to tell me about at their Jersey dairy.. It says not to use on laying hens. I am sure the meat would have an "off smell and taste" if there was not a waiting period.
Even the drugs that were used on humans that were changed, such as Oxytetracycline, there is no withdrawl time. But you cannot eat eggs from chickens. Chicken eggs seem to be an exception to the rule on everything.
The medications that warn us not to use for human use, but can be used on animals for human consumption, have the longest waiting periods.
If it was a favorite cow, I would get a prescription of the meds he speaks of before I let the cow die.
I am glad that Dr. Barney joined in and I hope he continues to help us. It might be helpful just to type in other drugs we take to see how many are approved to be taken by animals also. Dr. Barney may have opened my small brain up. I hope he continues to join in. He may be another step beyond grandpa's way of thinking.
Chuckie
Every now and again, on rare occassions, I come across a calf on here that I wish would just die and get it over with ~ one that reminds me that there are fates worse than death. This is one of them. The air under the skin is caused by gas being released from the rotting muscle.
I am glad that he is telling us about it. This little guy is only two weeks old, and has no immunity to anything. Just like the pictures in the Vet books with all the major problems. I appreciate Tom telling and showing us what all he was trying, then we would never learn. Although, I do hate it for the calf.
Angie, I do completely understand where you are coming from. We had a Mamma cow to get down, and she was not getting back up. I was ready to do something about it after a few days. But she died rather quickly.
Chuckie
Angie, I do completely understand where you are coming from. We had a Mamma cow to get down, and she was not getting back up. I was ready to do something about it after a few days. But she died rather quickly.
Chuckie
OP
OP
tom4018
Dumb Old Farmer
Right now calf runs and plays just as a normal calf. I have drained it a few times and been draining on its own. I keep watching its use of that leg and all seems normal right know. Guess I need to keep my fingers crossed.
Good deal!! Do keep us posted about it!!
Chuckie
Chuckie
Had a neighbor today that told me what he did for air gangrene spots.
The reason for it is the lack of circulation in that area- so systemic meds can't get to it.
He saturates the area with multiple 1/2cc shots of Penn for up to 10 days.
The reason for it is the lack of circulation in that area- so systemic meds can't get to it.
He saturates the area with multiple 1/2cc shots of Penn for up to 10 days.
redcowsrule33
Well-known member
Chuckie":22arcc2u said:
10 day meat withdrawal at labeled dosage for cattle, more if used at extra-label dose (which is more effective).
Barney, I respect your knowledge, but if this calf is running around and acting normally otherwise these human antibiotics will do it no more good than approved ones. If it had a bad enough infection to warrant that, it would be sick. Without having seen this animal personally, my guess that surgical debridement of the rotten tissue will be of most benefit. Plus, with a calf this age, unless you never let it off the farm, you do not know what it will inevitably become, a pet or burger.
I agree with you, if he is improving on the current regime, then I would continue. I was responding to the comment that the vet said he was probably going to die from the infection. The medications I suggested were "last resort" effort to save the animals life. I agree that every "approved " medication should be exhausted first. I am sorry if I was not clear in my suggestion that theses could be tried only if the infection exacerbated and failed to respond to any thing else. If the area required debridement, the he would still need a systemic antibiotic. My vet does not usually tell me an animal will probably die until everything has been exhausted. If the calf is up running around and playing then he is responding and I question the vets inference of the animals morbidity. Also, like I said before, if I had one that had been that sick, it would become a pet. Personally, as a researcher, I would ensure that this never ended up as burger. Feed cattle should only be given the approved antibiotics, and further research is being done right now on the human transfer via animals treated with antibiotics. Some researchers are pushing for tighter restrictions on antibiotics used in "feed" animals. There have been small studies that suggest that the overuse of the penicillin family, in feed animals, "might" be a cause of human deaths due to MRSA. The bacteria that causes MRSA can be found almost anywhere, one study using nasal swabbing showed 80% of the volunteers were positive "carriers," they don't get sick because there immune system is normal. If someone's immune system is compromised for any reason, they are more susceptible. Some researchers have completed small studies, with results indicating "some" volunteers that consumed animals treated with the penicillin were more likely to become infected. He hypotheses was that trace amounts of the antibiotic remained in the meat, and that it did cross to the human DNA/RNA and altered their immune system the bacteria. Like I said before, antibiotics are OVER prescribed in humans and feed animals. Developing a "new drug" to treat and old bacteria is not an easy task. It usually takes 10-15 years to get a drug from the bench testing to market, at the cost of $500 to 800 million dollars. At that cost, animals don' always have the options of humans. Crazy because we use lab animals to test the drug before human trials. Now that I am on a roll, let me tell you that there is something that is troubling researchers more than antibiotics, that is Genetically Modified Organisms aka Round Up Ready. Monsanto has been able to obtain a "patent" on an organism, a living thing. Originally denied the patent and FDA, but Monsanto researcher, submitted a report that there were no health risks to animals or humans. By that time, a new director was appointed to the FDA, a former executive of Monsanto, and everything was approved. I have not conducted my own study on this, but have read the data and it proves to be a greater threat to animals and humans. Honest researchers have been fired, threatened, and careers ruined because they published their reports. But a word of caution to ranchers, lab animal tests showed the ones fed GMO corn, wheat, etc developed weakened immune system, their 1st gen offsprings birth weight was lower an less pups, 2nd gen had more miscarriages, premature deliveries, and more pups with failure to thrive. The 3rd generation, half the pups died at birth, and half of he 3rd gen was infertile. The 4th generation, most were sterile and their immune systems were so compromised that they died well before their lifespan. When she reported the findings, one gentleman stated, "well we may the answer to overpopulation" and laughed. She wanted to do other studies to see if the results were the same and she was told if she did they would fire her and ruin her reputation. I am not one to be muzzled so easily, so I just decided to retire early. Retirement does not mean I cannot repeat her study on my little bitty farm. This is probably more than most of you want to know, but like I said I am not easily muzzled.
God Bless and a Restful Weekend ------Like that every happens
God Bless and a Restful Weekend ------Like that every happens
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
