“Losing Ground” Time to wake up!

[Bright Raven]

It's not wise to run your mouth all the time, but you've mastered it. I wasn't talking to you, stay out of it.

You would do well to take your own advice.

Didn't take you long to return to your usual ways.

I have no inclination to engage you. I hope this is the last time. I also trust that the Moderators observe your attempts at "stirring the pot".

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I wish someone would make a semi reasonable offer on our place, I'd be gone in a flash.

 

[Ebenezer]

I keep thinking that the government is going to quit giving welfare to farmers one of these days. Then the land prices will be back where you can afford to buy a little more land to put cattle on. The way I see it is you can't afford to buy land to expand your cattle operation and think it's a good investment. And land rent is to high for cattlemen that live in row crop country, and the reason is because of the farmers are willing to pay more to lose more. A crop insurance agent told me that no one in his three counties can farm without borrowing money every year? I don't see that as a positive cash flow.

It is part of the cheap food policy and also a way to get an equal share of fed funds into rural areas. Without farm programs, most fed dollars would go only to rural areas. If you can find an ag/legislative historian there were planned efforts to make early conservation programs into financial payments to do just that. Too bad for H. H. Bennett and his real desire to help.

On the other hand, housing construction and all that tags along with new development( furniture, fixtures, roads, sewer, water, shopping, schools, ...) drive the economy to a large part. So nothing can be done to intentionally slow or hurt that part of the overall economy. So it is a balancing act that government has taken on to be a no-win in a lot of cases. Pandora's box is open.

 

[JMJ Farms]

A Crop Insurance Agent told me that no one in his three counties can farm without borrowing money every year? I don't see that as a positive cash flow.

I understand your point. But with respect to the farmers..... It's very easy for an operation of 5000 acres to cost $10 million a year to operate. Not many have that kind of money laying around. So even if they wind up with $12 million at the end of the year when they sell the crops, and let's just say hypothetically that they had a $1.5 million profit, which is a 15% return (pretty dang respectable), they still don't have enough money to operate the following year.

The only way to do it would be to grow very slowly and save a lot for many years. And if one saved $10 million, I would thing farming would be low on the priority list! AND, if I had $10 million and wanted to farm, I really don't believe I'd use my money even then. Rather spend someone else's.

And last but not least, some borrow money to operate. Some borrow money to buy new toys. Doesn't take long to differentiate between the two.

 

[True Grit Farms]

A Crop Insurance Agent told me that no one in his three counties can farm without borrowing money every year? I don't see that as a positive cash flow.

I understand your point. But with respect to the farmers..... It's very easy for an operation of 5000 acres to cost $10 million a year to operate. Not many have that kind of money laying around. So even if they wind up with $12 million at the end of the year when they sell the crops, and let's just say hypothetically that they had a $1.5 million profit, which is a 15% return (pretty dang respectable), they still don't have enough money to operate the following year.

The only way to do it would be to grow very slowly and save a lot for many years. And if one saved $10 million, I would thing farming would be low on the priority list! AND, if I had $10 million and wanted to farm, I really don't believe I'd use my money even then. Rather spend someone else's.

And last but not least, some borrow money to operate. Some borrow money to buy new toys. Doesn't take long to differentiate between the two.

All that is very true. I'd like to expand a little but I'm not into renting ground and $4k per acre for irrigated land is more than I can justify spending on a hobby. There's definitely not many farmers that drive older trucks like us, I guess most are rich and are just crying poor mouth.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I wish someone would make a semi reasonable offer on our place, I'd be gone in a flash.

I feel the same. I've been offered cash deals for our operation, cattle and the whole kit and kaboodle, but I know how much it takes to live comfortably in the city. Even a place like Lexington Kentucky is anything but inexpensive. San Francisco, that's sheer insanity, unless you just cashed out of a tech company.

Even cashing out with $2 million doesn't make for much of a retirement. Try moving to South Florida with two million, it wouldn't take long to spend that and then what? Those areas have a huge amount of competition for jobs, yet wages are stagnant.

The best businesses to be in are those with very high barriers to entry.

I've thought about setting up a manufacturing facility on cheap land in KY that employs 3D metal printers, or buying a fleet of Tesla electric semi trucks. There are still great businesses waiting to be opened, it's just that the capital expenditure to do it is enormous. That and I am pretty addicted to the cattle right now.

