350,000 Dollar Bull

[Commercialfarmer]

Where did I say they aren't legitimate? I said they don't come free.

What's your stance on climate change? It's really a rhetorical question as I don't want to starting a be nice match. But just because government funded universities preach something doesn't make it the only point of view especially when it comes to the profitability of individual operations.

Not a pissing match. Discussing pillars of production.

I apparently don't understand. Walk the line that you didn't say it wasn't legitimate, but then take jabs at it's credibility? Explain to me what you are saying...

And there is no data on what those university cows were."

or to equate it to climate change? Are you calling into question the data or not?

If not, then why bring up anything to do with the political religion of climate change that has absolutely no real world scientific data to back it? Hence the term itself which dates it to immediate history because all other political religions of the same dogma have fallen flat on their face. ie. man made global cooling and global warming. One being data supported for decades and decades, the other absolutely not. I don't see the connection.

I'm not a fan of big .gov. But this isn't about .gov This is about measurements and calculators.

 

[Jake]

I don't believe I have said that in any of my posts that there are not benefits to heterosis and crossbreeding. Their obviously are as the data backs up that growth and breed back in multiple breed crosses are indreased. Simple genetic dominances will show you that you can correct and improve through hybridization.

My point all along has been that there is not a free lunch with crossbreeding because there are costs associated with maintaining the level of heterosis to the point that it is still profitable. This is the teachings that I have issue with not the proven fact of heterosis. It's the my way or the highway attitude that goes with it.

my point with the climate change point is hat is the same government funding that funds both sciences. Both can be misconstrued and don't point a picture of profitability.

 

[Supa Dexta]

The problem is people take this heterosis thing as a golden egg. Used to be ya'd use whatever nice purebred bull you could afford, and put them on your mixed cows. Now they're being fed these crossbred bulls are the greatest thing since sliced bread, increasing that magic genetic punch!

Meanwhile they already had calves of every colour, unknown breeding, and strung out over months and months of a calving 'season'. Heterosis and crossbred animals aren't doing them any favours there.

Funny how pure bred breeders have calves weaning off at 800lbs without creep, but heterosis is some kind of amazing fix to get you those 5 and 600lb calves. - And I'm not saying heterosis doesn't exist, only that many producers could do one of a dozen things towards better animal husbandry and reap similar results.

 

[Ebenezer]

Not trying to steal the thread, but if hybrid vigor is highly researched, proven, benefits the commercial producer, ... then why have many producers turned to cross breed bulls like balancers, sim angus and other crossed bulls that will "steal" part of the hybrid pop on the first generation? Seems counterintuitive.

Hybrid vigor is real, no doubt. But the extra growth on calves is not free. Each pound either requires more milk or more forage.

Somebody earlier said (in a clearer way) that there is no difference in % heterosis when using either a generic parent of breed A crossed with breed B regardless of inbreeding or wide line crossing. That is true. So a $2200 bull and a $350000 bull from the same breed would deliver the same hybrid vigor. The difference is the quality of the crossed results and the traits that have either been concentrated or eliminated by the line work.

 

[Son of Butch]

why have many producers turned to cross breed bulls like balancers, sim angus and other crossed bulls....

Convenience and Price
Lower cost of producing f1's vs added costs of producing purebreds gives many breeders a higher Net Profit selling a crossbred bull vs a purebred bull. Seller doesn't need to use the knife as often when selling crossbreds as heterosis helps cover a multitude of an individual's sins and the f1 culls outperform the purebred culls in the feedlot to boot.
All gives the crossbred bull seller a big advantage in marketing to price conscience buyers.

 

[Ebenezer]

why have many producers turned to cross breed bulls like balancers, sim angus and other crossed bulls....

Convenience and Price
Lower cost of producing f1's vs added costs of producing purebreds gives many breeders a higher Net Profit selling a crossbred bull vs a purebred bull. Seller doesn't need to use the knife as often when selling crossbreds as heterosis helps cover a multitude of an individual's sins and the f1 culls outperform the purebred culls in the feedlot to boot.
All gives the crossbred bull seller a big advantage in marketing to price conscience buyers.

Wouldn't the heifers be F2s from a crossbred bull so that the hybrid vigor actually decreases and the width of genetic differences increases? Are these heifers efficient in size or do they have size creep? Maybe the "pure" breeds been mixed so much anymore that it actually is not an issue? I assume that this is the theory of Black Herefords and other recent developments to have improvement, sins covered yet higher dollar hair color?

 

[Son of Butch]

At best... balancer bulls, sim angus sires and other crossbred bulls are f1s, so no way their daughters can be f1s
Then add to it the fact that many of these bulls are not even f1s but produced from f1 x f1 matings or whatever
so now the bull isn't even an f1 and then depending what you are breeding him to...who knows where you end up.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

We can agree or disagree about practicality depending on a given system, I agree. But again, source of funding doesn't change solid evidence no matter how much someone wants it to. BS politics is BS politics. Legitimate studies are legitimate. To attempt to discredit any studies performed by our universities because they are state tax payer funded is silly, doesn't matter if you attended one or not. Following the line of thinking, we should just flush every bit of cancer research at places like MD Anderson down the toilet, being a University hospital and where funding may have originated.

We live in the information age. There's plenty of private industry research, but you won't see it.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Hybrid vigor is real, no doubt. But the extra growth on calves is not free. Each pound either requires more milk or more forage.

