tamarack
Well-known member
Around here it is 10% of purchase price.TN Cattle Man":wxf3pe0m said:
350,000 Dollar Bull
- Thread starter Ol' 243
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jscunn
Well-known member
Gizmom,
There is a lot of jealousy, hatred, or whatever surrounding EXAR. Alot of people think, either correctly or incorrectly, that Callahan is trying to purchase more influence on the AAA Board since Hinnman is gonna run for the board. Kelly and his high dollar bulls get a free pass for whatever reason. I havent used a SAV bull, and dont plan to, but I am not gonna run anyone in the ground publicly either, based rumor and heresay.. Raised different I guess.
There is a lot of jealousy, hatred, or whatever surrounding EXAR. Alot of people think, either correctly or incorrectly, that Callahan is trying to purchase more influence on the AAA Board since Hinnman is gonna run for the board. Kelly and his high dollar bulls get a free pass for whatever reason. I havent used a SAV bull, and dont plan to, but I am not gonna run anyone in the ground publicly either, based rumor and heresay.. Raised different I guess.
Jscunn
I stay out of the politics of the association, I don't know Callahan or anything about EXAR other than what I see in sale catalogs or in news releases. My comment was totally in jest with nothing political intended, I was just surprised that there was so many comments about a 350,000 dollar bull and pretty much nothing said when one sold for 650,000. I agree with you bashing folks on a forum is not the way I want to conduct myself and if I gave anyone the idea that I was trying to bash them I truly apologize because that was in no way my intent. That being said are you getting ready for your annual trip to MO?
Gizmom
I stay out of the politics of the association, I don't know Callahan or anything about EXAR other than what I see in sale catalogs or in news releases. My comment was totally in jest with nothing political intended, I was just surprised that there was so many comments about a 350,000 dollar bull and pretty much nothing said when one sold for 650,000. I agree with you bashing folks on a forum is not the way I want to conduct myself and if I gave anyone the idea that I was trying to bash them I truly apologize because that was in no way my intent. That being said are you getting ready for your annual trip to MO?
Gizmom
jscunn
Well-known member
Gizmom,
I know you well enough to know that you werent bashing anyone. I was just letting you know how I saw that deal everyone else bashing EXAR.. I try to keep my personal opinions of people personal or at least not on a forum like this.. Jarold has never spoken to me personally but I can see he carries himself that might be offputting to some people.
Annual trip to MO is in November, I will be watching the spring sale on Tuesday night on DVauction. I have some friends consigning bulls to it and want to see how they sell. I hope we are spectators not bidders this November.. I hope we are go on bulls for a couple or three years...
I know you well enough to know that you werent bashing anyone. I was just letting you know how I saw that deal everyone else bashing EXAR.. I try to keep my personal opinions of people personal or at least not on a forum like this.. Jarold has never spoken to me personally but I can see he carries himself that might be offputting to some people.
Annual trip to MO is in November, I will be watching the spring sale on Tuesday night on DVauction. I have some friends consigning bulls to it and want to see how they sell. I hope we are spectators not bidders this November.. I hope we are go on bulls for a couple or three years...
Jscunn
The boss and I were both thinking your MO trip was this week.....I have figured it out as you age the first thing to go is your eyesight check, then your hearing check and then your memory check! This getting old isn't for sissies!
Gizmom
The boss and I were both thinking your MO trip was this week.....I have figured it out as you age the first thing to go is your eyesight check, then your hearing check and then your memory check! This getting old isn't for sissies!
Gizmom
Ebenezer
Well-known member
bse":g4oryfwe said:
Lovana semen is still available at $20/straw so he does not fall into the rare and expensive class of dead bulls. Interesting that when Lovana Acres Farms dispersed a few years later, they sold a hundred or better Ankony cows. So I assume the trade was in cows and not dollars. I still have the catalog so it is not hearsay. Lovana has a -1.0 on SC and negative on carcass. So he saw limited long-term use. 340, Max and a couple more bulls carried the influence. We used 340 one season. That was enough to learn. This is historical, NOT hateful.
Here's one to make you wonder about breed purity and hate (for PC patrol). Went to a public day at a large Angus ranch some years back before widespread DNA testing of calves. Got there early, saw the cattle in the pens and started talking to a worker and asked about a startup effort they were making on another breed. He offered me to ride along to check them 20 miles away and to check on other cattle, too. Saw the new breed, came back along and drove into a large pasture of 200+ cows and 7 or 8 bulls. We checked minerals, health, ... and I asked about them. Registered Angus, had not bred on time, they check them periodically if they are bred, ... I asked how they sold them. As registered bred cows and would provide paperwork to let the calves be registered (without mention of blood test), ... Back that the field day, all cows had calves by side, all bulls were great and wonderful, never a mention of problems. Still in business.
