Why Herefords are Vanishing

[HerefordSire]

I don't think the title of this thread is accurate at all. Herefords arent vanishing from this country in fact there are more people using Hereford bulls than there was even 5 years ago. Profit indexes and epds aren't the reason either. Function, function and more function will get me farther than all the profit indexes and epds in the world will do. They are great tools for the marketers.

There are a lot of cattle out there that are in small herds that don't have great epds or indexes but due to their lack of epds they won't be used as much as they should be. In fact they will do the breed a lot more good than many of these cattle with high epds that have very little actual data collected but they have high epds because the epds are bred into the pedigree. I continue to encourage people who buy seedstock to look into how much actual data is put into developing the epds for that particular animal. How many animals, how many herds, how many contemporary groups and what size of contemporary groups. What percent of the calves born actually have data collected? I recently was looking at a bull with great epds who one breeder had 30 bull calves registered but only collected bw and ww data on 10 of them. How much would that skew the production ratios if they only did this on this sires calves and not the other calves? It many not have been intentional, but even if it wasn't, it could still influence the epds in a positive manner.

Brian

Hi Brian. Glad to see you post!

The most recent year in North and South America, there were 89,554 calves registered. The last year less calves were registered was 29 years ago in 1980. In the same areas, registrations peaked in 1994.

http://www.hereford.org/Acrobat/Perf/F09_Trend.pdf

Herefords are vanishing. While there may be more bulls in use now than five years ago could be true.

I believe the lack of providing ranchers with the best product on the market is why Herefords are vanishing. Why are Herefords not the best product? Because breeders don't follow the guidelines of the scientists and mathematicians while the leaders (Angus) of the market do. It is simple in my view. This board is a good indication of my theory. However, we are not all to blame. Look at our leaders, the AHA, for example. It is as if the AHA wants the breed to vanish because they are upset and crying like a little baby. Well, it is time to bow up and fight back and win. Enough is enough. A man can only take so much beating. The house should be cleaned and the breeders should be re-educated by the new leadership and then the breeders need to follow what the scientists preach.

 

[HerefordSire]

When matched with a less than high fertility, he can increase fertility. Many times the less fertile animals are the ones with high REA which 517 is lacking

I wish you good luck with trying to build a herd with "less than high fertility" cows. (you might need more than all the good luck I can bestowe on you, though :roll: )

Here is another bred by Mr. Grady Sparks. Notice I used the prefix "Mr." for the respect I have for him although I never met him before. Notice the SC of 3.0 which is mostly based upon the pedigree and tops the charts of any Hereford bull registered today. Please provide an opinion related to fertility of this three year old bull and then explain why this bull and the bull prospect have high fertility ratings.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 3&9=505A59

 

[HerefordSire]

I like the scrotal epd. Big ones will make better calves

Jeff

The actual measurement of the SC of the following bull is 49 and has the highest ranking in the breed. The bull prospect in question is also expected to be very fertile. Is there any truth to high fertility ratings? What do the bulls have in common (the bull prospect and the bull below)?

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 2658222223

 

[grannysoo]

This means the breeder topped the charts in the entire North American and South American continents in less than five years. WOW! How did he do it? What did he do different than the masses? Is he more educated than the masses? Does he have more common sense than the masses?

Sounds like this breeder would make an excellent pimp!

 

[HerefordSire]

This means the breeder topped the charts in the entire North American and South American continents in less than five years. WOW! How did he do it? What did he do different than the masses? Is he more educated than the masses? Does he have more common sense than the masses?

Sounds like this breeder would make an excellent pimp!

In my opinion, the breeder is setting a good example and has leadership potential, self-educated, and open minded. I would say this breeder is one of the ones to watch in the coming years. Others include Mr. Sparks, Mr. Bennett, and Mr. Shultz and others. It will be very interesting to see what Remitall is doing right now. I understand they are coming back.

 

[KNERSIE]

Herefordsire, you always talk about the rest of us lesser mongrels (that was intentional, BTW) who are not open minded enough to understand your line of thinking or appreciate your vast knowledge of statistics or your idea of greatness, but you are not open minded enough for me to waste my time with my limited typing skills to try and explain why trying to breed fertility into "less than high fertile" cow is a waste of time and money. You simply lack the willingness to see others' point of view or the common sense to work it out for yourself. I am sure in time you will learn through experience that I am right on this, I hope you can stay long enough in the business to apply this aquired wisdom for the best.

