350,000 Dollar Bull
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Bestoutwest
Well-known member
What I don't understand is how you make your money back on something like this. That's a lot of straws and lot of extra lbs you'd have to have to get $350,000 back. I can see it on a $10,000 or even a $20,000 bull, but this seems like it is just a show of money from the big boys.
Bestoutwest
Well-known member
bball":fwtwcxv5 said:
He fits in nicely with today's society then. :hide:
wbvs58
Well-known member
You would have thought they would have hosed the shyt off him before filming after all they went to the trouble of putting a bit of straw down.
In Australia I think the buyers like to pay the high price for a good bull as the publicity they get for a record price sets them up well for 1st season semen sales but the our Angus record is only around $160,000, high enough but only 1/2 of that fellow.
Ken
In Australia I think the buyers like to pay the high price for a good bull as the publicity they get for a record price sets them up well for 1st season semen sales but the our Angus record is only around $160,000, high enough but only 1/2 of that fellow.
Ken
Oldtimer
Well-known member
frieghttrain":2v8pka2j said:
Actually it was bought by a consortium of Express Ranch's and the Texas oil billionaire Wilkes Brothers that bought the old N-Bar ranch ...
I dislike the articles that say this bull sold to a consortium of Montana ranchers... These are not true Montana ranchers- they are just extremely rich out of stater's that have not only bought up over 300,000 acres of Montana ranch land, but have ranch and real estate holdings/investments in Idaho, Texas, Kansas, Colorado, New Mexico and Oklahoma ...
But its always fun to watch the excitement stirred by the exchange of angus funny money... I had to chuckle when the bull sold and Auctioneer Joe Goggins asked Dave if they should just give the rest of the bulls away and head to the party...
Son of Butch
Well-known member
I'd say the guy selling him already did.tdc_cattle":8zvb6z24 said:
I always wonder who was the runner up bidder?
Did they really think 340K was worth it, but 350k was just too darn much?
mncowboy
Well-known member
Ebenezer
Well-known member
I did not look up the bull and don't plan to. There are reasons to buy a bull for an outlandish price. None of them have to do with the bull:
1-Ego of buyers. Like Barney Fife used to say, "This is BIg, ... REALLY BIG"!
2-Buying the allegiance of the seller instead of actually buying a bull
3-Gives buyers a chance to change their multi-color ads for a few months
4-Some of these are based on exchanges of cattle at some inflated price. So maybe there will be fifty $7000 cows or 25 $14000 cows traded for the bull. It happens and is good for taxes.
What a few high priced lots in any sell tells me is that only a few animals are decent and the rest are second string or C team. Anytime a group of contemporary unproven animals are offered they are all unproven. If most are bottom end then that is the wrong place to buy.
If they are from a real breeding program then they are going to be pretty much equal. If they are from a "buy my bull, and I'll buy yours" and "bull of the month, latest greatest AI bull" program then you have no idea what you are buying anyway because they do not know what they are selling.
We all know that EPDs are supposed to be better indicators of their offspring's potential but people will pay more money every time based on individual performance. Might as well take a Ouija board and pick animals before you go if you think that the individual performance will translate to better offspring in a high % of cases. How many bull test station winners ever were well known 10 years later? Few, ... VERY few.
In a real breeding program, as long as you get information from the breeder about nuances that he or she knows about specific animals, skip the auction, skip the blah, blah, blah from the sales experts brought in to drum up buyer excitement rather than know cattle and sell animals on a base price that is reasonable. Otherwise, it is more for show, smoke and mirrors, and pumping up buyers' adrenalin than for real cattle breeding purposes.
1-Ego of buyers. Like Barney Fife used to say, "This is BIg, ... REALLY BIG"!
2-Buying the allegiance of the seller instead of actually buying a bull
3-Gives buyers a chance to change their multi-color ads for a few months
4-Some of these are based on exchanges of cattle at some inflated price. So maybe there will be fifty $7000 cows or 25 $14000 cows traded for the bull. It happens and is good for taxes.
What a few high priced lots in any sell tells me is that only a few animals are decent and the rest are second string or C team. Anytime a group of contemporary unproven animals are offered they are all unproven. If most are bottom end then that is the wrong place to buy.
If they are from a real breeding program then they are going to be pretty much equal. If they are from a "buy my bull, and I'll buy yours" and "bull of the month, latest greatest AI bull" program then you have no idea what you are buying anyway because they do not know what they are selling.
We all know that EPDs are supposed to be better indicators of their offspring's potential but people will pay more money every time based on individual performance. Might as well take a Ouija board and pick animals before you go if you think that the individual performance will translate to better offspring in a high % of cases. How many bull test station winners ever were well known 10 years later? Few, ... VERY few.