Went to a multi-breed large operation that is still prominent and highly favored by the mainstream. A nationally known source of current AI bulls and high priced sales. They had a leading bull in an AI catalog for a breed and we were crossbreeding at the time. Going to ask about and possible see the bull. Sure enough, they had him in the elevated sale ring there as their main facilities display. Right front outside clove on the hoof had about 3 or 4 twists and trim mark. Left side was trimmed but not as many twists. Never quit selling the semen but I never bought any. Used one of their bulls AI of another breed. First one ; produced sidewinder bull that never could breed a cow. Chunked that semen out too.
So $650,000? I did not know about it and it was never discussed here. $350,000 was discussed here. Neither are real or relevant to me because the prices are not real or relevant. Not hate, just perspective more so from a commercial mindset.
Bet on Lotto or bet on line-crossed, unproven, mainstream young bulls and odds are about the same from my perspective. Been there and done that. Never got a notice of refund, never saw a public announcement from the big AI company, never saw a letter of apology when their new sire program star left us with ALL daughters being sterile. Same for any that brought in any other bad traits like clown slipper feet (10 YO old AI bull when trialed here) and such.
Last mainstream bull I bought semen on was 14 YO with a lot of proof. 2/3 of daughters fell out (fertility) and remainder had hair issues. Very last bull I bought semen on was 2001 model with proven daughters and sons seen by me in multiple herds with a small trial here to be sure. Skeptic? I probably am but I've seen enough to know that all cattle breeders and cattle buyers are not Sunday School teachers. Hateful? No. Experienced? Yes. Too much PC to be casting stones for the wrong reasons.
If great EPDs made great bulls then all bulls with great EPDs would be great bulls. But it does not work that way. The word "estimated" throws in a monkey wrench because it is an average and not a guarentee, the genes are transmitted unseen, the lack of consistent breeding of lines maintains wider variability and so we cycle from one great outlier to another. The hands have been around the face of the dial many times with the same results.
Live and learn. Either from examples or from scars. I prefer reading and seeing rather than getting stitches. No hate.
I had a conversation Friday with a breeder who deals in bulls in the upper dollar range and has sold a lot of semen on several. Enought to pay for the bulls and more. I knew he had went to Mont. to look a bull he was considering partnering on. So while talking to him about that bull and why they decided not to even bid on him(didn't travel right in one hind leg) the bull mentioned here came up. All he said was in his opinon this woud be another bull that would be pushed hard and promoted for 2-3 years and then gradually fade out. He didn't feel he would make any major impact on the angus breed.I got the feeling he has some doubts how long he would stay sound alhtough he never said that. Time will tell. But not one I would be willing to buy any semen on.
Jake
Well-known member
elkwc":1xrb0e2l said:
Looking at the video I have a hard time seeing what makes him "great." I appears he spent more time at the feedrack, lacks true thickness and just doesn't appear to be much more than an average bull with a big appetite.
dieselbeef
Well-known member
that fata$$ could probly sell for that much based on his weight alone...I couldn't afford to feed that pig
Jake":292jnhpl said:
My thoughts also Jake. He will likely be another flavor of the month bull. Don't see anything about him to suggest he will make an impact. When I see the Express Ranch name on an animal like this bull I'm reminded what a good cattleman told me over a year ago. Express ranches had a bull that he was looking at for the herd he manages. He called to see if they had any daughters of the sire in production and what they were like. He was told that no they didn't. With a few exceptions by the time daughters of a bull got into production they had already replaced him with another. I was always taught it took several years to know for sure what you had. In this case the bull was propably served at McDonalds before they ever knew what they had.
Commercialfarmer
Well-known member
Ebenezer":1vdjwozk said:
I think maybe you understood my original statement as saying more than it did. I agree that you won't know what you have in a bull until you get some progeny on the ground and get some data. Never would argue otherwise. I've tried to highlight that I have no opinion on the bull that is subject to this thread. I was commenting only on the money aspect. In my opinion, the bull has the same chance to prove himself at the moment as he has to disprove himself. Again, a risk that they apparently are willing to take.