From what I can tell, a tech business, completely web based with as few employees as possible is the highest margin, highest return investment you can have.

If most cattle producers would take a bet on seed funding investment in Silicon Valley and it hit big time; then they could farm at a loss with no worries. Their investment would take care of them and their families for multiple generations. Something that is becoming much harder to do with farming alone.

It's all pretty bleak in the big picture for farms.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I wish someone would make a semi reasonable offer on our place, I'd be gone in a flash.

I feel the same. I've been offered cash deals for our operation, cattle and the whole kit and kaboodle, but I know how much it takes to live comfortably in the city. Even a place like Lexington Kentucky is anything but inexpensive. San Francisco, that's sheer insanity, unless you just cashed out of a tech company.

Even cashing out with $2 million doesn't make for much of a retirement. Try moving to South Florida with two million, it wouldn't take long to spend that and then what? Those areas have a huge amount of competition for jobs, yet wages are stagnant.

The best businesses to be in are those with very high barriers to entry.

I've thought about setting up a manufacturing facility on cheap land in KY that employs 3D metal printers, or buying a fleet of Tesla electric semi trucks. There are still great businesses waiting to be opened, it's just that the capital expenditure to do it is enormous. That and I am pretty addicted to the cattle right now.

From what I can tell, a tech business, completely web based with as few employees as possible is the highest margin, highest return investment you can have.

If most cattle producers would take a bet on seed funding investment in Silicon Valley and it hit big time; then they could farm at a loss with no worries. Their investment would take care of them and their families for multiple generations. Something that is becoming much harder to do with farming alone.

It's all pretty bleak in the big picture for farms.

I'm from south Florida and still have a few rental properties there. I also have a lot of friends that I went to school with that are set and quit well off with nothing more than a high school education. You can literally make millions being a welder, plumber, roofer, concrete finisher, drywall contractor, sheet metal shop, painter and the list is endless. All you have to do is put your time in, do what you say you'll do, and do it when you say you'll do it. Just a little common sense and being able to keep your nose clean, anyone can make a good living in south Florida.
The problem is no one wants to live there once they have enough to get out. Living in the city - suburbs around the yankees and rich people stink.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Do you ever say anything positive?

I should of added owning pressure washing company to the list.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Do you ever say anything positive?

Farming is a great business! There, how is that for positive?

I assure you that if I am still grinding it out in the mud and manure, I think there is still some merit left in the business. I'm not out doing this in a podunk town because it's the most darn fun I have ever had, and for all the excitement that the place offers.

I'm halfway decent at spotting trends, and I see a very clear one developing in agriculture and farmland. If that is negative, so be it.

It's only negative if you are on the losing side of the trade.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I wish someone would make a semi reasonable offer on our place, I'd be gone in a flash.

I feel the same. I've been offered cash deals for our operation, cattle and the whole kit and kaboodle, but I know how much it takes to live comfortably in the city. Even a place like Lexington Kentucky is anything but inexpensive. San Francisco, that's sheer insanity, unless you just cashed out of a tech company.

Even cashing out with $2 million doesn't make for much of a retirement. Try moving to South Florida with two million, it wouldn't take long to spend that and then what? Those areas have a huge amount of competition for jobs, yet wages are stagnant.

The best businesses to be in are those with very high barriers to entry.

I've thought about setting up a manufacturing facility on cheap land in KY that employs 3D metal printers, or buying a fleet of Tesla electric semi trucks. There are still great businesses waiting to be opened, it's just that the capital expenditure to do it is enormous. That and I am pretty addicted to the cattle right now.

From what I can tell, a tech business, completely web based with as few employees as possible is the highest margin, highest return investment you can have.

If most cattle producers would take a bet on seed funding investment in Silicon Valley and it hit big time; then they could farm at a loss with no worries. Their investment would take care of them and their families for multiple generations. Something that is becoming much harder to do with farming alone.

It's all pretty bleak in the big picture for farms.

I'm from south Florida and still have a few rental properties there. I also have a lot of friends that I went to school with that are set and quit well off with nothing more than a high school education. You can literally make millions being a welder, plumber, roofer, concrete finisher, drywall contractor, sheet metal shop, painter and the list is endless. All you have to do is put your time in, do what you say you'll do, and do it when you say you'll do it. Just a little common sense and being able to keep your nose clean, anyone can make a good living in south Florida.
The problem is no one wants to live there once they have enough to get out. Living in the city - suburbs around the yankees and rich people stink.