In the meantime, please accept that your ability to search a data base and to misinterpret the information and then post your findings and opinions won't impress me (and a few others, I might add).

If you have a sincere question that you want me to answer, feel free to ask and I'll try and help to the best of my ability, for the rest you can ignore my posts and in return I'll do the same for you.

 

[smnherf]

I don't think the title of this thread is accurate at all. Herefords arent vanishing from this country in fact there are more people using Hereford bulls than there was even 5 years ago. Profit indexes and epds aren't the reason either. Function, function and more function will get me farther than all the profit indexes and epds in the world will do. They are great tools for the marketers.

There are a lot of cattle out there that are in small herds that don't have great epds or indexes but due to their lack of epds they won't be used as much as they should be. In fact they will do the breed a lot more good than many of these cattle with high epds that have very little actual data collected but they have high epds because the epds are bred into the pedigree. I continue to encourage people who buy seedstock to look into how much actual data is put into developing the epds for that particular animal. How many animals, how many herds, how many contemporary groups and what size of contemporary groups. What percent of the calves born actually have data collected? I recently was looking at a bull with great epds who one breeder had 30 bull calves registered but only collected bw and ww data on 10 of them. How much would that skew the production ratios if they only did this on this sires calves and not the other calves? It many not have been intentional, but even if it wasn't, it could still influence the epds in a positive manner.

Brian

Hi Brian. Glad to see you post!

The most recent year in North and South America, there were 89,554 calves registered. The last year less calves were registered was 29 years ago in 1980. In the same areas, registrations peaked in 1994.

http://www.hereford.org/Acrobat/Perf/F09_Trend.pdf

Herefords are vanishing. While there may be more bulls in use now than five years ago could be true.

I believe the lack of providing ranchers with the best product on the market is why Herefords are vanishing. Why are Herefords not the best product? Because breeders don't follow the guidelines of the scientists and mathematicians while the leaders (Angus) of the market do. It is simple in my view. This board is a good indication of my theory. However, we are not all to blame. Look at our leaders, the AHA, for example. It is as if the AHA wants the breed to vanish because they are upset and crying like a little baby. Well, it is time to bow up and fight back and win. Enough is enough. A man can only take so much beating. The house should be cleaned and the breeders should be re-educated by the new leadership and then the breeders need to follow what the scientists preach.

It seems like I don't have a lot of spare time to post, but it is nice to know some appreciate it once in a while FWIW.

I will agree, the lack of providing ranchers with the best product on the market is the reason why Herefords popularity decreased. But there is where my agreement ends. My definition of a quality product does not depend upon having the highest epd trait in the breed. Too many problems are usually attached when you are constantly breeding extremes. These problems typically arnt found out about until later after the breeders usually have made their buck. The commercial guy ultimately gets stuck with these problems. I feel my job as a purebred breeder is to cull these problems out.

What makes you so sure you assumption that the popularity of the Hereford breed is strictly tied to the breeders not following the scientists and mathemeticians? 85% of the registered females are enrolled in the TPR program. Thats pretty good percentage to me. Herefords have whole herd reporting rules, Angus don't. I don't beleive that the lack of epds and index use has led to Herefords declining registration #'s. Just ask commercial cattleman what their reasons where for not using Hereford bulls, or why they quit them years ago. I don't think dollar indexes and lack of epds have been the leading factor at all. I bet convenience traits and a market for their cattle had a much bigger influence.

How familiar with the profit indezes are you? Do youy know numbers actually go into them? Do they always assume that the higher the individual epd is, the higher the profit index will be without considering the point of diminishing returns that many of the individual epd traits have on profitability?

As far as the AHA goes, the members get the leadership they vote for or don't vote for. I think many people expect too much from their association just like they expect to much from their federal gov't.

Brian

 

[HerefordSire]

Herefordsire, you always talk about the rest of us lesser mongrels (that was intentional, BTW) who are not open minded enough to understand your line of thinking or appreciate your vast knowledge of statistics or your idea of greatness, but you are not open minded enough for me to waste my time with my limited typing skills to try and explain why trying to breed fertility into "less than high fertile" cow is a waste of time and money. You simply lack the willingness to see others' point of view or the common sense to work it out for yourself. I am sure in time you will learn through experience that I am right on this, I hope you can stay long enough in the business to apply this aquired wisdom for the best.