I also agree that there are some bulls that trend pretty high on MM and $B, along with WW and YW. And it is probably because of the elevation in these values that the bulls are utilized.
We don't all have the same environment, same management, same goals or end game. And in some of the same environments, and under the same management, I might want a different type bull for various reasons. As far as replacements, I pay attention to MM, $EN and MCE while trying to limit as many holes in other places. I don't want replacement heifers from my mid to low end cows. Which is where the high WW, YW and $B comes into play. Why not capitalize on a terminal sire? With the value on black hide, a black terminal sire niche exists. Selling a product that can generate money in the feedlot and sale ring isn't evil.
However, I do see the sway in his spine that you were speaking of.
Seems pretty heritable...
Commercialfarmer
Well-known member
Wonder what kind of discount these will get in the ring because of the high $B?
This is another sway backed 2015 calf from a different sire.
This is another sway backed 2015 calf from a different sire.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Good looking animals. All I know is what I read here to reply. I know that I do not know your management, environment, genetics, ... and that was not the topic. Nothing personal in the discussion towards you. Pictures: good and you know what you want and are getting it done.
Started performance testing in 1983. Driving data: weaning weight. Cows got bigger, calves got bigger, weight reading on scale did not differentiate for muscle, organs or fat. Dr. Bob Long had some research that bone weight is not a big variable. So type changed. Cows were not as good. But one trait selection is easy, two trait selection is exponentially twice as hard, three trait selection is exponentially 3 times as hard, ...
Could be a novel but will not do so - fertility, environmental fit and prepotency are my goals now with an eye on profit. I learned, recognized, changed and things are good. Don't know that I will live long enough to tout longevity but let's hope so! Exponentials are tough and quickly outnumber me and technology. Anybody else if they are honest.
Current average Angus breeders as a guess: select for 4 or 5 traits and make them wide ranging traits from CED to $B and the sky gets cloudy. When the sun pops out the feet and legs are wrong, the udders are faulty, the back sways and the low accuracy of mainly unproven sires, as the one discussed will soon be, presents breeders who believe with a wide range of calves. Most are not improvements but sustaining what they had with a different gene mix.
The genes that are transferred to a contemporary group or half sibs are not 50/50 from sire and dam, antagonist linkage between genes never go away, there are environmental effects such as maternal programing, there is entropy effects at conception and such.
Individual performance data, as an indicator of genes which can be transmitted to the next generation, is as risky as low accuracy EPDs. EPDs represent a range of potential from the parents that the average offspring in the middle of a sample should exactly express. Who knows where the unseen genes of this particular unproven bull or any unproven bull or heifer falls into the range of potential inheritance, given or exampled in a particular EPD, much less any or all EPDs? Nobody.
So, there has to be a better way.
Started performance testing in 1983. Driving data: weaning weight. Cows got bigger, calves got bigger, weight reading on scale did not differentiate for muscle, organs or fat. Dr. Bob Long had some research that bone weight is not a big variable. So type changed. Cows were not as good. But one trait selection is easy, two trait selection is exponentially twice as hard, three trait selection is exponentially 3 times as hard, ...
Could be a novel but will not do so - fertility, environmental fit and prepotency are my goals now with an eye on profit. I learned, recognized, changed and things are good. Don't know that I will live long enough to tout longevity but let's hope so! Exponentials are tough and quickly outnumber me and technology. Anybody else if they are honest.
Current average Angus breeders as a guess: select for 4 or 5 traits and make them wide ranging traits from CED to $B and the sky gets cloudy. When the sun pops out the feet and legs are wrong, the udders are faulty, the back sways and the low accuracy of mainly unproven sires, as the one discussed will soon be, presents breeders who believe with a wide range of calves. Most are not improvements but sustaining what they had with a different gene mix.
The genes that are transferred to a contemporary group or half sibs are not 50/50 from sire and dam, antagonist linkage between genes never go away, there are environmental effects such as maternal programing, there is entropy effects at conception and such.
Individual performance data, as an indicator of genes which can be transmitted to the next generation, is as risky as low accuracy EPDs. EPDs represent a range of potential from the parents that the average offspring in the middle of a sample should exactly express. Who knows where the unseen genes of this particular unproven bull or any unproven bull or heifer falls into the range of potential inheritance, given or exampled in a particular EPD, much less any or all EPDs? Nobody.
So, there has to be a better way.
