A-I vs. Bull

[pits4life]

What are you alls opinion of A-I vs. owning a bull.What are the pro's and con's to them both?Possibly health wise and cost difference and is one better than the other?

 

[msscamp]

Ok, pro's and con's of AI'ing vs using a bull -

Pros of AI'ing:

1 - You can hand pick each bull to complement the strengths, and help correct the weakness of each and every animal. This will put you years ahead of using one bull on all animals, or even 2 or 3 bulls on all animals.

Cons of AI'ing:

1 - Very time consuming because of having to watch and breed each individual animal.

2 - AI is a manual breeding process, so if you are not very careful not to get them riled up they may take 2 services. Even if you are very careful not to get them riled up, they may still take 2 services.

3 - Cost. AI tends to be a bit on the expensive side, even factoring in the cost of feed for one or more bulls.

4 - AI'ing is not something that one learns overnight, so there is more cost in going to school to learn it. Add to that the cost(unsettled cows, loss of semen when they don't settle), and it becomes even more expensive.

Pros of running a bull:

1 - Assuming he knows his job, and is a breeder - you turn him out, he does his thing, and you have calves 9 months later.

Cons of running a bull:

1 - Cost of feeding him when he isn't working, cost of maintaining/fixing fence once he has all the cows breed, he becomes bored, and starts getting into trouble. If you don't want to calve year round, he will need to be seperated so there is the expense of building/maintaining a seperate bull pen and doing repairs to whatever he has destroyed due to his boredom.

Those are the pros and cons that I can think of right now, I'm sure I left some things out, and I'm sure the other members of this board will point them out. Good luck!

 

[novatech]

A good article from "The Beef Site" as to the economics.
http://www.thebeefsite.com/articles/145 ... ttle-herds
The bulls used for AI normally are not affordable for use as herd sires for natural service. The value added per calf is where the money is to be made.
This does not even address the added value when raising replacement heifers. Continued use, with proper selection, may lead one to raising a bull good enough to compete with some of the better AI bulls. But then you still limit your choices of selection for the individual cow. One bull fits all does not work with raising replacements.

 

[pits4life]

Thanks for the info ,this was just a brainfart and wanted someones opinion on the matter that has more insight.The replys were very helpful.... :tiphat:

 

[chippie]

We only have a few cows (different breeds) so it is cheaper and more practical for us to AI than keep a bull.

We can breed to top quality proven bull -- one that we could never afford to buy. We have a good conception rate with one breeding.

 

[novaman]

If you are looking to advance the genetics in your herd AI is the best route. If your happy with the status quo, natural service is just fine. I'm not saying natural service won't advance your genetics but it will be baby steps compared to leaps using AI. Yes AI is more work but if you know what you're doing it isn't that big of a deal. There are some good sync programs to combat the heat detecting problem and once you get the hang of how to AI it takes longer to prepare everything than it does to actually breed the cow/heifer. I think many under estimate the cost figures for running a bull and overshoot the costs of AI. And to add to mss' list, another con of a natural service bull is the risk of getting injured or killed from an attacking bull. Been there, done that.

 

[cmf1]

I'd like to hear more people talk about these pros & cons here.
I only breed 6-10 cows my self and I use bulls and live cover.
Before I bought my first bull, I looked into AI as an alternative.
It's been a while back now, but at that time I was told that 75% was about the best that I could hope for on heifers, and a little better than that on cows.
May not have been talking to the right people but they were the only ones I knew of doing it then.
I'd love to try to match up individuals but the cost and time involved seems prohibitive.
I'm mainly raising beef so it's not a major factor, but I've started messing with a few reg. animals and may possibly drift and expand in that direction.
"Scientific" pairing from a large selection of animals would be waaaay cool. But for the small timer like me it's a lot to consider financially.
My bull was paid for with the sale of last bull, and his cost was well covered with offspring.
AI is pretty big investment but quality can surely improve.
It's a pencil sharpening exercise to say the least, and any input is greatly appreciated.

 

[novaman]

I'd like to hear more people talk about these pros & cons here.
I only breed 6-10 cows my self and I use bulls and live cover.
Before I bought my first bull, I looked into AI as an alternative.
It's been a while back now, but at that time I was told that 75% was about the best that I could hope for on heifers, and a little better than that on cows.
May not have been talking to the right people but they were the only ones I knew of doing it then.
I'd love to try to match up individuals but the cost and time involved seems prohibitive.
I'm mainly raising beef so it's not a major factor, but I've started messing with a few reg. animals and may possibly drift and expand in that direction.
"Scientific" pairing from a large selection of animals would be waaaay cool. But for the small timer like me it's a lot to consider financially.
My bull was paid for with the sale of last bull, and his cost was well covered with offspring.
AI is pretty big investment but quality can surely improve.
It's a pencil sharpening exercise to say the least, and any input is greatly appreciated.

