2 yr Angus bull - what do you think?

[kenny thomas]

two questions. what is the animal status declaration and what does a stock agent do?

 

[cowman30]

two questions. what is the animal status declaration and what does a stock agent do?

The animal status declaration sounds like those cool affidavits we have to fill out. I would say a stock agent is like the local livestock inspector. He might even be an order buyer. Regolith please clarify.

 

[regolith]

A stock agent buys and sells animals for folks - they take a commission on the sale.

I'm going to be mean and google up a link to show (it's not as if I've said anything here I haven't said to the guy's face apart from the exasperation word that got be-niced-out above):

http://www.rd1.com/web/content?in_secti ... _item=1738

They can work independently, or for other companies - meat buyers, trading stores.

The Animal Status Declaration (ASD) form has to be filled out to accompany an animal every time it moves - to another farm, to the meat works, wherever. It's mostly for TB (tuberculosis) control - you have to state on the form whether this animal has been tested, whether your herd has been tested, if there were any TB reactors. So when the bull arrived, I was given the ASD as he was unloaded with his former owner's name, phone number and approximate location. I think it's in the folder at my feet...

I think of a livestock inspector as being like a Ministry of Agriculture vet? The guys who come round to test your cattle for TB, or investigate animal welfare issues. Definitely not the same as a stock agent.

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

"Ah: Loch Valley Fold - yes, it's the twins that caused that. Hard year with drought last year and the herd weren't as fat as I'd have liked going into calving, but anything else that light would have been sick.

Yeah know what you mean has been a hard year for most dairy farmers in Australia, & now with the price cuts it going to be tougher for some more than others.

"I hope the 'exactly like' photos is *only* the one of the AI-sired calves? I've seen some odd supposedly-Angus calves before, but nothing like these creatures.

Nope they were like the first calf under the twins & the lighter brown one that is laying down. He gets good money for those types of calves too.

You might want to look at the Genetics Australia website http://www.genaust.com.au for information on their 3 way cross breeding program using Holstein x Aussie Red x Montbelaird http://www.embryoplus.com/cattle_montbeliard.html as an alternative to using Jerseys. You are already half way there with the Jersey x Holsteins, rather than using Angus try a dual purpose breed Fleckvieh Simmental is another example & I know from experience that these cows can milk

 

[regolith]

I'm not sure drought in New Zealand means quite what it means in Australia...

Thanks for those suggestions. Aussie Red isn't a breed I've heard of. Montbeliard I've come across. I've been wondering for a while whether to switch breeds/what to switch to. At this stage I don't even have animals from sires I've nominated (as opposed to the breeding company's 'bull of the day') in the herd yet, that'll happen next spring.
I'm using Brown Swiss as a third cross right now. Worked with BS/Holstein crosses for a year in Scotland and they were easily the best cows in the herd. But they're too big for my cows and I'm worried that continuing to use the breed over first crosses is calving issues waiting to happen. A moderate-sized Red breed over the first cross would still be a complete outcross. And going the AI-route, might get a couple of Simmental-cross heifers and see how they compare. I need to be careful not to drop the over-all breeding values of the herd too much since I'm share-milking... so slowly, carefully.

 

[regolith]

Montbeliard is Simmental? So that's why they've got the white face. I knew there was a milk strain and a beef strain, never thought they'd moved so far apart.
First farm I worked on in UK was using Simmental as an easy-calving sire over British Friesian - just run-of-the-mill beef type service bull. We took a few of the heifers through, sold them on the point of first calving or with calf at foot. And a couple of them ended up in the dairy herd.
They were excellent cows.

I have heard of Red Breeds. And suddenly a former discussion makes sense. I know of other dairies here who are breeding their whole herd to them because they don't like what's on offer from the local Holstein-Friesian and Jersey sires.

 

[kenny thomas]

Thanks for the info on the animal status disclosure and the agent.
Looks like the form would make tracing the animal very easy.
Are you required to use a sales agent or is this just for convenience?

 

[kenny thomas]

I have a few Simmental/Holstein cross cows that I raised from a dairy. They are not as heavy milkers as I expected but still plenty for a beef cow. Some Simmental bulls have much better milk EPD's that the one they used. Those Simmental/Holstein crossed back to angus their calves show no milk stock.