In the meantime, please accept that your ability to search a data base and to misinterpret the information and then post your findings and opinions won't impress me (and a few others, I might add).

If you have a sincere question that you want me to answer, feel free to ask and I'll try and help to the best of my ability, for the rest you can ignore my posts and in return I'll do the same for you.

You can misinterpret my heart all you want. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it true. It is what it is.

It reminds me how several here on this board pounded TheHerefordGuy, or one of his many screen names, like he wasn't human. The board was superior than he was. He was the mongrel. Many here made fun of him over and over again. I saw deeper into his heart and mind. I even went as far providing him comfort. He brought alot to the table even though sometimes he got caught in deceptions. I miss the guy and his threads. It is just one of those things about life. There is a different viewpoint about something, maybe even radical, and just because the majority don't agree, it becomes pound time. No one that I know saw value in his words. I can gurantee you, I read every word he posted on here and there is no one else here I have read every word of.

 

[JHH]

I don't think the title of this thread is accurate at all. Herefords arent vanishing from this country in fact there are more people using Hereford bulls than there was even 5 years ago. Profit indexes and epds aren't the reason either. Function, function and more function will get me farther than all the profit indexes and epds in the world will do. They are great tools for the marketers.

There are a lot of cattle out there that are in small herds that don't have great epds or indexes but due to their lack of epds they won't be used as much as they should be. In fact they will do the breed a lot more good than many of these cattle with high epds that have very little actual data collected but they have high epds because the epds are bred into the pedigree. I continue to encourage people who buy seedstock to look into how much actual data is put into developing the epds for that particular animal. How many animals, how many herds, how many contemporary groups and what size of contemporary groups. What percent of the calves born actually have data collected? I recently was looking at a bull with great epds who one breeder had 30 bull calves registered but only collected bw and ww data on 10 of them. How much would that skew the production ratios if they only did this on this sires calves and not the other calves? It many not have been intentional, but even if it wasn't, it could still influence the epds in a positive manner.

Brian

Hi Brian. Glad to see you post!

The most recent year in North and South America, there were 89,554 calves registered. The last year less calves were registered was 29 years ago in 1980. In the same areas, registrations peaked in 1994.

http://www.hereford.org/Acrobat/Perf/F09_Trend.pdf

Herefords are vanishing. While there may be more bulls in use now than five years ago could be true.

I believe the lack of providing ranchers with the best product on the market is why Herefords are vanishing. Why are Herefords not the best product? Because breeders don't follow the guidelines of the scientists and mathematicians while the leaders (Angus) of the market do. It is simple in my view. This board is a good indication of my theory. However, we are not all to blame. Look at our leaders, the AHA, for example. It is as if the AHA wants the breed to vanish because they are upset and crying like a little baby. Well, it is time to bow up and fight back and win. Enough is enough. A man can only take so much beating. The house should be cleaned and the breeders should be re-educated by the new leadership and then the breeders need to follow what the scientists preach.

It seems like I don't have a lot of spare time to post, but it is nice to know some appreciate it once in a while FWIW.

I will agree, the lack of providing ranchers with the best product on the market is the reason why Herefords popularity decreased. But there is where my agreement ends. My definition of a quality product does not depend upon having the highest epd trait in the breed. Too many problems are usually attached when you constantly breeding extremes not to be found out until later after the breeders usually have made their buck.

What makes you so sure you assumption that the popularity of the Hereford breed is strictly tied to the breeders not following the scientists and mathemeticians? 85% of the registered females are enrolled in the TPR program. Thats pretty good percentage to me. Herefords have whole herd reporting rules, Angus don't. I don't beleive that the lack of epds and index use has led to Herefords declining registration #'s. Just ask commercial cattleman what their reasons where for not using Hereford bulls, or why they quit them years ago. I don't think dollar indexes and lack of epds have been the leading factor at all. I bet convenience traits and a market for their cattle had a much bigger influence.

How familiar with the profit indezes are you? Do youy know numbers actually go into them? Do they always assume that the higher the individual epd is, the higher the profit index will be without considering the point of diminishing returns that many of the individual epd traits have on profitability?

