Which Breed would you choose?

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4CTophand

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How to Choose your Commercial Crosses Based on Carcass Merit
Characterization of breeds based on their biological type

Very high lean, low marbling, low milk, late puberty

Charolais -- very high growth (represents YG 0 – 1 QG Select) Why you see Char x ang
Chianina -- very high growth (represents YG 0 – 1 QG Select) Why you see Chi x ang
Limousin -- moderate growth (represents YG 0 – 1 QG Select) Why you see Lim x ang
This group needs a lot of help-
What would you use besides Angus?


High lean, moderate marbling, high milk, moderate puberty

Simmental -- very high growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Simm x angus
Maine Anjou -- very high growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Maine x angus
Gelbvieh -- very high growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Gelbv x angus
Brown Swiss -- high growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Br. Sw x________

Moderate lean, moderate marbling, high milk, early puberty

South Devon -- moderate growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) S. Dev x ____
Tarentaise -- moderate growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Tarent x ______
Pinzgauer -- moderate growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Pinz x _______
What would you cross these cattle breeds with to improve carcass merit?


Moderate lean, low marbling, high milk, very late puberty, heat tolerant

Brahman -- high growth (represents YG 0 – 1 QG Select) Why you see Brah x angus or SH or Simm
Sahiwal -- low growth (represents YG 0 – 1 QG Select) Why you don’t see any!
What would you cross these cattle with to improve Carcass Merit?


Low lean, high marbling, moderate milk, moderate puberty

Black Angus -- moderate growth (Represents YG 2-4 QG LMH Choice and Prime)
Angus are used in so many crosses to help other breeds fill in the gaps they lack in carcass merit.
The reason Angus needs to be crossed with another breed is too much YG. When an animal is harvested and there is more than a YG 2 carcass, extra time has to be taken to trim off that excess fat—hence the PB/ Comm. Angus gets penalized.
That’s why cattle buyers want a feeder that is only ½ angus and preferably 3/8’s.

What breed would you choose to cross with an Angus?

Hereford -- moderate growth (Represents YG 1-3 QG LMH Choice and LM Prime)
Seldom does a Hereford feeder, properly fed, grade less than YG2, but with their moderate growth they do need to be crossed with another breed, which promotes Hybrid Vigor.

Which breed would you choose?

Red Poll -- low growth (Represents YG 2-4 QG LMH Choice and L Prime)
Don’t see many of these cattle around due to their low growth potentials.

What would you cross this Breed with to improve Growth?

N. Devon -- low growth (Represents YG 2-4 QG LMH Choice and L Prime)

What would you cross this Breed with to improve Growth?

Very high milk, high marbling, early puberty

Holstein—moderate lean, high growth. Steers in the feed yard have diminished due to sexed semen
Jersey -- low lean, low growth Why you see some people feed Jersey crosses for freezer, but steers in the feed yard have diminished due to sexed semen

Someday when you, as a commercial cattleman/woman, are held responsible for quality pounds instead of just quantity pounds, you will want to make some wise decisions. This is day is approaching.

I am interested in:

What you do now?

What breeds you chose and why?

What you would change in your operations having this information before you?
 

TexasBred

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backhoeboogie":2sdhswuk said:
4CTophand":2sdhswuk said:
What you would change in your operations having this information before you?

That sad thing is you are probably not kidding.

I can't wait to hear what "he" did. But since I'm rather busy I'll just wait til he writes the paper on it and read all about it. :lol2: :lol2:
 

Limomike

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That is quite a bit of reading material... and not a word mentioned about Beefmasters
It is NOT going to have an affect on what I do currently nor what I do in the future. What you do now?
Raise feeder calves. cow /calf operation

What breeds you chose and why?
Mostly Beefmaster and Red Angus cows and a few Herefords ...with a black Limousin bull.
Why? Disposition, great growth factor, calving ease.
What you would change in your operations having this information before you?
Not much.
 