 

[regolith]

Are those nice beef calves, the sim/angus/holstein? I found an image on the internet not long ago of a Red Angus/Simmental bull (before finding this place and all its pictures). Beautiful animal - I printed it out, started lots of dreams.

The way we feed dairy cows - traditionally - in New Zealand they do half their genetic potential, if that. If they did do what they were capable of a lot of them wouldn't last - good udders hasn't been a strong selecting point for the NZ strains. That just puts things in a bit of perspective when I start saying beef crosses compete well against their dairy peers - the Simm/Friesian crosses in Scotland were under similar feed conditions.

Using a stock agent is convenience, it's also a recognised way to work and they've got the best means of matching up sellers and buyers. I need to learn the sales system if I want to bypass him with selling calves, and that'll be when I've got a more steady supply of saleable calves and time. Meantime, next time I need a stock agent it won't be this one I call - last year another one shifted two cows for me within the week after the former had had them on his list for a couple months.
Asking him to buy bulls for me - it's a busy time of year, it's also probably a stupid risk considering what I've seen on previous farms that were direct buying from Angus breeders and *still* getting large calves with white markings and horns. But at least it gives you a better idea what you're getting, if you can go and see the cows and talk to the breeder. Going through the stock agent there's no contact between buyer and seller.

 

[kenny thomas]

Calves look good but cows Simm/Holstein cross can be big. Simmental will add muscle to the holstein and usually the Simmental milk good also.

Do you have a cattle sale barn nearby. If so I would rather trust it than what the agent is doing. At least you could get them sold the same day for whatever they are worth that day.

Here many holstein milking heavly, at their top production, milked three times a day, are culled by the time they are 6-7 years old.

Very interesting to me how different things are around the world.

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

There are many crosses to work with though I don't know how limited yor are with whats currently on offer. If your only using Jerseys to lower bw than you really need to look at some of the lower bw holsteins that are currently on the market. There are many Brittish Friesians becoming available, look into getting some of them Norweigion Reds are another, if you are not careful you will get to the stage where the only available cross option is to go pure Jersey. Personally I won't use NZ genetics especially Jerseys as they won't milk under my conditions, dry off way too early & would prefer to put weight on themselves rather than produce milk. I know of a Jersey breeder in NZ that consistently have Jersey calves born that weigh between 30 - 40kgs.

 

[Putangitangi]

...Asking him to buy bulls for me - it's a busy time of year, it's also probably a stupid risk considering what I've seen on previous farms that were direct buying from Angus breeders and *still* getting large calves with white markings and horns. But at least it gives you a better idea what you're getting, if you can go and see the cows and talk to the breeder. Going through the stock agent there's no contact between buyer and seller.

Bulls from Angus breeders throwing what amounts of white and where? Horns or scurs? Scurs are common out of horned dairy stock, in my experience. Did you (or they) go back to the breeders in regard to those problems? Were they registered breeders, or people just breeding bulls to sell into dairy clean-up?

 

[regolith]

Here many holstein milking heavly, at their top production, milked three times a day, are culled by the time they are 6-7 years old.

Kenny, if you (or anyone else who knows) could let me know what the normal oldest cow in those herds would be I'd be interested in that number. I've seen too many times the statement (from animal welfare groups) that dairies routinely cull their cows after only one or two years due to milk drop, and I'm sure it's not true.
Most farms I've worked on, the oldest cow would be 14 or 15.

Bulls from Angus breeders throwing what amounts of white and where? Horns or scurs? Scurs are common out of horned dairy stock, in my experience. Did you (or they) go back to the breeders in regard to those problems? Were they registered breeders, or people just breeding bulls to sell into dairy clean-up?