In a real breeding program, as long as you get information from the breeder about nuances that he or she knows about specific animals, skip the auction, skip the blah, blah, blah from the sales experts brought in to drum up buyer excitement rather than know cattle and sell animals on a base price that is reasonable. Otherwise, it is more for show, smoke and mirrors, and pumping up buyers' adrenalin than for real cattle breeding purposes.
Oldtimer
Well-known member
Ebenezer":hf9omsqo said:
AMEN- many auctions/breeders thrive on emotion, commotion, and promotion...
For the last 40-50 years I have heard about the "Angus Mafia" and "Montana Mafia" concerning some angus breeders playing these high price swapping games and angus politics... The names change, but the practices pretty much stay the same...
In this case the owner of this bull announced he would like to run for the AAA Board of Directors... So you always wonder- are some wealthy folks trying to get in good with him prior to that- and buy some influence ?
I hope this is not true- and the whole sale was on the up and up and Dave and Billy get to pocket all that money with no strings attached- but history makes you suspicious...
Commercialfarmer
Well-known member
I won't speak to the particulars about this bull, but I'm not convinced it's all funny money.
Express ranches have made good money in this business, and they did so with smart management- agree or disagree with the cattle. They've had capital to play with that most operations don't. And the initial capital wasn't made in the industry. But turning the profit they've turned has been impressive.
How many $30-50 a straw bulls do they have shares or complete ownership in?
Sell 12000 straws of $30 semen and the capital is recaptured.
Sell 70 $5000 bulls and the profit is recovered.
They sell a lot of 5 to 10k bulls. If one partners interest is half or a 1/3, your only looking at half or a 1/3 the volume.
Last express sale I went to had something like 300 black bulls selling. And that was only 1 of the sales that year at this location. I don't know how many locations they sell at now, but it's more than the original ranch. And they have at least a fall and spring sale.
Looking only at logistics, I see it as feasible for an operation like theirs to make that kind of purchase and turn a profit.
I'd equate it to me trying to justify buying a grain elevator. If you say the numbers wouldn't work for what little I produce, you'd be right. But if the co-op down the road bought the same elevator, it would just be another part of their operation.
Express ranches have made good money in this business, and they did so with smart management- agree or disagree with the cattle. They've had capital to play with that most operations don't. And the initial capital wasn't made in the industry. But turning the profit they've turned has been impressive.
How many $30-50 a straw bulls do they have shares or complete ownership in?
Sell 12000 straws of $30 semen and the capital is recaptured.
Sell 70 $5000 bulls and the profit is recovered.
They sell a lot of 5 to 10k bulls. If one partners interest is half or a 1/3, your only looking at half or a 1/3 the volume.
Last express sale I went to had something like 300 black bulls selling. And that was only 1 of the sales that year at this location. I don't know how many locations they sell at now, but it's more than the original ranch. And they have at least a fall and spring sale.
Looking only at logistics, I see it as feasible for an operation like theirs to make that kind of purchase and turn a profit.
I'd equate it to me trying to justify buying a grain elevator. If you say the numbers wouldn't work for what little I produce, you'd be right. But if the co-op down the road bought the same elevator, it would just be another part of their operation.
Sunny Valley Farms paid $250,000 10 years ago for GAR integrity. He was the highest performing bull ever put through the GAR program. Ended up being something of a dink for a bull, no real barn burner in the AI world then came back NHC.
Sunny Valley Farms doesn't exist any more.
Sunny Valley Farms doesn't exist any more.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
You just missed the Easter bunny, too. But Santa will come in December if you are good.Commercialfarmer":1per32ox said:
But turning the profit they've turned has been impressive.
How do you know that they made a profit?
How many $30-50 a straw bulls do they have shares or complete ownership in?
The bull, I assume, is unproven. How do you know that they will be able to sell semen to anyone or for great value? And if they own a bunch of bulls or shares in bulls how do you figure this one bull is going to make them a better herd? Are the other bulls in the tank or pastures unable to do the job?
Sell 12000 straws of $30 semen and the capital is recaptured.
How many bulls ever sell 12000 straws?
Sell 70 $5000 bulls and the profit is recovered.
Still a loss because of the cost of the bulls. They could have made $350,000 in a flash to have just used their own bulls and left this one where he was. To make money they would have to sell 70 $10000 bulls that would have only been worth $5000 if sired by their current bulls; long stretch.
I still think allegiance was purchased from the seller. This is not a new ploy and like the old song - this ain't my first rodeo.
Commercialfarmer
Well-known member
You can speculate all day long rather the purchase was a poor business decision. You might be correct? It might not pan out. It might. That is part of capitalism and taking risk. I've not entered that discussion.
I stated it's very feasible how a bull with such a price might generate a profit for them. I'm guessing they feel stronger about it than that.