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4CTophand

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TexasBred":2b0vtx8g said:
backhoeboogie":2b0vtx8g said:
4CTophand":2b0vtx8g said:
What you would change in your operations having this information before you?

That sad thing is you are probably not kidding.


That is a quality response from a TAMU graduate --- let me re-phrase that >> A TAMU graduate that squeezed a Bachelor degree out of just 6 years of time spent pursuing a 4 yr degree---wow
 

backhoeboogie

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4CTophand":2nk895k6 said:
That is a quality response from a TAMU graduate --- let me re-phrase that >> A TAMU graduate that squeezed a Bachelor degree out of just 6 years of time spent pursuing a 4 yr degree---wow

I can only assume you don't share the respect I have for others in the forum (with degrees) and years and years or experience. Old men who have been at this their whole lives.

It did not take me 5 minutes to read your post. I have spent hundreds of hours reading. I have spent days with vets and old time cattlemen. I am like a rookie compared to most of the full time cattlemen and women in this forum.

Edit: Okay I'll bite. What about Murray Gray and how they would function in my climate? Not so much the 110 degree heat during the day, but when the lows over night are still in the 80's? You don't even mention Murray Grays.

Now the 65 year old vet friend of mine who runs over 1000 head and has been doctoring animals (he has a doctor's degree) for his whole life, offered some advice on Murrays.

I have only been around cattle for about 40 years. I have only owned cattle for about 20 or so. I have less than 100 head at the moment. I am not about to change what I have been doing based on a two minute read from someone who has probably never raised cattle in the conditions I raise them in.
 

HerefordSire

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Simple question....

Is the objective you are trying to teach, and I am teachable, to increase rancher profit from where ever we are currently in our operation? ...Or maybe to provide exactly what the meat packers want to maximize their spreads
?
 
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4CTophand

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I can only assume you don't share the respect I have for others in the forum (with degrees) and years and years or experience. Old men who have been at this their whole lives.

It did not take me 5 minutes to read your post. I have spent hundreds of hours reading. I have spent days with vets and old time cattlemen. I am like a rookie compared to most of the full time cattlemen and women in this forum.[/quote]

You sound like a young person and that being said; Never assume anything--- Texas Bred always has the kind of response with no meaning--instead of giving a response that is worthless, like his, all I asked for was your opinion-- there is no right or wrong answer to an opinion unless that opinion is like the one Texas Bred felt he needed to share.

I dont want to post to my own post --I just want your opinion .... as far as degrees go -- they are a good thing and they help you teach yourself and when combined with real life experiences (by doing); I believe that makes a person well-rounded. You can bash education if you want to- doesn't bother me at all.
 
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4CTophand

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HerefordSire":3a5ye50f said:
Simple question....

Is the objective you are trying to teach, and I am teachable, to increase rancher profit from where ever we are currently in our operation? ...Or maybe to provide exactly what the meat packers want to maximize their spreads
?

I just want your opinion based on the information, I provided; on cattle breeds and their carcass merits or the lack thereof. I am a production based operation --just like you, but I also run stockers, feed cattle and have a great interest in quality pounds. I want the premiums paid on the rail for Med Choice YG 2-- thats what they (the packers) want and thats what my guidelines are period. I could careless about making the packers rich, but that's just it<<<>>> if you are not providing what the packer wants-- you will lose-- it is just that simple--- It doesn't matter if you dont like it-- these are the facts.
 

HerefordSire

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4CTophand":nb1p0pq8 said:
HerefordSire":nb1p0pq8 said:
Simple question....

Is the objective you are trying to teach, and I am teachable, to increase rancher profit from where ever we are currently in our operation? ...Or maybe to provide exactly what the meat packers want to maximize their spreads
?

I just want your opinion based on the information, I provided; on cattle breeds and their carcass merits or the lack thereof. I am a production based operation --just like you, but I also run stockers, feed cattle and have a great interest in quality pounds. I want the premiums paid on the rail for Med Choice YG 2-- thats what they (the packers) want and thats what my guidelines are period. I could careless about making the packers rich, but that's just it<<<>>> if you are not providing what the packer wants-- you will lose-- it is just that simple--- It doesn't matter if you dont like it-- these are the facts.


