Adding Humate to Herbicides

[LauraleesFarm]

I am trying a new additive this year called Humate. It is supposed to increase the absorption of herbicides or foliar fertilizer. I cant find much info or feedback on it so I am looking for your opinions. Ingredients fulvic/humic acid derivative with potassium hydroxide. Made by Humate Plus LLC Sulphur Springs TX. 5 gallons is $33 and we put 4 gallons in 500 g tank. Thx.

 

[Bigfoot]

Oops messed up

 

[Bigfoot]

I am trying a new additive this year called Humate. It is supposed to increase the absorption of herbicides or foliar fertilizer. I cant find much info or feedback on it so I am looking for your opinions. Ingredients fulvic/humic acid derivative with potassium hydroxide. Made by Humate Plus LLC Sulphur Springs TX. 5 gallons is $33 and we put 4 gallons in 500 g tank. Thx.

It's cheaper than surfactant. Maybe someone knows something. When I spray 2 four d, the surfactant is as much as the 2 four d.

 

[greybeard]

Sounds more like a growth stimulant than a surfactant or absorbtion enhancer.
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/news ... t4jun.html
The same stuff?
http://www.ssseeds.com/media/188042/tri ... t_info.pdf


From the FAQ at:
http://www.humateplus.com/faq.htm

What about Liquid Humate and herbicides?
Caution should be used when Liquid Humate is used with herbicides. When Liquid Humate is added to the tank mix with herbicides the plant will open up and receive more of the herbicide than normal. This increase uptake of herbicide may have an adverse effect upon plants that are not targeted. Normally one can cut the herbicide recommendation by 20% with 16 ounces per 100 gallons of tank mix and achieve excellent results. One should first test a small mix to insure that all ingredients are compatible.

I would have to question a product that dismisses everything else's "small application/acre" rate, then claims it's own product only needs 16 ounces/100 gallons.

The effects humates have on plants.
The big difference between a commercial fertilizer program and the organic programs is the commercial fertilizer majors on plant nutrients, where as the organic programs whether the organic folks know it or not, they are supplying growth hormones to the plant. The organic folks apply compost or compost tea which contains some fulvic acid and some plant active short chain humic acids. These have an Auxin hormone effect upon the plant. Auxins make plants grow. Then they use fish emulsions. They say, "Look at all the N P & K in there! There is some N P & K but when you only put out 6 gallons per acre you aren't getting much N P & K. But what you are getting is a good load of Gibberellins found in fish. Gibberellins are plant growth hormones. Gibberellins make plants grow. What about Kelp or sea weed extracts? Look at all the trace elements in sea weed? If you are only putting one gallon per acre, there are not enough trace elements to do any good. However, the kelp or seaweed extracts are high in Cytokinins. Cytokinins are plant growth hormones. If nature was balanced, we would have all of the growth hormones present and all of the plant nutrients present as well. The organic folks would improve their results if they tested their soils and supplied the proper nutrients and the commercial fertilizer farmer would do well if they added the natural growth hormones to their program as well.

To be honest, it smells like snake oil.

 

[skyhightree1]

I use a good cheap surfactant called dish soap get it for a buck a bottle at dollar tree lol it works great on anything ive sprayed. I use surfactant on my row crops pastures get plain old dish soap.

 

[greybeard]

$1 for how big of a bottle Sky?

 

[skyhightree1]

$1 for how big of a bottle Sky?

50 OZ bottles

 

[greybeard]

At the Dollar Stores around here, cheap brand is $1.50/pint and it is not non-ionic formula. Most detergents are anionic (negatively charged ions) or cationic (positive charged ions). Neither make good surfactants.
You need a neutral charged or nonionic surfactant. Dawn and Palmolive are labelled as nonionic but you won't buy either for a lower cost than a gallon of 80/20 nonionic real surfactant.
On line cost of 38oz bottle of non-ionic dish soap such as Dawn is right at $4 ($3.98) plus shipping. It will take approx 4 bottles to equal 128 oz (1 gallon). You are now within a few pennies of paying the same price I pay for a gallon of 80/20 surfactant at my local farm supply (about $16/gal) and it works better than any detergent. A good bit of that bottle of detergent is things other than surfactant, so you are not getting your money's worth when you buy a detergent simply for it's surfactant.
It's like buying a 50lb sack of feed for it's nutritional value, but finding that a good bit of the 50 lbs is just filler/raw fiber.

 

[LauraleesFarm]

Im not all that bought in to the Humate thing just trying it. We use Dawn for surfactant additionally. Thel label mentions several uses with different amounts per acre. Including using humate as fertilizer soil ammendment and to enhance herbicide. So i tried it a couple times now. I am mixing it with grazon ext and it does appear that im getting evidence of kill earlier. Im seeing severe wilting within severbal hrs.but its hot as hades out here. des

 

[LauraleesFarm]

Lots of typos on this phone sorry!

 

[skyhightree1]

oh i don't know the scientific aspect of the dish detergent but it seems to work for what I do. It is hot as crap here too and stuff wilts quick.