As far as the AHA goes, the members get the leadership they vote for or don't vote for. I think many people expect too much from their association just like they expect to much from their federal gov't.

Brian

They are still scared of pulling calves and no milk. That is the reason I get at the coffe shop. I have at least 5 breeders next to me that insist on using all angus in a commercial operation. Ithink they would benifit from a hereford bull but you cant talk them into one EVEN IF IT WERE POLLED.They are leaving money on the table in my opionion.

The bull talked about here is a try and see thing. H.S. You buy him and breed him then tell us how it worked out in two years. JHH

 

[JHH]

Whitefacespay ( seems familiar to me ) ?

 

[smnherf]

Better yet, give it 5 years after his daughters have weaned their 2nd calf. Then you wil know what you have. He may be the best bull in the world, but until he is proven to be, then I will wait.

Brian

 

[redfornow]

Herefordsire, you always talk about the rest of us lesser mongrels (that was intentional, BTW) who are not open minded enough to understand your line of thinking or appreciate your vast knowledge of statistics or your idea of greatness, but you are not open minded enough for me to waste my time with my limited typing skills to try and explain why trying to breed fertility into "less than high fertile" cow is a waste of time and money. You simply lack the willingness to see others' point of view or the common sense to work it out for yourself. I am sure in time you will learn through experience that I am right on this, I hope you can stay long enough in the business to apply this aquired wisdom for the best.

In the meantime, please accept that your ability to search a data base and to misinterpret the information and then post your findings and opinions won't impress me (and a few others, I might add).

If you have a sincere question that you want me to answer, feel free to ask and I'll try and help to the best of my ability, for the rest you can ignore my posts and in return I'll do the same for you.

You can misinterpret my heart all you want. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it true. It is what it is.
And the same can be returned, just cause the numbers say it and an you pound it dont make it true? Thats why I have asked over and over to see pictures of your cattle... Anyone! Anyone! That has raised a dozen calves in a year KNOWS that the genetics just dont turn out like you would think.... Heck I have a group of full brothers and sisters. All the same age all embro calves. By your take? They would all be identical...
Well? It isnt close? But their numbers are all the same? An will be till I turn in their information....

It reminds me how several here on this board pounded TheHerefordGuy , or one of his many screen names, like he wasn't human. Yes human but a liar The board was superior than he was. He didnt tell the truth He was the mongrel. A liar Many here made fun of him over and over again. For not telling truth I saw deeper into his heart and mind. Do you really believe that was his heart or was it just another story? I even went as far providing him comfort. He brought alot to the table even though sometimes he got caught in deceptions. Really? Who knew? I miss the guy and his threads. Why? It is just one of those things about life. There is a different viewpoint about something, maybe even radical, Maybe even a lie? and just because the majority don't agree, it becomes pound time. Or if you get caught not tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Or if you have a truely stupid idea? Yep you will get pounded...No one that I know saw value in his words. In the lies? Value in deceptions? Really? I can gurantee you, I read every word he posted on here and there is no one else here I have read every word of. Sad, is all I can say about that

So I ask again? Show us some pictures of these number cattle you are raising or quit your moaning....

My cattle arnt the best they are what they are.. But I have posted pictures. So have Harley and George and many others?
But you expect us to care on a talk about things a breeder that has his first calves on the ground know better about?
Its a waste of time? The Truth is.... Yeah like that will ever come out.

I am with Harley on this one? Done.

 

[Brandonm22]

They are still scared of pulling calves and no milk. That is the reason I get at the coffe shop. I have at least 5 breeders next to me that insist on using all angus in a commercial operation. Ithink they would benifit from a hereford bull but you cant talk them into one EVEN IF IT WERE POLLED.They are leaving money on the table in my opionion.

Hereford breeders shot themselves in the foot with the big birth weights. People chased and multiplied lines of cattle that were waaaayyyy too extreme in that trait. As for milk, if Angus keeps pushing the bar on THAT EPD, they will be shooting themselves in the foot. Those big dairy udders hurt the Simmental breed when they were at their pinnacle and it will do the same thing with Angus if too many folks pile on at the upper extreme of the breed. Milk is not very efficient biologically and it comes at a great cost physically on the cow. Push it too hard and it will hurt cow longevity and fertility......two traits that matter a whole lot more too bottomline profitability than another 10 pounds of gain per calf from milk. If Angus wants to go off that cliff, Hereford doesn't need to chase them.

