Silver
Well-known member
Have you priced it out? I haven't talked to my vet about it yet so curious.
When to treat symptoms of pneumonia.
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Well no, but I am thinking it may be a bit cheaper than two and one less thing in the tag box to do with a protective mom wanting her calf back sooner than later.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
I was disappointed to read "after 7 days of age". I don't know how "true" that is, but I want it for newborns. I may just stick with my Inforce3. Zero health issues. Maybe don't fix it if it aint broke.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
There are several studies on giving Nasalgen3-PMH to calves between 1 and 7 days old. See this link.
www.merck-animal-health-usa.com
BOVILIS® NASALGEN® 3-PMH | Merck Animal Health USA
The color of unmatched intranasal protection. NEW BOVILIS® NASALGEN® 3-PMH is the first and only intranasal BRD vaccine offering protection against IBR, BRSV, PI3, Pasteurella multocida and Mannheimia haemolytica. Safe to use in young calves for a strong, healthy foundation. And a unique...
www.merck-animal-health-usa.com
Silver
Well-known member
Inforce 3 Indications
For vaccination of healthy cattle 3 days of age or older, including pregnant cows, to prevent respiratory disease caused by bovine respiratory syncytial virus (BRSV), and as an aid in preventing respiratory disease caused by infectious bovine rhinotracheitis (IBR) virus and parainfluenza3 (PI3) virus. A duration of immunity of at least 193 days has been demonstrated against IBR, duration of immunity against BRSV and PI3 has not been established.
So according to label Inforce 3 is not for fresh newborns, but we know it works.
For vaccination of healthy cattle 3 days of age or older, including pregnant cows, to prevent respiratory disease caused by bovine respiratory syncytial virus (BRSV), and as an aid in preventing respiratory disease caused by infectious bovine rhinotracheitis (IBR) virus and parainfluenza3 (PI3) virus. A duration of immunity of at least 193 days has been demonstrated against IBR, duration of immunity against BRSV and PI3 has not been established.
So according to label Inforce 3 is not for fresh newborns, but we know it works.
Silver
Well-known member
Just talked to vet clinic, Nasalgen here in 10 dose bottles is about $44. A bit more than Inforce but more and better coverage. I think I will be using it this spring.
Katpau
Well-known member
Checked out the Coop website. My price for 50 dose Inforce 3 is $66.61. Nasalgen 3 50 dose is $163.58. One shot BVD 50 dose is $152.44.
Looks like it is cheaper to give Nasalgen 3 rather than giving Inforce 3 along with the One Shot. If you are not worried about BVD & Mannheima Haemolyica, you could give just Inforce, but I personally wouldn't recommend that.
Looks like I will be switching to Nasalgen too.
Looks like it is cheaper to give Nasalgen 3 rather than giving Inforce 3 along with the One Shot. If you are not worried about BVD & Mannheima Haemolyica, you could give just Inforce, but I personally wouldn't recommend that.
Looks like I will be switching to Nasalgen too.
Katpau
Well-known member
For comparison to Silver's post: Here are 10 dose prices in Oregon USA.
$44 Canadian = $32.26 US
10 dose Nasalgen 3 PHM $35.07.
10 dose Inforce 3 $16.50, plus 10 dose One Shot BVD $29.64 = $46.14 combined
$44 Canadian = $32.26 US
10 dose Nasalgen 3 PHM $35.07.
10 dose Inforce 3 $16.50, plus 10 dose One Shot BVD $29.64 = $46.14 combined
Nesikep
Well-known member
Just for reference, Tulamaxx is one of the brand names of generic Draxxin
So before we all jump ship from Inforce to Nasalgen, a couple questions.
Does anyone have issues with bacterial pneumonia in pre-branding age calves? Mannheimia in these calves certainly exists, but it isn't common. I see it by far most commonly in calves out of first calf heifers, but not all that much in the cow herd.
If it's the cats meow, why haven't we all already been doing it? Merck has had the Once PMH IN Mannheimia/Pasteurella product for a number of years now, add it to either inforce or straight nasalgen, and you basically have Nasalgen PMH. That option has been around for quite a while.
Does it work? I know merck has their studies show duration of immunity, but can you give pasterurella to a newborn and really expect any kind of decent immunity. When a calf hits the ground, everything its immune systems experiences is new. If you squirt a viral/PMH vaccine up its nose, it is trying to respond to that now on top of everything else, how much can an 8 hour old immune system really do all at once? I don't know the answer, but I am skeptical.
