whole herd lost condition

[Miss Daisy]

33 pair, about 10 are first calf cows. We are in Central WA. They began calving January 18 and finished in April. Beofre the calving season began, their BCS was around 5-6, the heifers were good solid 6-6.5s. The cows began dropping weight, and the heifers were worse. I mean 300 lbs, skin and bones. At that point they were getting 25lbs of DM per day. It was chopped, 50% alfalfa 50% oat hay. We upped them a little at a time, by the end of the winter they were getting 40 lbs each. They quit losing weight at this point, but were not gaining any back. They were turned out to summer pasture on May 20. It has enough TDN but the minerals are a bit low, the winter hay was a better test. They are just now finally slicking off their winter coats. They are black angus and had that red hair going on. Most of them have picked up some weight, they are in the 4.5 range. Some better, some worse. The calves have done nothing. They are five months old and weigh 200-250 llbs. The herd is happy and have great attitudes, ears are up. They are not stressed in any way, other than it was a cold and rainy spring. There was a small bout of milk scours that came through but it took care of itself.

The hay tested perfect. At 25 lbs, they were getting all the protein and nutrients needed. Nitrates are nonexistent. They have free access to Purina Wind and Rain 12 and white loose salt. They are UTD on 8-way and Cattlemaster. They get pink eye vaccines. They are wormed with Ivomec Plus in the fall and spring. There have been no outside sale barn cows introduced into the herd in 6 years. We bought a couple at a registered sale (only 2 miles away) and they came with all the health paperwork and records and were quarantined for 30 days. All temps are normal in cows and calves.

They were getting proper feed and mineral and fresh running water. We have had two vets out, three nutritionists, and every cattleman around. Nobody knows. And its not one or two cows, it was the whole herd. We contacted the extension office and they are putting the head of veterinary at WSU in touch. We have eliminated most of the obvious causes. One thing to mention is that last years calf crop was left on longer than they should have been so the cows didn't have as much chance to recover as they normally do. There were no open cows either, and we haven't lost any calves.

All the neighors cows look great, nice and fat and shiny and slicked off... 500 lb calves. Breeds include Angus, Charlais, and black baldies.

Current plan of action is to drench with safeguard. We did just switch to a better mineral with chelated minerals and selenium that is more available. We are setting up to collect stool and blood samples.

The calf crop is pretty much ruined as far as I can see. My main focus is getting condition back on the cows. The bull was turned in April 20. He will be pulled out this week and I'm thinking there will be quite a few open cows. At this point, its anyones guess.

Thats what I can think of off the top of my head. Ask any questions you may have. I can email the feed analysis to anyone interested. I do not have pictures.

 

[jkwilson]

What's your water source?

 

[Miss Daisy]

What's your water source?

In the winter, its a spring. Its always running and it doesn't pool so they are not drinking water that they have stood in.

In the summer, the drink out of the canal. We are at the top so no wastewater spills into it before the cows drink. It comes straight from the melting snow in the Cascades.

We don't have access to the srping in the summer, but we will be testing the water from it once the canal dries off this fall.

 

[dun]

Any old mines or logging sites above you that may contaminate the water, either the spring or the runoff? Any junky areas in the pasture like old dump sites or anything?

 

[upfrombottom]

Does the spring water have a sulfer smell?

 

[Miss Daisy]

Any old mines or logging sites above you that may contaminate the water, either the spring or the runoff? Any junky areas in the pasture like old dump sites or anything?

No, there are abstracts of the ranch dating back 300 years ago and the spring is mentioned. If these are correct, it originates up in the sagebrush and come directly to where the cows drink. There are no other cattle pastured above it/on top of it, its just empty sagebrush. Cattle have been on this pasture on and off for the last 85 years that I know of for sure. The pasture is completely clean. There are a couple terragator tire for them to rub on.

 

[Miss Daisy]

Does the spring water have a sulfer smell?

No it does not, at our end anyway.

 

[randiliana]

Has your water been tested?

 

[upfrombottom]

This is why I asked about the sulfur. Ground water sometimes contain high concentrations of sulfur and iron. This was taken from our extention service website.

Sulfur. Sulfur is a component of several amino acids that are the building blocks of protein. Sulfur, other than that fed in the form of protein, is usually needed only when diets contain substantial amounts of nonprotein nitrogen (NPN). In these situations, the ratio of nitrogen to sulfur should be maintained between 10:1 and 15:1. High sulfur levels can interact with copper and molybdenum, which can result in a copper deficiency. Corn by-product feeds can be very high in sulfur. A neurological disorder (polioencephalomalacia) may result when cattle consume excessive quantities of these feeds, especially in the presence of other sources of sulfur such as water.