 

[RD-Sam]

Yep, they are all chasing milk and growth in the angus breed right now, and headed for a disaster. They think if a little is good, alot must be better. :lol2: Lets not forget all the high priced dues, semen, certificates, ect. that hurt the Hereford breed. Of course the AAA is headed off that cliff now too. :roll:

 

[HerefordSire]

It seems like I don't have a lot of spare time to post, but it is nice to know some appreciate it once in a while FWIW.

Brian...it is refreshing to read your words. I can tell you right off, the questions you are asking are good ones. I wish I had the answers. I could be throwing some things against the wall to see what sticks. By not throwing anything against the wall, many questions go unanswered. I am not sure about alot of things in cattle breeding and markets. I do know the direction Herefords are heading is not the winning direction. While I am new, maybe I can motivate someone like you to take action to reverse our course.

I will agree, the lack of providing ranchers with the best product on the market is the reason why Herefords popularity decreased. But there is where my agreement ends. My definition of a quality product does not depend upon having the highest epd trait in the breed. Too many problems are usually attached when you are constantly breeding extremes. These problems typically arnt found out about until later after the breeders usually have made their buck. The commercial guy ultimately gets stuck with these problems. I feel my job as a purebred breeder is to cull these problems out.

What makes you so sure you assumption that the popularity of the Hereford breed is strictly tied to the breeders not following the scientists and mathemeticians? 85% of the registered females are enrolled in the TPR program. Thats pretty good percentage to me. Herefords have whole herd reporting rules, Angus don't. I don't beleive that the lack of epds and index use has led to Herefords declining registration #'s. Just ask commercial cattleman what their reasons where for not using Hereford bulls, or why they quit them years ago. I don't think dollar indexes and lack of epds have been the leading factor at all. I bet convenience traits and a market for their cattle had a much bigger influence.

High EPD numbers are not what I am encouraging. I encourage performance increases in all categories. EPD numbers are just 15 categories that are currently measured that were created by scientists. As a team, if we were breeding as a potion of a whole, we can increase performance at a faster rate.

For example, take eye pigment. Where are the ratings for these traits? There are none to my knowledge. Yet, what percentage of the population has eye pigment? We don't know! Why don't we know? Is it not important? If we work as a group, create product by competing against each other's quality, we can keep improving and improving fast. As you know, how can I create better eye pigment than you if I don't know your herd's eye pigment percentages? So, the leadership is lacking for not having a competitve eye pigment scenario.

Similarly, high or low EPD numbers are not important as much as the increase or decrease in the probabilities which is reflected in the beginning EPD numbers and the always changing interim numbers. If the median EPD numbers for all 15 categories are increasing, but not increasing fast enough, then Herefords will continue to lose market share. This does assume other breeds, including Angus, are also making improvmeents at a rate faster than us. While 85% of Whole Herd Reporting breeders sounds healthy, how many of these breeders really believe in EPD numbers? Not many, if this board is any indication. They may say they breed by probabilities and they may be a member in good standing, but what are the percentage improvements? Whatever they are, we are not improving fast enough.

How familiar with the profit indezes are you? Do youy know numbers actually go into them? Do they always assume that the higher the individual epd is, the higher the profit index will be without considering the point of diminishing returns that many of the individual epd traits have on profitability?

I have a good understanding of numbers in general, especially velocities and change in velocities. I do not know what the exact profit formulas are though. I have looked and cannot locate them. I would appreciate you sending me a copy if available. In answering your question, I would guess no, that the forumlas for profit indices do not always move in the same manner as EPD core numbers and there is a saturation point taken into consideration which could make it move differently.

As far as the AHA goes, the members get the leadership they vote for or don't vote for. I think many people expect too much from their association just like they expect to much from their federal gov't.

Brian

I think this should be changed. One member should be one vote. This should correct many of the issues you members are facing. I am thinking one man can turn the AHA around with the help of the majority of the members. As always, it is a pleasure reading your posts!