One bull, I suspect. Don't know the details of where it was bought, but we had a few calves with white feet, white tail tips. Then a black heifer with the whole collection - forehead star, white feet, white tail tip, might have had white on the underside as well. I don't recall if any of these had horns, but I don't think so. My boss did go back to the breeder, the breeder said something about his son must have lied/been mistaken about whether or not a certain cow was on heat when a Friesian bull jumped the fence... (it's *hard* not to remember an excuse like that).
A few years later on another farm we ran three Angus bulls, one the boss had bred himself (he had Angus cows alongside the dairy), the other two bought from a breeder. I asked him some pretty hard questions about his own bull when I started to put two and two together, but by then it was too late - he'd run with one group of heifers, one of the Angus with another, the third, meanest bull I've ever had to handle, with the dairy herd. I knew which bull had been where, and the following season we hauled calves out of heifers from both groups. The horned ones and the Friesian-type markings were from his own bull - it was 3/4 Holstein Friesian.
But I heard him later tell other people 'must have been Friesian in those bulls he bought'. I don't think he got any more bulls from that breeder - fair enough; one of those bulls certainly caused a lot of calving issues. But if he said they were throwing Friesian calves (and I heard him say it), it was wrong.
I believe the first was a registered breeder, the second wan't claiming they were pure Angus.

I think I might have encountered my first set of scurs this year, from Te Maniu over a crossbred cow. Never heard of them till seeing them mentioned in these forums, and most Angus crosses I've handled either have horns or they don't - seen several with proper horns, never believed they were 50% Angus.
I reared a bull calf for IHC, and checked his head and painted a cross on his back when he was eight weeks old so that the vet wouldn't de-horn him. Vet claimed he found horns. I'd checked the day before and whatever he had wasn't horns, the skull felt a bit bony but no points.
So had argument with vet over whether or not Angus crosses could have horns.

Do you know anything about how LIC sources their beef bulls? I find it a bit rough that there's no information given about them and no choice in which bull you get, but I've never asked for details on these bulls either.

 

[regolith]

If your only using Jerseys to lower bw than you really need to look at some of the lower bw holsteins that are currently on the market.

The main aim in fact is hybrid vigour, followed by easy calving. Working with this herd is the first time I've really worked with Jersey cows - I wanted crossbreeds, a lot of what was available was Jersey and I reckon you couldn't get a better milk cow than the best of them. But my aim is to breed them up to a crossbred then outcross the next generation.

Samen are the guys to be talking to if I want to get away from NZ genetics - and I strongly suspect that in a few years I will. There are other companies importing semen, but very low profile and some of the less-used breeds LIC sells come through an arrangement with Samen - I can e-mail LIC for information about their three Brown Swiss bulls, or contact Samen about those three and three or four others.
Trying to understand converted proofs is a pain, but I've put a bit of time into understanding the NZ evaluation system and find that annoyingly inconsistent anyway.

 

[Putangitangi]

Bulls from Angus breeders throwing what amounts of white and where? Horns or scurs? Scurs are common out of horned dairy stock, in my experience. Did you (or they) go back to the breeders in regard to those problems? Were they registered breeders, or people just breeding bulls to sell into dairy clean-up?

One bull, I suspect. Don't know the details of where it was bought, but we had a few calves with white feet, white tail tips. Then a black heifer with the whole collection - forehead star, white feet, white tail tip, might have had white on the underside as well. I don't recall if any of these had horns, but I don't think so. My boss did go back to the breeder, the breeder said something about his son must have lied/been mistaken about whether or not a certain cow was on heat when a Friesian bull jumped the fence... (it's *hard* not to remember an excuse like that).
A few years later on another farm we ran three Angus bulls, one the boss had bred himself (he had Angus cows alongside the dairy), the other two bought from a breeder. I asked him some pretty hard questions about his own bull when I started to put two and two together, but by then it was too late - he'd run with one group of heifers, one of the Angus with another, the third, meanest bull I've ever had to handle, with the dairy herd. I knew which bull had been where, and the following season we hauled calves out of heifers from both groups. The horned ones and the Friesian-type markings were from his own bull - it was 3/4 Holstein Friesian.
But I heard him later tell other people 'must have been Friesian in those bulls he bought'. I don't think he got any more bulls from that breeder - fair enough; one of those bulls certainly caused a lot of calving issues. But if he said they were throwing Friesian calves (and I heard him say it), it was wrong.
I believe the first was a registered breeder, the second wan't claiming they were pure Angus.