What is the packer definition of "Med Choice YG 2"? Do you send your animals through the packer?
 

backhoeboogie

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4CTophand":tqrvmijz said:
I dont want to post to my own post --I just want your opinion .... as far as degrees go -- they are a good thing and they help you teach yourself and when combined with real life experiences (by doing); I believe that makes a person well-rounded. You can bash education if you want to- doesn't bother me at all.

I have an education and I am not bashing education. 49 years old is indeed young :D

Your post starts off with a "how to" statement and not with a "what should I do" question.

Now if you can share your wisdom of properly planting 15 acres of corn with a 4 row planter in 50 minutes, this whole forum will probably be all ears :D
 
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4CTophand

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I have an education and I am not bashing education. 49 years old is indeed young :D

Your post starts off with a "how to" statement and not with a "what should I do" question.

You are beginning to sound like TB. yeah you are a youngster.--- The "How to" was there to get your to think about what you---not me-- are doing...

The "What are YOU doing was the question. Now based on the information questions you may not have any answer because you may not have a firm grasp on how to answer the question ---that's ok-- just answer what you can. Just because you don't understand a question doesn't mean it was a bad question. Trust me, you are nt the only 49 yr old that doesn't savvy the information.

I look forward to some real answers from you-- rather than BS.

And as far as the corn planting goes--- if it is just a deer field --who cares? And it depends on your soil --if it is sandy bottom land in Alabama you han move right on-- if it a clay hill in Alabama-- yes you may have to slow down --ALOT..And I'm sorry if it takes you a half a day to hook up your planter--again not my problem. Of course we forget and assume no one in their right mind would be out there disking the hill side up and down, but you never know.
 

RD-Sam

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Angus
Herf
Angus
Herf
Angus
Herf
Angus
Herf
:mrgreen:
 

novatech

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4CTophand":1b4licm3 said:
How to Choose your Commercial Crosses Based on Carcass Merit
Characterization of breeds based on their biological type

Very high lean, low marbling, low milk, late puberty

Charolais -- very high growth (represents YG 0 – 1 QG Select) Why you see Char x ang
Chianina -- very high growth (represents YG 0 – 1 QG Select) Why you see Chi x ang
Limousin -- moderate growth (represents YG 0 – 1 QG Select) Why you see Lim x ang
This group needs a lot of help-
What would you use besides Angus?


High lean, moderate marbling, high milk, moderate puberty

Simmental -- very high growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Simm x angus
Maine Anjou -- very high growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Maine x angus
Gelbvieh -- very high growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Gelbv x angus
Brown Swiss -- high growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Br. Sw x________

Moderate lean, moderate marbling, high milk, early puberty

South Devon -- moderate growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) S. Dev x ____
Tarentaise -- moderate growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Tarent x ______
Pinzgauer -- moderate growth (represents YG 1 – 2 QG LMH Choice) Pinz x _______
What would you cross these cattle breeds with to improve carcass merit?


Moderate lean, low marbling, high milk, very late puberty, heat tolerant

Brahman -- high growth (represents YG 0 – 1 QG Select) Why you see Brah x angus or SH or Simm
Sahiwal -- low growth (represents YG 0 – 1 QG Select) Why you don’t see any!
What would you cross these cattle with to improve Carcass Merit?


Low lean, high marbling, moderate milk, moderate puberty

Black Angus -- moderate growth (Represents YG 2-4 QG LMH Choice and Prime)
Angus are used in so many crosses to help other breeds fill in the gaps they lack in carcass merit.
The reason Angus needs to be crossed with another breed is too much YG. When an animal is harvested and there is more than a YG 2 carcass, extra time has to be taken to trim off that excess fat—hence the PB/ Comm. Angus gets penalized.
That’s why cattle buyers want a feeder that is only ½ angus and preferably 3/8’s.