 

[grannysoo]

Brian...it is refreshing to read your words. I can tell you right off, the questions you are asking are good ones. I wish I had the answers. I could be throwing some things against the wall to see what sticks. By not throwing anything against the wall, many questions go unanswered.

:mrgreen: HerefordSire, you know you wouldn't be throwing out anything to see if it sticks!

Some may not read what you post, some may read parts of it, some may read it all. It's just a matter of how much time you have and how much you want to explore possibilities. A very curious mind indeed...

 

[HerefordSire]

They are still scared of pulling calves and no milk. That is the reason I get at the coffe shop. I have at least 5 breeders next to me that insist on using all angus in a commercial operation. Ithink they would benifit from a hereford bull but you cant talk them into one EVEN IF IT WERE POLLED.They are leaving money on the table in my opionion.

The bull talked about here is a try and see thing. H.S. You buy him and breed him then tell us how it worked out in two years. JHH

JHH...very interesting about your coffee shop experiences. I can help you on the old geezers if you ever want to sell them. Just let me know, and I will show you a trick or two. But, you better have good product or it will backfire. I figure you have once chance. For now, pick one of the five men and be thinking about him.

Even if the bull prospect doesn't perform to the breeder's criteria, he appears to have figured out a pedigree combination that topped the $BMI charts. What is exciting, is the breeder probably has the same cow. I am not as conservative as Brian probably because of my lack of experience, but I will give many animals a chance if they could be 100% purchased. This specific prospect appears to be one of those that could be either not for sale or one that will be partially sold.

 

[cmf1]

HS,
I'm a pup in this cow calf business and didn't really put that many years into stockers before I decided I wanted to chase the perfect beast.
But what I like about your posts is that you continually throw 2+2 against the wall trying to get 5.
Academia has it's uses, but more often than not, these days they are all about achieving consensus, and grants.
And then looking down their "more knowledgeable than thou through numbers noses" at people who actually apply science and practice to reality.
Paper can no way breed cattle, milk cattle, butcher it, or taste it.
It can support what practice has taught you. It can make you look harder at something you may not have considered.
I would rather have a veteran practicing cattleman help me choose stock than a guy that could recite every bloodline and epd value known to mankind off the top of his head, that didn't actually raise cattle. Scientific knowledge is to be tempered with practical usage or it is useless.
Now if I could bring them both with me to hunt stock, I'd be one lucky dog. :nod: :nod: :nod:

I'm a nonconformist, and an eternal optimist, and I love to consider the possibilities. And I appreciate the way you extrapolate numbers to arrive at conclusions that will be perfect on paper.
But one of the expressions I hear to often with dread is;
"Dang it, It worked on paper".
At the same time, a different perspective is entertaining and sometimes thought provoking.
And I'm guessing you do more thinking than doing, cattlewise, and provoking thought is your main thrust.
No offense whatsoever intended, and I respect your ability to stir a pot. ;-)

 

[HerefordSire]

redfornow...Thanks for letting some steam loose. The format you chose to interact is a little unorthadox, so I will try to reply the best I can.

And the same can be returned, just cause the numbers say it and an you pound it dont make it true? Thats why I have asked over and over to see pictures of your cattle... Anyone! Anyone! That has raised a dozen calves in a year KNOWS that the genetics just dont turn out like you would think.... Heck I have a group of full brothers and sisters. All the same age all embro calves. By your take? They would all be identical...Well? It isnt close? But their numbers are all the same? An will be till I turn in their information....

I think you are addressing a couple of issues above. One is several subtopics concerning breeding based upon strictly numbers and the other is not showing cattle photos. First off, I never have bred any cattle without deep research. Most of my research entails reading. Photos are deceiving and cannot be relied upon. Videos are better, but are still lacking. Visually inspecting cattle can cost money. One thing I noticed about cattle genetics, is it is difficult to acquire proven scientific information. I figure this was because cattle breeding just is not that important to people providing grants and research money. Most of what I can tell, some important breeding information is exchanged from breeder to breeder and if you don't ask a breeder, you won't have the information because the information is not public. There is public information so this helps drasticly. Your comments about how I breed cattle is inaccurate and unfounded. Secondly, providing photos of inferior products does not fit my criteria and strategy. I have the opinion that showing weakness will affect the speed of my future success. As soon as I have a good product that I think is high quality attributed to my breeding ability, and I am ready to advance to the next level, I will show you and RD-Sam what I have been working on. Fair enough?