I think I might have encountered my first set of scurs this year, from Te Mania over a crossbred cow. Never heard of them till seeing them mentioned in these forums, and most Angus crosses I've handled either have horns or they don't - seen several with proper horns, never believed they were 50% Angus.
I reared a bull calf for IHC, and checked his head and painted a cross on his back when he was eight weeks old so that the vet wouldn't de-horn him. Vet claimed he found horns. I'd checked the day before and whatever he had wasn't horns, the skull felt a bit bony but no points.
So had argument with vet over whether or not Angus crosses could have horns.

Do you know anything about how LIC sources their beef bulls? I find it a bit rough that there's no information given about them and no choice in which bull you get, but I've never asked for details on these bulls either.

If an "Angus cross" has horns, its sire wasn't an straight Angus bull. However, I've seen some very large scurs, definitely identified them as such (wobbly on the skull when the calf was young) and then watched them grow out to the tips of his ears and look exactly like horns.

Some of my commercial cows are from dairy origins and I still see the occasional set of scurs - but with a pedigree Angus bull, you should NEVER see them in a heifer, only in male calves who require only one parent to pass the gene. Heifers require two copies and a purebred bull will not carry it, but horned cows or their progeny often do.

I've used LIC's Angus selection in the past and got some really good calves. I too could not get any firm commitment about which bulls would be supplied, but they did tell me who was in the 'team'. The bull names/numbers are printed on the straws and on the paperwork which came with them and you can always look them up in the NZ Angus database.

I have an idea of a poster who may be able to answer how LIC source their calving-ease beef bulls more adequately than I ... watch this space.

 

[kenny thomas]

Regolith, the oldest cow in my friend's dairy herd is 9 but very few make it to then. Never outside from before their first calf until they are culled.

 

[waihou]

In response to the quustion
[Do you know anything about how LIC sources their beef bulls? I find it a bit rough that there's no information given about them and no choice in which bull you get, but I've never asked for details on these bulls either.]
I do know that LIC has approached members of the Murray Grey Society (at the Mystery Creek Fieldays) to find out if anyone had low EBV birthweight bulls they could collect. One guy who happened to have a bull bred by us, put him up as he had low Birth EBV (EPDs in USA) and several crops of calves so a good accuracy. He went through all the health tests and went to the collection centre.
The straws are evidently named and with the bulls registered number-so would be able to look their pedigree and EBV's up on line for a lot of beef breeds in NZ. If you only ask for a low BW "bull of the day' you get whatever is available-but you can still find out which bull it was if you ask or read the straw, as far as I know.

 

[regolith]

Thanks. I've bought short gestation Angus for a couple of years, so I knew the bull's code and name would be on the straw (and an overall BV goes against the cow's record for her expected calf, so presumably if the calf was correctly identified and recorded it could be traced back to sire). But the name was literally the only information I had. Looking up the bulls sounds good advice.
I've seen Waigroup advertising in the farming papers at pre-mating time, and recognised the name from the straws. Te Mania/Te Maniu (did I spell it wrong?) could have come from anywhere far as I knew - but he threw nice calves if used on a decent cow.

 

[Putangitangi]

Yes, Te Mania. They are in Australia as well. What bull/s did you get via AI?

 

[regolith]

This is the only calf I kept to weaning, out of a large crossbred cow:

I'd say he's Te Mania but... uh... his conception is a long story.
Okay, a short story. The cow was extremely deep, jumping around during AI and the first straw (Te Mania, 705004) got be niced on and then trampled. No better luck with a second straw (Waigroup Shalom Ol, 705179), so I just off-loaded it into the vagina of the wriggling cow and hoped for better behaviour on the next heat.
Months later I realised there'd never been another heat and yup - she was in calf to some lucky piece of DNA from one of those straws. This boy was born about four days after the official start of calving. (I bought both bulls the previous year, 07, and these were a few straws left over).

I think the bulls I used last year were also Waigroup Shalom Ol, but different codes - 706009 and 707026. The two AB Angus-Jerseys on the first page were both 706009.

If you squint you'd see that the calf above has been dehorned (though he didn't have horns). He's about ten weeks old there.