But, i imagine your right. The people with 3 bulls that ranked in the top 25 of Angus registrations in 2014 obviously don't know how to sell semen or progeny for that matter. They might have the number 1 bull, but the next only ranks around 8th, then falling all the way down to the 22nd ranked bull in the breed.
https://www.angus.org/pub/SIR100CalvesTop25_2014.pdf.
2015 is even worse. They couldn't hold onto the top registered AI sire spot. They might of had the 2nd, 5th, 9th and 11th top registered sires for 2015, but I highly doubt their breeding managers know anything about picking a possible stud.
https://www.angus.org/pub/SIR100CalvesTop25_2015.pdf
How many straws are sold on average for each calf that's actually registered?
Wonder how many straws of Waylon was shipped last year when it sold out in multiple distributors inventory? Wonder how many sons sold through the various partners last year?
As far as profit, I bet the people I've talk to from their organization have a pretty good idea of the money they've generated through some of their stock.
I have nothing to gain from defending their organization. They've treated me fairly and I think they deserve the same until dealt with otherwise. However, I'm willing for you to come back on here and prove me wrong when you track down their financials.
I'll be happy to keep celebrating Easter and Christmas and I'll let you keep April 1st. ;-)
Sorry, but you teed that up way to nicely to just let it go. :lol2:
I stated it's very feasible how a bull with such a price might generate a profit for them. I'm guessing they feel stronger about it than that.
But, i imagine your right. The people with 3 bulls that ranked in the top 25 of Angus registrations in 2014 obviously don't know how to sell semen or progeny for that matter. They might have the number 1 bull, but the next only ranks around 8th, then falling all the way down to the 22nd ranked bull in the breed.
https://www.angus.org/pub/SIR100CalvesTop25_2014.pdf.
2015 is even worse. They couldn't hold onto the top registered AI sire spot. They might of had the 2nd, 5th, 9th and 11th top registered sires for 2015, but I highly doubt their breeding managers know anything about picking a possible stud.
https://www.angus.org/pub/SIR100CalvesTop25_2015.pdf
How many straws are sold on average for each calf that's actually registered?
Wonder how many straws of Waylon was shipped last year when it sold out in multiple distributors inventory? Wonder how many sons sold through the various partners last year?
As far as profit, I bet the people I've talk to from their organization have a pretty good idea of the money they've generated through some of their stock.
I have nothing to gain from defending their organization. They've treated me fairly and I think they deserve the same until dealt with otherwise. However, I'm willing for you to come back on here and prove me wrong when you track down their financials.
I'll be happy to keep celebrating Easter and Christmas and I'll let you keep April 1st. ;-)
Sorry, but you teed that up way to nicely to just let it go. :lol2:
plumber_greg
Well-known member
I agree, it not funny money each time.
Several investors say, each put in 50k of cash money they have. Getting no or almost no interest on it.
High returns come with high risk. Why not invest in a bull. Good as anything else, real estate, ain't enough to use. Stock market, pay brokers and fees and not much left.
I've thought about investing in a parternship for a bull also. You may have the bull for 10-12 years if he proves good, semen sales long after that. After that, even if you lose your 50k in the end when he dies, you have done pretty good over a 20 year period on the 50k. Do your homework to give yourself a better chance. All business decisions are like that.
Guess you could put it in a savings account and earn $4 a year interest. 20 years, you'd have 80 more dollars.
It can be a business decision like anything else. I buy a piece of construction equipment for 50k, it isn't worth that when I sell it later, but I hope I use it enough to get a return on my money. No garuntee it will ever be pulled out of the lot. A bull can be just like that. No promises, but a business investment. gs
Several investors say, each put in 50k of cash money they have. Getting no or almost no interest on it.
High returns come with high risk. Why not invest in a bull. Good as anything else, real estate, ain't enough to use. Stock market, pay brokers and fees and not much left.
I've thought about investing in a parternship for a bull also. You may have the bull for 10-12 years if he proves good, semen sales long after that. After that, even if you lose your 50k in the end when he dies, you have done pretty good over a 20 year period on the 50k. Do your homework to give yourself a better chance. All business decisions are like that.
Guess you could put it in a savings account and earn $4 a year interest. 20 years, you'd have 80 more dollars.
It can be a business decision like anything else. I buy a piece of construction equipment for 50k, it isn't worth that when I sell it later, but I hope I use it enough to get a return on my money. No garuntee it will ever be pulled out of the lot. A bull can be just like that. No promises, but a business investment. gs
Ebenezer
Well-known member
No heartburn on my end. Good that you know the inside information on their operation and have the data and financial information. Data also helps to understand the reality. #1 bull for registrations, I assume in 2015, born in Jan 2012. Daughter proof would be minimum and maybe non existent when folks are buying semen and breeding cows. How will he breed?