Copper. Copper comprises an essential part of many different enzymes in the body. Copper is important for adequate growth, reproduction and immunity. Some breeds have been shown to be more prone to copper deficiencies. Unlike zinc, copper is stored tenaciously in the liver, and levels build up rapidly when animals are fed high levels of copper. Copper is extremely toxic to sheep, so many supplements sold to cattle producers contain little copper, primarily to prevent liability of the supplement manufacturer in case the product is fed to sheep. Cattle producers should avoid using a low copper mineral unless complimentary grazing programs with sheep are being used. Copper oxide should be avoided as a copper source because of its poor bioavailability, which will affect the level of copper required in supplements. High levels of molybdenum, sulfur, iron or zinc in the diet interfere with normal copper absorption and metabolism.

 

[Miss Daisy]

Has your water been tested?

No it has not. As per my post, we do not have access until the fall after the canal dries up, otherwise, its mixed.



I did know about the moly and sulfur tying up copper. We use a mineral with chelated copper, so its very available. They are eating it at the proper level.

Cattle have been run on this ground for many years. Can a water problem like this all of a suddenly appear?

 

[upfrombottom]

I should have added this also.

Mineral content of water. Water may supply beneficial or detrimental levels of minerals such as sodium, chlorine, sulfur and iron. Some indicators include a salty taste for salt (sodium chloride), rust for iron and a bad taste or rotten egg smell for sulfur. However, water can contain significant levels of sulfur and not give off rotten egg odor. If performance problems exist in the cattle and you're not sure about the quality of water, have the water analyzed.

You stated that you had a very wet, rainy Spring, so yes the problems could show up all of a sudden, and then dissipate. We had to quit using a well that had been in constant use for twenty years because of the sudden change in the iron and sulfur levels in the water.

 

[Miss Daisy]

I should have added this also.

Mineral content of water. Water may supply beneficial or detrimental levels of minerals such as sodium, chlorine, sulfur and iron. Some indicators include a salty taste for salt (sodium chloride), rust for iron and a bad taste or rotten egg smell for sulfur. However, water can contain significant levels of sulfur and not give off rotten egg odor. If performance problems exist in the cattle and you're not sure about the quality of water, have the water analyzed.

You stated that you had a very wet, rainy Spring, so yes the problems could show up all of a sudden, and then dissipate. We had to quit using a well that had been in constant use for twenty years because of the sudden change in the iron and sulfur levels in the water.

This is definitely something to pay attention to. Are you saying the rain may have leached the minerals into the water? If that is the case, will they still be around for testing this fall or will they be flushed?

The vet has confirmed and will be coming out this week for stool and blood sample day. She conveniently has interns that need to learn this so they volunteered without charge.

I am seriously disappointed with the extension agent. He will no return phone calls AT ALL. We left several messages with the secretary over the last two weeks and he finally sent a TEXT MESSAGE saying WSU would contact us. That was a week ago. No call from WSU yet. Are they all morons or did I just get lucky?

 

[dun]

Not only iron etc, any heavy metals can be leached out of the soil. We had a problem with arsenic blowing in as dust from a dry lake bed. If nothing obvious pops up you starting looking for the obscure. Like fertilizers, weeds, new plants, soemthing in the soil, etc.

 

[Miss Daisy]

Not only iron etc, any heavy metals can be leached out of the soil. We had a problem with arsenic blowing in as dust from a dry lake bed. If nothing obvious pops up you starting looking for the obscure. Like fertilizers, weeds, new plants, soemthing in the soil, etc.

We are grasping at straws at this point and will consider anything. How long will symptoms last after the source has been removed?

 

[dun]

Not only iron etc, any heavy metals can be leached out of the soil. We had a problem with arsenic blowing in as dust from a dry lake bed. If nothing obvious pops up you starting looking for the obscure. Like fertilizers, weeds, new plants, soemthing in the soil, etc.

We are grasping at straws at this point and will consider anything. How long will symptoms last after the source has been removed?

Depends on what the cause/source was/is.

 

[Miss Daisy]

we did stool and blood samples last night. we will test blood for selenium, copper, iron, sulfur, zinc, and magnesium. stool will be tested for various parasites and just a general culture. 3 animals will be tested for johnes.

 

[Suzie Q]

It sounds like you are doing everything you can.

My question is - when you feed out do they look at you and stay sitting down chewing their cud?

Or do they fight each other for the feed? Mine do the first.

 

[Miss Daisy]

ItMy question is - when you feed out do they look at you and stay sitting down chewing their cud?

The cows mob the feedwagon, but they follow it all the way to the end, they don't stop to eat right away. They were hungry, but not starving. We overfed the heck out of them, which taught them to munch all day rather than gorging. So they just kind of followed you around and then nibbled a little when you pulled out of the field. They are not being fed hay now, they are only irrigated pasture, which has been tested for content and they are getting enough. Its up to their bellies.

 

[dun]

Its up to their bellies.

Depending on what it is and the stage of maturity they can starve with grass up to their bellys.
I,m not saying this is the case but it's something to think about

 

[Suzie Q]

Our cattle do not come near us when we have grass. No grass at the moment. All dead from frost. We don't feed them when they have grass. They have us pretty well trained. If they come up to the fence we feed them, but the only come to the fence if they are hungry, otherwise they stay down across the creek.

Not like horses who would come to the fence to be fed even if they have enough grass.