What breed would you choose to cross with an Angus?

Hereford -- moderate growth (Represents YG 1-3 QG LMH Choice and LM Prime)
Seldom does a Hereford feeder, properly fed, grade less than YG2, but with their moderate growth they do need to be crossed with another breed, which promotes Hybrid Vigor.

Which breed would you choose?

Red Poll -- low growth (Represents YG 2-4 QG LMH Choice and L Prime)
Don’t see many of these cattle around due to their low growth potentials.

What would you cross this Breed with to improve Growth?

N. Devon -- low growth (Represents YG 2-4 QG LMH Choice and L Prime)

What would you cross this Breed with to improve Growth?

Very high milk, high marbling, early puberty

Holstein—moderate lean, high growth. Steers in the feed yard have diminished due to sexed semen
Jersey -- low lean, low growth Why you see some people feed Jersey crosses for freezer, but steers in the feed yard have diminished due to sexed semen

Someday when you, as a commercial cattleman/woman, are held responsible for quality pounds instead of just quantity pounds, you will want to make some wise decisions. This is day is approaching.

I am interested in:

What you do now?

What breeds you chose and why?

What you would change in your operations having this information before you?
I would be very interested in knowing where these statistics came from since I am not aware of a YG score of 0.
Table 9. Expected yields of closely
trimmed boneless retail cuts
(%CTBRC) for each USDA yield grade.
Yield Grade %CTBRC
---------------------------
1 >52.3%
2 50.0 to 52.3%
3 47.7 to 50.0%
4 45.4 to 47.7%
5 <45.4%
---------------------------


The yield grade of a beef carcass is determined by evaluating the following factors: (1) external fat thickness over the ribeye area, (2) ribeye area, (3) estimating percentage of kidney, pelvic and heart fat (% KPH), and (4) hot carcass weight.
Quoted from http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/ ... etermining
I cannot see a yeid grade 0 anywhere.
I also beleive this is what is taught at TAMU not arougance.
Many commercial breeders breed for the F1 to produce the terminal. Most of the F1's in my area are for this purpose and not used as terminals.
 

Brandonm22

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Hereford x Angus. That seems to be what is what is most acceptable to the market, the black white face heifers seem to be in demand, modern Herfs and Anguses don't have the slow growth they previously had so 550++ lb weaning weights are EASILY achievable in an all English herd, and if I were to chase carcass premiums a high quality grid would be the way to go. You can always cross those females to a Charolais if you need more weaning weight and leaner carcasses. If heat stress starts adversely affecting production, replace the Angus with Brangus.

IF anybody listened to the MARC people we would all be raising Pinzgauer composites......but that is only if anybody listed to the MARC folks.
 
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4CTophand

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HerefordSire":333ue0h8 said:
4CTophand":333ue0h8 said:
HerefordSire":333ue0h8 said:
Simple question....

Is the objective you are trying to teach, and I am teachable, to increase rancher profit from where ever we are currently in our operation? ...Or maybe to provide exactly what the meat packers want to maximize their spreads
?


What is the packer definition of "Med Choice YG 2"? Do you send your animals through the packer?

Quality grading is based on (1) degree of marbling and (2) degree of maturity.
Marbling
Marbling (intramuscular fat) is the intermingling or dispersion of fat within the lean. Graders evaluate the amount and distribution of marbling in the ribeye muscle at the cut surface after the carcass has been ribbed between the 12th and 13th ribs. Degree of marbling is the primary determination of quality grade.
Degrees of Marbling
Each degree of marbling is divided into 100 subunits. In general, however, marbling scores are discussed in tenths within each degree of marbling (e.g.,Slight 90, Small 00, Small 10).