You are right, you can make some stupid cash down there, but when you figure that everything you consume from groceries to utilities is WAY ABOVE the national average in cost, not to mention car insurance, home insurance and taxes, and ultimately the cost of your actual housing. South Florida becomes not so appealing. You are working to live not the other way around.

South Florida is fantastic if you have a big income stream that is passive and all you do is chill out.

When a starter home is $250k or more, it's hard to work your way out of that, unless you own the company.

As for rentals there, when you factor in your capitalization rate on real estate, if you bought a long time ago it makes sense, if you are buying right now, you are probably cashing someone out in the musical chairs game. Buying in a place where you may not be able to get insurance in 10-15 years or where the property might suffer flooding on a regular basis is not appealing to me, I would far prefer multifamily further inland, which will be in high demand after a Cat 5 levels the place. But I will say this in your defense, you can charge people out the azz for rent, and they will pay it. I once looked at a property for investment, a duplex that was literally a former crack house, it was in Ft. Lauderdale, I walked in and it had needles and crack pipes along with old mattresses and condoms on the floor. I passed on it, which was a mistake, I could have bought it for $150k at the time. It's now refurbished, worth about $380k, and both sides rent for over $2k a month. Still kicking myself on that one.

My barn stalls were more appealing to sleep in than that dump. But anything can be renovated, right?

 

[JMJ Farms]

A Crop Insurance Agent told me that no one in his three counties can farm without borrowing money every year? I don't see that as a positive cash flow.

I understand your point. But with respect to the farmers..... It's very easy for an operation of 5000 acres to cost $10 million a year to operate. Not many have that kind of money laying around. So even if they wind up with $12 million at the end of the year when they sell the crops, and let's just say hypothetically that they had a $1.5 million profit, which is a 15% return (pretty dang respectable), they still don't have enough money to operate the following year.

The only way to do it would be to grow very slowly and save a lot for many years. And if one saved $10 million, I would thing farming would be low on the priority list! AND, if I had $10 million and wanted to farm, I really don't believe I'd use my money even then. Rather spend someone else's.

And last but not least, some borrow money to operate. Some borrow money to buy new toys. Doesn't take long to differentiate between the two.

All that is very true. I'd like to expand a little but I'm not into renting ground and $4k per acre for irrigated land is more than I can justify spending on a hobby. There's definitely not many farmers that drive older trucks like us, I guess most are rich and are just crying poor mouth.

I own some ground. And I rent some ground. And have mixed feelings about renting. I will probably continue to rent a little longer but not forever. I don't have any idea how many years I have on this earth. But I do know my time is limited. And whether I have 50 seconds or 50 years left, there's only so much of it that I'm willing to dedicate to working on another mans land.

And I can't afford $4k land for cows either. So that's out!

And I think you're right. Most of the "successful" farmers left, appear to be doing very well and are just poor mouthing. I may be slow, but I ain't blind. I'm close friends with many of them. I'm glad they are doing well. I just get tired of hearing how bad is it and how they can't make any money. Just how much is it that you wanna make? Greed.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I understand your point. But with respect to the farmers..... It's very easy for an operation of 5000 acres to cost $10 million a year to operate. Not many have that kind of money laying around. So even if they wind up with $12 million at the end of the year when they sell the crops, and let's just say hypothetically that they had a $1.5 million profit, which is a 15% return (pretty dang respectable), they still don't have enough money to operate the following year.

The only way to do it would be to grow very slowly and save a lot for many years. And if one saved $10 million, I would thing farming would be low on the priority list! AND, if I had $10 million and wanted to farm, I really don't believe I'd use my money even then. Rather spend someone else's.

And last but not least, some borrow money to operate. Some borrow money to buy new toys. Doesn't take long to differentiate between the two.

All that is very true. I'd like to expand a little but I'm not into renting ground and $4k per acre for irrigated land is more than I can justify spending on a hobby. There's definitely not many farmers that drive older trucks like us, I guess most are rich and are just crying poor mouth.

I own some ground. And I rent some ground. And have mixed feelings about renting. I will probably continue to rent a little longer but not forever. I don't have any idea how many years I have on this earth. But I do know my time is limited. And whether I have 50 seconds or 50 years left, there's only so much of it that I'm willing to dedicate to working on another mans land.