Jake
Well-known member
Ebenezer":13jf3f43 said:
Give us some insight into the genetics that are working in your system.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Sort of "hunt and peck" for the start. Keep what works, cull others or try to bring them up in fit if they are sound breeders. Use home raised bulls, raise our own replacement heifers, use semen from bulls with proof and calves in your area if outside influence is wanted or needed. Best bulls from an outside influence are uncommon and is a good fit is 50% or bred back to daughters for 75% or 25% inbred if an exceptional bull for best fit.
Anything that almost fits is better at 25% outside and 75% homegrown. Culling rate should decrease as program builds. Some pride has to be given up as % breed back and increasing WW are antagonist on a fixed forage system. Figure where you are satisfied with breed back %, look at the WW of those cattle and know that nature is telling you something. Improvements in soil health, pasture quality or water systems can raise WWs without harm to % breed back. Should see less variation in individuals in contemporary groups and breeders from those groups will breed more alike.
The barometer: if you never decrease culling then something is wrong.
Purposefully did not mention any line as environments are so different. Breeds are different, too. What works here will not work everywhere. Local homework is the key if local folks you visit and observe and you feed the same.
Nesikep
Well-known member
Ebenezer":3c44rkt7 said:
I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but I think that can be refined a little bit.
The reasons for culling should change, even though you may always cull heavily.. At first, it will be for the bare necessities.. such as poor breedback, infertility... As you get rid of those bad traits, you'll look for better udders and hooves, and further on down the road you'll look for the better attitudes, meatier butts, and more efficient cows
I don't think I'll ever have a herd of perfect cows, I didn't cull much for a few years (herd grew nicely in that time), suddenly last year I culled 20% (it was a long time coming for them), and this year will probably be another 15%, to be repeated again next year. From the looks of my calf crop this year, if they all look as good in the fall, I'll have LOTS of replacement heifers to keep, so I might keep them all (nearly), shake the tree and see what falls out and what sticks.
I'm still culling as much as when I started, they just aren't culling themselves as much, my reasons have changed
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Nesikep":3xmw8vc8 said:
OK. If longevity is a goal, and it is for me, then my culling dropped. But like you, last year was the time to "market" cows. So I kept up with length of breeding and "marketing' older cows in 2nd and 3rd trimester that still had a few years but were worth a lot as bred cows. Numbers here are down but the money was good. Heifers are here, like you, to fill their gaps.
Hate to sound like a witch doctor :dunce: but a lot of speed is made with linebreeding and will let you cull or keep in groups (lines) and that changes things quicker than line crossing and especially out crossing. Dump a marginal group and no more culling needed for them again! Breeding and selecting bulls to use from within the herd then speeds up the process because you have total control of the genetics. Only problem: only have self to blame if it goes wrong! :lol2:
Nesikep
Well-known member
Ebenezer":2j0gvll4 said:
Yep, I'm not at the point yet where I think it's wise to close the herd completely.. perhaps in 2 bulls / 10 years I'll have the right breed mix to get the approximate balance of traits I want, I may keep and use a few more home raised bulls along with the purchased bulls in that time.
If you saw what we started with, I think we did alright.. Yes, with what we started with we would have been better off culling 100% of them and getting better animals, but since we were greenhorns, we couldn't have picked any better ones anyhow.. The eye only gets trained after looking at hundreds (or thousands) of cattle, and until you got that, it's not much use having aspirations of a great herd, no matter what you start with
The bull I kept is going to go to work again for me this year, but I'm going to very carefully have to pick which cows are with which bull.
Supa Dexta
Well-known member
Then your bulls are too dissimilar, to work towards a common goal. In reality unless you were playing with very specific purebreds and wanted to line up specific matings, you should have a group of bulls that can go with any cow on the place, and continue for years with that type of bull. Always switching breeds, types/styles, having young bulls etc is always gonna give you mixed unknowns and chasing your tail. My thoughts anyways.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Constant mixing of lines, breeds, types, corrector bulls, ... is merely "genes in a blender". It would be like trying to pick out the pieces of strawberries in a strawberry milkshake to pick out the genes that you want to concentrate. Impossible to nearly impossible in a serious breeding effort.Supa Dexta":294a57ig said:
Or in another way of looking at it - Just what is inside of an economy hot dog? A lot of "stuff" that makes it into a meal. But a solid piece of meat is always a known. I'll go with the steak.
Hybrid effects can cover a lot of problems but not all. Closer breeding either expose traits that need correction or else the animals please the breeder and fit the environment. A pure animal with prepotency for good traits is a blessing to buyers and the producer.