The biggest cost to you is going to be the semen tank. It may be easier to have someone else store the semen for you. I do enough breeding that I keep my own tank right in the barn. It's full of semen and ready to go at any time. The actual cost of semen is not that bad IMO. You could buy a rack (10 straws) for around $200-250. To some that may seem like a lot but how much does it cost you to feed your bull? The conception rates will vary depending on the experience of the person doing the breeding, condition of the animals, timing of insemination, and level of stress the animal is facing (heat, cold, etc). You should have better conception rates with heifers over cows as the heifers are not supporting a calf. On a beef herd with good condition you should have very good rates. I would think 75% would be close to average. That may not sound impressive but after 2 cycles you should have 9 out of 10 cows bred. If I were running 10 cows I would be AIing them as a bull needs to be run on 25-30 cows to get the full value out of him. That's just my opinion.

 

[pits4life]

Very good info,thank you all.... :tiphat:

 

[dun]

I'd like to hear more people talk about these pros & cons here.
I only breed 6-10 cows my self and I use bulls and live cover.
Before I bought my first bull, I looked into AI as an alternative.
It's been a while back now, but at that time I was told that 75% was about the best that I could hope for on heifers, and a little better than that on cows.
May not have been talking to the right people but they were the only ones I knew of doing it then.
I'd love to try to match up individuals but the cost and time involved seems prohibitive.
I'm mainly raising beef so it's not a major factor, but I've started messing with a few reg. animals and may possibly drift and expand in that direction.
"Scientific" pairing from a large selection of animals would be waaaay cool. But for the small timer like me it's a lot to consider financially.
My bull was paid for with the sale of last bull, and his cost was well covered with offspring.
AI is pretty big investment but quality can surely improve.
It's a pencil sharpening exercise to say the least, and any input is greatly appreciated.

The national average (I have no idea how that's computed) is 75% first service pregnancys. With heat detection the average for many people is much closer to 85% or better. Have no idea what is claimed for the various sync and timed AI procedures. Until 3 years ago we did 100% AI w/heat detection (25 plus years). Our longest calving season with AI was 52 days.
Persoanlly I would invest in a good AI school and a tank and do all AI for anything under 30-35 cows. Having to rely on someone else to store your semen will work but it isn;t optimum, neither is having to rely on someone else to I for you. If you can;t do the heat detection because of time constraints invest in some of the heat detection patches and breed according to them. That isn;t the perfect solution but it sure beats having a bull around for that few cows

 

[angus9259]

If I were a terminal producer, I would use a bull. Many AI folks (like myself) will still run a cleanup bull since the time constraints to catch everyone in heat AND get them bred (caught) can be quite significant and will still take years to become that proficient. I've heard Dun's catch rate before - and believe him - but I also believe that's exceptional. Maybe if I ran a gomer, I could get higher numbers - but then you're still feeding something that's not really doing anything for you.

 

[novatech]

Maybe if I ran a gomer, I could get higher numbers - but then you're still feeding something that's not really doing anything for you.

There is not of anything better at heat detection than a gomer. Especially when you consider that you do not have to be there. If you can increase your % by 10 because of accurate heat detection then I would say he is justifying his existence.

 

[novaman]

Maybe if I ran a gomer, I could get higher numbers - but then you're still feeding something that's not really doing anything for you.

There is not of anything better at heat detection than a gomer. Especially when you consider that you do not have to be there. If you can increase your % by 10 because of accurate heat detection then I would say he is justifying his existence.

I let my cows play the role of gomer. If there is somebody in heat you can be sure there will be at least a couple others to mount her. If you have trouble catching them in heat use some scratch off patches or Kamars. I don't understand what is so great about a gomer. I've run steers with my heifers before and didn't see anything that would improve heat detection.

 

[novatech]

Maybe if I ran a gomer, I could get higher numbers - but then you're still feeding something that's not really doing anything for you.

There is not of anything better at heat detection than a gomer. Especially when you consider that you do not have to be there. If you can increase your % by 10 because of accurate heat detection then I would say he is justifying his existence.

I let my cows play the role of gomer. If there is somebody in heat you can be sure there will be at least a couple others to mount her. If you have trouble catching them in heat use some scratch off patches or Kamars. I don't understand what is so great about a gomer. I've run steers with my heifers before and didn't see anything that would improve heat detection.

If it works for you stick with it. I know the gomer proved to be the best for me. But maybe it's a breed thing. My Brahman cows don't jump other cows in heat very often. I have had cows not showing any signs of heat. I find them all marked up in the morning.

 

[angus9259]

Maybe if I ran a gomer, I could get higher numbers - but then you're still feeding something that's not really doing anything for you.