And I can't afford $4k land for cows either. So that's out!

And I think you're right. Most of the "successful" farmers left, appear to be doing very well and are just poor mouthing. I may be slow, but I ain't blind. I'm close friends with many of them. I'm glad they are doing well. I just get tired of hearing how bad is it and how they can't make any money. Just how much is it that you wanna make? Greed.

All work and no play isn't really the way forward. Just remember your not getting any younger, and the kids are getting older. Our main obstacle was waiting so long to have kids. We look like our daughter's grandparents. I tell her you can pick your friends, but your stuck with your parents.

 

[hurleyjd]

If farmers are not allowed to pass their land on in inheritance, the price of land makes if almost impossible for someone to raise cattle and make money if starting from scratch. We live in about the cheapest place in Texas where cattle can graze. You cant pick up unimproved land here for less than 2000 an acre. Our land is paid for and we aren't rich on cattle sales.. SO I cant imagine a person who is paying for 500 acres is going to make much other than land payments off cattle... Who would do it?
So many ranchers in our area have died off and family sold off the land in small plots. That's another problem, no one to pass the farm to that will farm it. Not many left in our area to bale hay, shred, or any kind of maintenance.. so they sell to people who just camp on it.

11,400,000 is the allowed value of an estate to pass without any taxes.

Thanks to trump. If it had gone the other way it would be different. And we aren't guaranteed we'll get a republican in 2020

and we paid $41558 in taxes the rate over the exemption was 77%.. Father died in 2002 and the limit was a $1,500,000 We were over by $200,000 and had to pay $90,000 in taxes. It was divided between Texas and the feds. In 1916 the estate tax was implemented to fund an undeclared war with France and the tax is still with us.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

11,400,000 is the allowed value of an estate to pass without any taxes.

Thanks to trump. If it had gone the other way it would be different. And we aren't guaranteed we'll get a republican in 2020

and we paid $41558 in taxes the rate over the exemption was 77%.. Father died in 2002 and the limit was a $1,500,000 We were over by $200,000 and had to pay $90,000 in taxes. It was divided between Texas and the feds. In 1916 the estate tax was implemented to fund an undeclared war with France and the tax is still with us.

I'm not aware of an undeclared war with France. Can you cite your source?

 

[gizmom]

If you don't think fake meat is a threat, ask the dairy farmers what they thought when mfg. started promoting almond milk.

gizmom

 

[hurleyjd]

Thanks to trump. If it had gone the other way it would be different. And we aren't guaranteed we'll get a republican in 2020

and we paid $41558 in taxes the rate over the exemption was 77%.. Father died in 2002 and the limit was a $1,500,000 We were over by $200,000 and had to pay $90,000 in taxes. It was divided between Texas and the feds. In 1916 the estate tax was implemented to fund an undeclared war with France and the tax is still with us.


not aware of an undeclared war with France. Can you cite your source?

There was more to my message about tax when Mother died but somewhere in the posting i lost it.
From the this source: https://www.heritage.org/taxes/report/estate-taxes-historical-perspective
I picked up the information from another that cited an undeclared war in 1916 looks like the war might have been in the 1700's. 1916 was ww1 and was fought mainly in France. Sorry for the miss information.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[Texasmark]

......................Wouldn't want to eat scavenging animals unless it was the only option

Got any free roaming chickens on your place? I think the pecking order is bovine, hog, clucker! Amazes me how digestive systems in critters function to produce the proteins we consume.

 

[Texasmark]

If you don't think fake meat is a threat, ask the dairy farmers what they thought when mfg. started promoting almond milk.

gizmom

I was on Chemotherapy for a really bad case of Lymphoma in 2013, (been clean since Sept. 2013) and did the Almond Milk for awhile. Great tasting stuff. Couldn't figure how you could get that (and white colored at that) out of an Almond!

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

If you don't think fake meat is a threat, ask the dairy farmers what they thought when mfg. started promoting almond milk.

gizmom

I was on Chemotherapy for a really bad case of Lymphoma in 2013, (been clean since Sept. 2013) and did the Almond Milk for awhile. Great tasting stuff. Couldn't figure how you could get that (and white colored at that) out of an Almond!

Congratulations on being cancer free! Can't answer your almond question.