Grade Marbling Score

Prime + Abundant 00-100
Prime ° Moderately Abundant 00-100
Prime - Moderate 00-100
Choice + Moderate 00-100
Choice ° Modest 00-100
Select + Small 00-100
Select – Slight 50-100
Standard + Traces 34-100
Standard ° Practically Devoid 67-100 to Traces 00-33
Standard - Practically Devoid 00-66

In addition to marbling, there are other ways to evaluate muscle for quality. Firmness of muscle proper color and texture. Desirable ribeyes will exhibit an adequate amount of finely dispersed marbling in a firm, fine textured, bright, cherry-red colored lean. As an animal matures, the characteristics of muscle change, and muscle color becomes darker and muscle texture becomes coarser.

Maturity

Maturity refers to the physiological age of the animal rather than the chronological age. Because the chronological age is virtually never known, physiological maturity is used; and the indicators are bone characteristics, ossification of cartilage, color and texture of ribeye muscle. Cartilage becomes bone, lean color darkens and texture becomes coarser with increasing age. Cartilage and bone maturity receives more emphasis because lean color and texture can be affected by other postmortem factors.
Cartilage evaluated in determining beef carcass physiological maturity are those associated with the vertebrae of the backbone, except the cervical (neck). Thus the cartilage between and on the dorsal edges of the individual sacral and lumbar vertebrae as well as the cartilage located on the dorsal surface of the spinous processes of the thoracic vertebrae (buttons). Cartilage in all these areas are considered in arriving at the maturity group. The buttons are the most prominent, softest and least ossified in the younger carcasses. As maturity proceeds from A to E, progressively more and more ossification becomes evident. Ribs are quite round and red in A maturity carcasses, whereas E maturity carcasses have wide and flat ribs. There is a posterior-anterior progression in maturity. Thus, ossification begins in the sacral region and with advancing age proceeds to the lumbar region and then even later it begins in the thoracic region (buttons) of the carcass.
In terms of chronological age, the buttons begin to ossify at 30 months of age
Carcasses are stratified into five maturity groups, based on the estimated age of the live animal

Carcass maturity Approximate live age

A 9 - 30 mos.
B 30 - 42 mos
C 42 - 72 mos
D 72 - 96 mos
E --------------

Since I know you will next ask for YG’s ---here they are……………………
The yield grades:


Yield Grade 0
A few out there and they end up as 1, but are really zero.

Yield Grade 1
The carcass is covered with a thin layer of external fat over the loin and rib; there are slight deposits of fat in the flank, cod or udder, kidney, pelvic and heart regions. Usually, there is a very thin layer of fat over the outside of the round and over the chuck.

Yield Grade 2
The carcass is almost completely covered with external fat, but lean is very visible through the fat over the outside of the round, chuck, and neck. Usually, there is a slightly thin layer of fat over the inside round, loin, and rib, with a slightly thick layer of fat over the rump and sirloin.

Yield Grade 3
The carcass is usually completely covered with external fat; lean is plainly visible through the fat only on the lower part of the outside of the round and neck. Usually, there is a slightly thick layer of fat over the rump and sirloin. Also, there are usually slightly larger deposits of fat in the flank, cod or udder, kidney, pelvic and heart regions.

Yield Grade 4
The carcass is usually completely covered with external fat, except that muscle is visible in the shank, outside of the flank and plate regions. Usually, there is a moderately thick layer of external fat over the inside of the round, loin, and rib, along with a thick layer of fat over the rump and sirloin. There are usually large deposits of fat in the flank, cod or udder, kidney, pelvic and heart regions.

Yield Grade 5
Generally, the carcass is covered with a thick layer of fat on all external surfaces. Extensive fat is found in the brisket, cod or udder, kidney, pelvic and heart regions.

Do you send your animals through the packer?
YES
 
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4CTophand

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Now that all info is there let's see some answers.......
And if you dont understand the questions ask a peer --my last post. :tiphat:
 

cfpinz

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backhoeboogie":1jhvas65 said:
I am not about to change what I have been doing based on a two minute read from someone who has probably never raised cattle in the conditions I raise them in.

Or in any conditions for that matter.
 

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