These following comments are taking out of context. If you need to refer how they were used, please look for the previous post. If you haven't figured it out yet, I am being courteous to you.

Yes human but a liar
He didnt tell the truth
For not telling truth
Do you really believe that was his heart or was it just another story?
Really? Who knew?
Why?
Maybe even a lie?
Or if you get caught not tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Or if you have a truely stupid idea? Yep you will get pounded
Value in deceptions? Really?
Sad, is all I can say about that

Why do you think it is OK to pound a liar (or a non-liar for that matter) when we are all liars at times in our life? I would appreciate it if you treat me like the gentleman that I am and show others respect, even if they lied to you. OK?

So I ask again? Show us some pictures of these number cattle you are raising or quit your moaning....

My cattle arnt the best they are what they are.. But I have posted pictures. So have Harley and George and many others?
But you expect us to care on a talk about things a breeder that has his first calves on the ground know better about?
Its a waste of time? The Truth is.... Yeah like that will ever come out.

I am with Harley on this one? Done.

First off, no one is moaning. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

See previous reply above about photos.

I am not sure I am following you on the rest, but I think it has to do with not breeding animals for that long (inexperienced) so why should anyone pay attention to anything I write and waste theiir time. About all I can in response to that is...maybe you like to be a winner?


Now then, lets talk cattle.

 

[Herefords.US]

HS,
I'm a pup in this cow calf business and didn't really put that many years into stockers before I decided I wanted to chase the perfect beast.
But what I like about your posts is that you continually throw 2+2 against the wall trying to get 5.
Academia has it's uses, but more often than not, these days they are all about achieving consensus, and grants.
And then looking down their "more knowledgeable than thou through numbers noses" at people who actually apply science and practice to reality.
Paper can no way breed cattle, milk cattle, butcher it, or taste it.
It can support what practice has taught you. It can make you look harder at something you may not have considered.
I would rather have a veteran practicing cattleman help me choose stock than a guy that could recite every bloodline and epd value known to mankind off the top of his head, that didn't actually raise cattle. Scientific knowledge is to be tempered with practical usage or it is useless.
Now if I could bring them both with me to hunt stock, I'd be one lucky dog. :nod: :nod: :nod:

I'm a nonconformist, and an eternal optimist, and I love to consider the possibilities. And I appreciate the way you extrapolate numbers to arrive at conclusions that will be perfect on paper.
But one of the expressions I hear to often with dread is;
"Dang it, It worked on paper".
At the same time, a different perspective is entertaining and sometimes thought provoking.
And I'm guessing you do more thinking than doing, cattlewise, and provoking thought is your main thrust.
No offense whatsoever intended, and I respect your ability to stir a pot. ;-)

I first realized that there was something "wrong" with selection primarly by EPDs when I attended several dispersion sales a few years back. I had spent hours going over the catalogs picking the cattle with "the best" EPDs, marking them, studying their pedigrees, and preparing my own purchase list. Then when sale time came, I couldn't help but notice that some of the most noteworthy and successful Hereford cattle breeders were totally ignoring the cattle I had marked in my catalog and were bidding on and buying cattle with lesser and sometimes "below average" EPDs instead. After I saw it happen over and over again, I could only come to two possible conclusions. Either these very successful cattlemen had suddenly become totally ignorant in their craft or I still had a whole lot to learn about these so-called "magic" numbers and their importance - or lack thereof. The fallacy of my selection by EPDs was further supported when a number of the cattle that I purchased, with those STELLAR EPDs, were the very first to get sent to auction when actually put into production.

It took me 6 years of studying EPDs in specific cattle, and monitoring the movements in them through the twice yearly EPD adjustments, to finally realize that the most important number in EPDs is their accuracy. I agree with the assessment by Dr. Bob Hough of the Red Angus Assn. that an EPD with an accuracy of less than .4 is unreliable and EPDs only become somewhat trustworthy once that accuracy reaches .6 or more.

And that means that the EPDs of unproven Hereford bulls and virtually all Hereford cows, regardless of age, are unreliable.

But apparently some can just look at a couple of profit indices and declare a bull's "greatness" - even though he hasn't even sired a calf yet.

George