Dyne amic is what we typically use on crops

 

[Bigfoot]

At the Dollar Stores around here, cheap brand is $1.50/pint and it is not non-ionic formula. Most detergents are anionic (negatively charged ions) or cationic (positive charged ions). Neither make good surfactants.
You need a neutral charged or nonionic surfactant. Dawn and Palmolive are labelled as nonionic but you won't buy either for a lower cost than a gallon of 80/20 nonionic real surfactant.
On line cost of 38oz bottle of non-ionic dish soap such as Dawn is right at $4 ($3.98) plus shipping. It will take approx 4 bottles to equal 128 oz (1 gallon). You are now within a few pennies of paying the same price I pay for a gallon of 80/20 surfactant at my local farm supply (about $16/gal) and it works better than any detergent. A good bit of that bottle of detergent is things other than surfactant, so you are not getting your money's worth when you buy a detergent simply for it's surfactant.
It's like buying a 50lb sack of feed for it's nutritional value, but finding that a good bit of the 50 lbs is just filler/raw fiber.

Good post on the dish soap. I knew Palmolive was the best soap to use, but I have gone back to surfactant. I noticed a marked difference in the results in soap, and surfactant. I hadn't realized that soap was almost as expensive.

 

[skyhightree1]

 

[LauraleesFarm]

For the first few years I never added surfactant whatsoever. I was pleased with my results. Then someone said to add Dawn. Okay, did that. Seems no different than it did without the Dawn but I still do it anyways. The one thing I have trouble killing seems to be white nightshade but I really think that this weed must be perennial and regrow from the roots, plus its woody. So for the nightshade I am being more OCD and spot spraying it with Grazon Next plus Remedy (generic). And that is working but it is tenacious.
SO if I switch from Dawn to actual surfactant, how much surfactant would I typically add, to a 500 gallon tank. I am adding 2 gallons of Grazon Next to the 500 gallon tank if that helps, and it covers about 30 acres give or take, depending on terrain.
I could buy that instead of Humate. BTW the Humate label does not mention using it as surfactant. The literature says it opens the plants pores to absorb more poison. I have not observed it damaging any hay meadow grasses. I have however, seen that happening with using Patriot on Bahia and some of my Bermuda got scorched where I must have inadvertently doubled back.

 

[bird dog]

Using a soap product instead of a good surfactant is about the same as using a pour on generic wormer instead of a good injectable. Sure it will work, just not as well. With all the expense and time it takes to spray, why go cheap on one of the key ingredients?
The chemical companies go to a lot of effort to get their product to market and for it to work as directed. It is up to you to apply it correctly to obtain these results. I have yet to read a instruction sheet where it said to add Dawn, Dove or Palmolive.

Laura you are putting out about 1/2 pint per acre. Not hardly enough to get good results. You probably need to double the quantity of the GrazonNext and add 4-5 quarts of surfactant. I know it get expensive but your results will be much better.
You could also speed up a bit to where you are putting out about 15 gallons of mix per acre. As a general rule, use 1% for your herbicide and a quart of surf per 100 gallons of water. I use GrazonNext high load with this mix and have very good results that last all year. Good luck

 

[NWMoAngus]

When you have an agronomy question, check with your County Agent at the University Extension Center in your area. I see you are from Texas, so that would be aTm or TAMU Extension. The Texas State weed taxonomist and herbicide specialist was a college buddy and he is very knowledgeable regarding spray additives. If the University has no information or has not tested the product, I would not waste my money on it. In the 80s and 90s there were a lot of small companies promoting wetting agents, spreader stickers and non-traditional adjuvants and surfactants. They were all junk.

 

[BC]

Using a soap product instead of a good surfactant is about the same as using a pour on generic wormer instead of a good injectable. Sure it will work, just not as well. With all the expense and time it takes to spray, why go cheap on one of the key ingredients?
The chemical companies go to a lot of effort to get their product to market and for it to work as directed. It is up to you to apply it correctly to obtain these results. I have yet to read a instruction sheet where it said to add Dawn, Dove or Palmolive.

Laura you are putting out about 1/2 pint per acre. Not hardly enough to get good results. You probably need to double the quantity of the GrazonNext and add 4-5 quarts of surfactant. I know it get expensive but your results will be much better.
You could also speed up a bit to where you are putting out about 15 gallons of mix per acre. As a general rule, use 1% for your herbicide and a quart of surf per 100 gallons of water. I use GrazonNext high load with this mix and have very good results that last all year. Good luck

I agree with Bird Dog , you are using about half the labeled rate. The label on the container says 1.2 to 1.5 pts/acre with a non-ionic surfactant at a rate of 1 qt/100 gal of water.

 

[halfbean]

We use a surfactant at one quart per hundred gallons of water. I think it costs $20 or so per gallon. I have never used humates to spray but have used them to moisten seeds so inoculant will stick when putting out vetch or clover and it worked very well.

Another option to make weeds take the spray is to put a little ammonium nitrate or urea in the tank. They suck up the nitrogen and the herbicide travels through the plant with it.

 

[Rajela]

I use a 225 gallon sprayer with 5 gallons of herbicide and a 1/2 gallon of surfactant sprayed on 20 acres.

 

[LauraleesFarm]

Hmmmmmmm I may have done my math wrong on the mix !!!! It is killing everything, though! Except nightshade and maybe that is why. So to cover 30 acres I need 4 gallons of Grazon Next. That would be 32 pints, makes sense! Would you do that if the current formula is actually killing well? (Primarily goatweed, a few horsenettle, a few bull nettle and some other odd stuff).