Actually got their current catalog yesterday. Most of the footnotes tell that their bulls are superior in most if not in all traits. They do trend pretty high on MM, $B and like to raise bulls, apparently, with a lot of guts. In some cases, enough to sway down the spine. That is not my type and goal so there is a great difference for me.
They are mainstream Angus breeders infused with outside money and with numbers and politics are AAA leaders. I am not, will not be and have no desire. I want decent, consistent, prepotent and productive low-politics cattle that help me and neighbors. I want cattle with great feet and legs, great udders, able to calve, great maternal traits and instincts, able to wean in a targeted range while grazing 365 and, as one other active thread has been highlighting, all with the emphasis on longevity. I do not follow mainstream breeders. I have been on many of their farms and ranches quite a bit in about the last 50 years. I can tell you hair raising stories of poor cattle, wheeling and dealing, bad folks, bad judgment, ... Where I have found the most honest and helpful folks and the best cattle are in the herds and people who breed their own cattle, avoid the flash, make a living as best they can from the farm/ranch and work on raising cattle that are truly functional. Just saying.
I do like the first of April; so close to spring and the azaleas and dogwoods are almost ready to bloom, grass is growing, lambs and calves are being born, .... Glad that you picked up on that. Thanks. :tiphat:
Actually got their current catalog yesterday. Most of the footnotes tell that their bulls are superior in most if not in all traits. They do trend pretty high on MM, $B and like to raise bulls, apparently, with a lot of guts. In some cases, enough to sway down the spine. That is not my type and goal so there is a great difference for me.
They are mainstream Angus breeders infused with outside money and with numbers and politics are AAA leaders. I am not, will not be and have no desire. I want decent, consistent, prepotent and productive low-politics cattle that help me and neighbors. I want cattle with great feet and legs, great udders, able to calve, great maternal traits and instincts, able to wean in a targeted range while grazing 365 and, as one other active thread has been highlighting, all with the emphasis on longevity. I do not follow mainstream breeders. I have been on many of their farms and ranches quite a bit in about the last 50 years. I can tell you hair raising stories of poor cattle, wheeling and dealing, bad folks, bad judgment, ... Where I have found the most honest and helpful folks and the best cattle are in the herds and people who breed their own cattle, avoid the flash, make a living as best they can from the farm/ranch and work on raising cattle that are truly functional. Just saying.
I do like the first of April; so close to spring and the azaleas and dogwoods are almost ready to bloom, grass is growing, lambs and calves are being born, .... Glad that you picked up on that. Thanks. :tiphat:
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Bestoutwest":16ur984t said:
Maybe they will get a lot of free advertising?
probably some funny money mixed in there but, they will come out with a wise investment, just in advertisement. I found another bull back in 1982 that maybe I don't understand the total sale price but he sold way higher than this bull even back then.
In 1982, in search of a herd bull of unique merit and pedigree, Dr. Hammer became interested in the much publicized Auburn Test Station champion, Lovana, owned by Virgil Lovell, Clarkesville, Ga. This intensely bred Emulous bull carried a heavy concentration of Murray Corbin blood whose herd Ankony had purchased nearly 15 years before. Lovana was purchased from the Georgia firm for a record valuation of $1.35 million. It has proven time and time again to be one of the wisest investments Ankony Angus ever made. Lovana indeed followed in the footsteps of his predecessor, Ankonian Dynamo, with blanket acceptance throughout the breed
Even at that price says one of the wisest investments they ever made!!!
In 1982, in search of a herd bull of unique merit and pedigree, Dr. Hammer became interested in the much publicized Auburn Test Station champion, Lovana, owned by Virgil Lovell, Clarkesville, Ga. This intensely bred Emulous bull carried a heavy concentration of Murray Corbin blood whose herd Ankony had purchased nearly 15 years before. Lovana was purchased from the Georgia firm for a record valuation of $1.35 million. It has proven time and time again to be one of the wisest investments Ankony Angus ever made. Lovana indeed followed in the footsteps of his predecessor, Ankonian Dynamo, with blanket acceptance throughout the breed
Even at that price says one of the wisest investments they ever made!!!
I don't understand why this bull is getting so much press he isn't the highest selling bull this year that was back in Feb for 650,000.
http://www.angus.org/angusproductions/S ... 9OafTcE%3d
Gizmom
http://www.angus.org/angusproductions/S ... 9OafTcE%3d
Gizmom
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
gizmom":3ml5hrdn said:
So they got him for half price :banana:
Stocker Steve
That's right they were bargain shopping!
Gizmom
Stocker Steve":l7heud5d said:
That's right they were bargain shopping!
Gizmom