Biggest cost of operation is maintaining the dam. The smaller cow to a point has been thought to be more efficient. Efficient because of lbs weaned per maintenance requirement of the cow. Having increased calf weight makes this cow more efficient- unless this calf's gain somehow taxes the system more than a contemporary calf. I haven't seen any evidence to show me that a calf gaining by the effects of heterosis requires an increased percent intake per lb of gain than a contemporary calf. Even if it did, that increased intake would also have to outpace what is required to not only produce that same gain in a contemporary but also maintain another dam unit to do so before it would be less efficient. Until then, I don't buy the argument that weight gain through heterosis is less efficient than a contemporary calf. There is a lot of cost in maintaining a dam. So if in fact, there is an increase in weight that is more efficent- i.e. less cost per lb, then there is an increase in efficiency. That increased efficiency by only changing the sire selection, is what is termed "free".

Besides increased fertility in cross bred dams, I believe there is also a slight increase in pregnancy rate for full blood dams bred to a sire of unsimilar breed. The far majority of loss of pregnancy occurs very early and from gene matching that is just not viable. Having dissimilar genetic pairs, the likelyhood of nonviable embryo's decreases.

Again, how that figures into a system is a different story.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

why have many producers turned to cross breed bulls like balancers, sim angus and other crossed bulls....

Convenience and Price
Lower cost of producing f1's vs added costs of producing purebreds gives many breeders a higher Net Profit selling a crossbred bull vs a purebred bull. Seller doesn't need to use the knife as often when selling crossbreds as heterosis helps cover a multitude of an individual's sins and the f1 culls outperform the purebred culls in the feedlot to boot.
All gives the crossbred bull seller a big advantage in marketing to price conscience buyers.

Agree, and I also think a bit by the industry push to get a 1/4 to 1/8th continental by feeders and packers.

 

[cow pollinater]

All I can tell you what has evolved into a working system for us. We have neighbors who are using two breed systems and we have higher breed ups and more acres weaned per acre than they do.

Yes, but look at how careful you are about sire selection. The best angus cattle will outperform crossbreds of mediocre parentage. If you were to apply heterosis and be as careful in your genetic selection as you've been running only angus you'd really leave them in the dust.
As far as economics, the calves that really perform on a grid are 3/4 english 1/4 continental and half angus is preferred. That leaves a lot of room for genetic input that still gives you uniformity. Limflex over baldies, balancers, South devon over angus, there's lots of ways to do it and they all work if you let them.

 

[Jake]

All I can tell you what has evolved into a working system for us. We have neighbors who are using two breed systems and we have higher breed ups and more acres weaned per acre than they do.

Yes, but look at how careful you are about sire selection. The best angus cattle will outperform crossbreds of mediocre parentage. If you were to apply heterosis and be as careful in your genetic selection as you've been running only angus you'd really leave them in the dust.
As far as economics, the calves that really perform on a grid are 3/4 english 1/4 continental and half angus is preferred. That leaves a lot of room for genetic input that still gives you uniformity. Limflex over baldies, balancers, South devon over angus, there's lots of ways to do it and they all work if you let them.

My plan would be to start using terminal crossbreeding once I get the base of the herd where I want it to be both size and quality wise. There are some fleckvieh bulls that I really like and a few Herefords even.

Another thing that has me intrigued is the possibility of selling the lower half of the heifers out as replacements. Whether they are straightbred or f1

 

[cow pollinater]

Only thing, they have to eat 7% more to do it unless there is data that generic crossbreeding increases feed efficiency.

Limousin.
Gelbvieh has started testing RFI as well but for now limousin is the obvious choice for feed efficiency.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Limousin for feed efficiency?

I think I'd pick another French breed well before I'd pick them ...

:hide:

 

[Jake]

I must say this has been my favorite thread for quite some time on here.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Limousin for feed efficiency?

I think I'd pick another French breed well before I'd pick them ...

:hide:

The bull means alot. Our recent Limo bull is quite a small one, so had some problems last year with his first set of calves when needed to sell them. Especially heifers. Now still have three, which will turn two years old in a couple months, and can't sell them to abroad because they'll be too small. Now decided to keep them for a few more months, to grow them until ~1200lbs, breed them and sell to somebody as they are quite good looking and friendly heifers. This year have added grounded beans to the ration and increased the grain amount, so should finish bulls and heifers quicker.
The new Limo bull is much bigger, so gonna see how his calves will grow.
Have seen many Limox calves which grow very well just nursing their dams and reach ~1000-1100lbs weight at 7-8months age. So the bull has a huge role.

 

[Muddy]

Maybe they could add lot of pounds, but limousin is the least marbling beef breed.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Selection makes all the difference. Walnut Crest I would guess you have a lot of experience with Limousin? So maybe you could explain to me just what your problems with them are.

 

[Gators Rule]

Limousin for feed efficiency?

I think I'd pick another French breed well before I'd pick them ...

:hide:

Would I raise PB or FB limousins for the feedlot? Nope, but in a heartbeat would I raise Limo X English for the feedlot. Here's the deal.... You cant put a PB or FB Limo bull on a group of angus or Hereford based commercial cows to create that cross without having a PB or FB bull. I don't think any Limo breeders raise PB or FB limousin for the feedlot. They are raised to cross, at least from my perspective.

 

[Muddy]

They are raised to cross, at least from my perspective.

Thats what I am thinking. Angus, Hereford and Jersey add the marbling to the carcass. Limo just beef them up.