I'll offer up my experience with these products. If you have a herd that doesnt have issues with pneumonia in the first 6 weeks of life, these products will work great in your herd. I don't care which one you use, you will probably still not have issues with pneumonia. I've worked with a number of herds that have pneumonia issues in these calves, I've tried all of these products in newborn calves in these herds and have yet to find one that seems to consistently improve the problem. My opinion on these products is if you have disease in these young calves and are looking for vaccine options, the vaccine needs to go into the cow, doesn't matter if you are dealing with scours, purple gut, or pneumonia, the cow has an immune system that can handle these products and make antibody. PMH vaccines are all expensive, if we aren't having issues with the disease, maybe we should wait to make that vaccine investment until branding time when the calf is likely to respond a little better to it. In baby calves that do have these issues, I think there are better interventions.
Does anyone have issues with bacterial pneumonia in pre-branding age calves? Mannheimia in these calves certainly exists, but it isn't common. I see it by far most commonly in calves out of first calf heifers, but not all that much in the cow herd.
If it's the cats meow, why haven't we all already been doing it? Merck has had the Once PMH IN Mannheimia/Pasteurella product for a number of years now, add it to either inforce or straight nasalgen, and you basically have Nasalgen PMH. That option has been around for quite a while.
Does it work? I know merck has their studies show duration of immunity, but can you give pasterurella to a newborn and really expect any kind of decent immunity. When a calf hits the ground, everything its immune systems experiences is new. If you squirt a viral/PMH vaccine up its nose, it is trying to respond to that now on top of everything else, how much can an 8 hour old immune system really do all at once? I don't know the answer, but I am skeptical.
I'll offer up my experience with these products. If you have a herd that doesnt have issues with pneumonia in the first 6 weeks of life, these products will work great in your herd. I don't care which one you use, you will probably still not have issues with pneumonia. I've worked with a number of herds that have pneumonia issues in these calves, I've tried all of these products in newborn calves in these herds and have yet to find one that seems to consistently improve the problem. My opinion on these products is if you have disease in these young calves and are looking for vaccine options, the vaccine needs to go into the cow, doesn't matter if you are dealing with scours, purple gut, or pneumonia, the cow has an immune system that can handle these products and make antibody. PMH vaccines are all expensive, if we aren't having issues with the disease, maybe we should wait to make that vaccine investment until branding time when the calf is likely to respond a little better to it. In baby calves that do have these issues, I think there are better interventions.
Good post, @Dempster. I actually have more issues with my weanlings. Most likely because we're in a severe drought and they stand at the corner breathing in all the dust. Or an epic rain/temp drop in previous years. My calves do get Inforce 3 at birth and I rarely have to treat one for pneumonia, but again, it's usually due to freaky weather. Sometimes I can get them in, sometimes I have to cowgirl up and treat in the pasture. Did get lucky twice this year and was able to sneak up and hit 'em with Draxxin KP while they were nursing (this is when it helps to have super calm cows).
I did an experiment this year with my weanlings. Full disclosure: I'm a proponent of taking the temp, figuring out what's really wrong before administering antibiotics. BUT . . . know your cattle. I'm with them twice a day and I know when something's wrong. Anyway, had a calf with a droopy ear, just hanging around the feed bunk, acting off. Immediately on my watch list. Same thing later that day. Still watching. No improvement the next morning and a snotty nose. Almost all my calves were hand feeders, so I walked over and offered a cube. Ate it. And another. Ended up breaking Sustain III calf boluses in half and hand-fed (with cubes) enough for a 700 lb. calf. Bingo! Huge improvement by that afternoon without having to get him in the chute. And worked on 2 other calves. Don't underestimate sulfamethazine as a treatment for bacterial pneumonia/pasteurella.
I did an experiment this year with my weanlings. Full disclosure: I'm a proponent of taking the temp, figuring out what's really wrong before administering antibiotics. BUT . . . know your cattle. I'm with them twice a day and I know when something's wrong. Anyway, had a calf with a droopy ear, just hanging around the feed bunk, acting off. Immediately on my watch list. Same thing later that day. Still watching. No improvement the next morning and a snotty nose. Almost all my calves were hand feeders, so I walked over and offered a cube. Ate it. And another. Ended up breaking Sustain III calf boluses in half and hand-fed (with cubes) enough for a 700 lb. calf. Bingo! Huge improvement by that afternoon without having to get him in the chute. And worked on 2 other calves. Don't underestimate sulfamethazine as a treatment for bacterial pneumonia/pasteurella.
faster horses
Well-known member
I'm going to throw this out there and you can take it for what it is worth.
We had terrible sickness in our calves until we got on a good mineral program.