There is not of anything better at heat detection than a gomer. Especially when you consider that you do not have to be there. If you can increase your % by 10 because of accurate heat detection then I would say he is justifying his existence.

I let my cows play the role of gomer. If there is somebody in heat you can be sure there will be at least a couple others to mount her. If you have trouble catching them in heat use some scratch off patches or Kamars. I don't understand what is so great about a gomer. I've run steers with my heifers before and didn't see anything that would improve heat detection.

I think my cows are "fair weather mounters". I do use estrotect patches but I have had cows come in and out of heat without a mount. Then sometimes there are 10 cows trying to catch a ride. I've thought about running a steer from each year's previous calf crop and then sending the steer to the salebarn afterwards. Probably wouldn't lose too much that way . . . IF I was inclined to go away from a cleanup bull, which I'm not. It works great for me - always buy one of the best from genetics I don't have in the AI tank.

 

[canoetrpr]

Very interesting discussion. I'm starting with four registered Galloways. I expect the number of cows / bred heifers I have to be no more than 6 at any time + calves/yearlings - so we are talking small scale here.

I'm interested in genetics and enjoy the aspect of trying to breed better than the previous generation. AI has a huge advantage here. Being new to cattle, I think it will take a while for me to be succeeding at AIing on my own. I imagine it will be worth paying a technician for his services and to store the semen - and I have no idea what it will cost. In principle, trying to match up each cow/heifer to a bull is great, but, on average I need to pay for 10 straws of semen for the same bull - so realistically I am going to be breeding them all to the same bull every season.

I don't like the idea of giving my cows the hormone injections to be able to breed them. What are the chances that someone new like me will be able to tell heat if they are checked regularly?

The other options open to me are:
- Purchase a yearling bull from good bloodlines and replace him every two or so years if I have heifers from him I am keeping.
- Lease / borrow a bull - not as convenient as the cows get bred when he is available (typically over the winter) rather than when I would want them to get bred (summer for spring calving). Also, it limits me to what might be available and I don't like the concept of bringing in a strange animal into my herd every winter.

 

[novatech]

Some AI tech's have facilities where you can take your cows to be bred. They do the sync, heat detection and breeding. Of course that will add to the cost.

 

[novatech]

I think my cows are "fair weather mounters". I do use estrotect patches but I have had cows come in and out of heat without a mount. Then sometimes there are 10 cows trying to catch a ride. I've thought about running a steer from each year's previous calf crop and then sending the steer to the salebarn afterwards. Probably wouldn't lose too much that way . . . IF I was inclined to go away from a cleanup bull, which I'm not. It works great for me - always buy one of the best from genetics I don't have in the AI tank.

Same problem I had. I tried the steer route but seems like they lost their libido along with something else. The cost of a gommer is minimum when you spread it out over several years. I don't understand why many people are so against them. It's like their taboo or something. I had 2 Jerseys, neither one mean, down to 1 now. I think Frankie uses a Longhorn.
In my next life, when I'm rich, I,ll have this as my gommer. http://www.cowchips.net/

 

[dun]

I think my cows are "fair weather mounters". I do use estrotect patches but I have had cows come in and out of heat without a mount. Then sometimes there are 10 cows trying to catch a ride. I've thought about running a steer from each year's previous calf crop and then sending the steer to the salebarn afterwards. Probably wouldn't lose too much that way . . . IF I was inclined to go away from a cleanup bull, which I'm not. It works great for me - always buy one of the best from genetics I don't have in the AI tank.

Same problem I had. I tried the steer route but seems like they lost their libido along with something else. The cost of a gommer is minimum when you spread it out over several years. I don't understand why many people are so against them. It's like their taboo or something. I had 2 Jerseys, neither one mean, down to 1 now. I think Frankie uses a Longhorn.
In my next life, when I'm rich, I,ll have this as my gommer. http://www.cowchips.net/

At weaning we used to select the horniest steer from that years calf crop, use him for heat detection then eat him after breeding season. We had one that was the horniest thing I';ve ever seen so we kept him for one more breeding season. Midway through the season he lost interest in anything but eating and laying aorund. We've found that the cows are just as good at heat detection as a horny steer and almost as good as a bull. Now we keep a steer at weaning for companionship for the bull when we pull him from the cows.

 

[novatech]

At weaning we used to select the horniest steer from that years calf crop, use him for heat detection then eat him after breeding season. We had one that was the horniest thing I';ve ever seen so we kept him for one more breeding season. Midway through the season he lost interest in anything but eating and laying aorund. We've found that the cows are just as good at heat detection as a horny steer and almost as good as a bull. Now we keep a steer at weaning for companionship for the bull when we pull him from the cows.

That steer probably makes your bull work harder. The bull don't know the steer is a steer.