We were giving shots at branding until a veterinarian told us that the calves were too young
even then to utilize the vaccines. So except for blackleg plus C&D, we didn't give any more
shots at branding. What we did do was enhance the immune system of the cow through the mineral. That in turn, made the colostrum better, which protected the calves that were born.
As I say, take it for what it is worth. But I can guarantee you it worked for us. We went from doctoring 95% of the calves (some more than once) to maybe doctoring 1%. Some years we didn't doctor anything and didn't lose a calf after it was born.
What we found after 8 years of doctoring sick calves was the cattle had a copper deficiency.
This was back from 1985 to 1993. Not a lot was known about mineral back then. Feeding it changed our operation.
I hope this post has some merit for some of you.
We had terrible sickness in our calves until we got on a good mineral program.
We were giving shots at branding until a veterinarian told us that the calves were too young
even then to utilize the vaccines. So except for blackleg plus C&D, we didn't give any more
shots at branding. What we did do was enhance the immune system of the cow through the mineral. That in turn, made the colostrum better, which protected the calves that were born.
As I say, take it for what it is worth. But I can guarantee you it worked for us. We went from doctoring 95% of the calves (some more than once) to maybe doctoring 1%. Some years we didn't doctor anything and didn't lose a calf after it was born.
What we found after 8 years of doctoring sick calves was the cattle had a copper deficiency.
This was back from 1985 to 1993. Not a lot was known about mineral back then. Feeding it changed our operation.
I hope this post has some merit for some of you.
Silver
Well-known member
I wonder if one of our DVM's can tell us:
If a calf has been challenged ( vaccinated) and this initial vaccination is good for say at least 122 days, will that calf respond better when re-vaccinated at weaning (200 days +/-) than a calf that had not been vaccinated previously?
If a calf has been challenged ( vaccinated) and this initial vaccination is good for say at least 122 days, will that calf respond better when re-vaccinated at weaning (200 days +/-) than a calf that had not been vaccinated previously?
Dave
Well-known member
I have had issues post branding. We have been giving the Inforce or Nasalgen at branding. No we are switching to the Nasalgen PMH. I have never given new born calves either one of them. We give new calves Multimin and Calvary 8.
GoWyo
Well-known member
Only thing I try to vax newborns for is pasteurella (7-way). We get spring snow storms and the calves shelter up for 12+ hours and then gorge on milk and get purple gut started. 7-way helps, but still always a couple we have to treat. Those get spectinomycin oral (pig antibiotic recommended by vet), some C&D antitoxin oral and sub Q and they usually resolve pretty quick..
kenny thomas
Well-known member
I'm thinking without looking but isn't Draxxin 1cc per 100lb and Tulamaxx 2.5cc per 100lb. That changes the dosage price some.
Nesikep
Well-known member
I haven't looked at the dosage at all.. I asked my vet about it and they hadn't even heard of it..
Per the websites:
Tulamaxx: Inject subcutaneously in the neck, a single dose of 2.5 mg/kg body weight (1.25 mL/50kg).
To administer DRAXXIN, inject subcutaneously in the neck as a single dose of 2.5 mg/kg (1.1 mL/100 lb.) body weight (BW). Do not inject more than 10 mL per injection site.*
Not sure how 2.5 mg/kg equates to 1.25 ml for one and 1.1 for the other but I always use 1.1 per 100 lbs. of Draxxin (or Draxxin KP).
Tulamaxx: Inject subcutaneously in the neck, a single dose of 2.5 mg/kg body weight (1.25 mL/50kg).
To administer DRAXXIN, inject subcutaneously in the neck as a single dose of 2.5 mg/kg (1.1 mL/100 lb.) body weight (BW). Do not inject more than 10 mL per injection site.*
Not sure how 2.5 mg/kg equates to 1.25 ml for one and 1.1 for the other but I always use 1.1 per 100 lbs. of Draxxin (or Draxxin KP).
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Old thinking was that no vaccine worked on calves while they have their colostrum antibodies. Research proved that was wrong.
My normal routine is Inf 3 at birth + Multimin & A&D . BoviSh 5L5 at 3 and 4 months of age + OneShot Ultra 8 at 3 mo and Ultra Choice 8 at 4 mos. Nothing else until a month after weaning.
We were having pneumonia/respiratory problems on our very young calves. Born Jan/Feb they are exposed to severe weather of ups & downs.
I totally agree with a top notch mineral program.
I think I will continue the Inf 3 at birth and start giving Nasalgen 3 PMH with Ultra Choice at 3 months instead of the BS & OneShot.
My normal routine is Inf 3 at birth + Multimin & A&D . BoviSh 5L5 at 3 and 4 months of age + OneShot Ultra 8 at 3 mo and Ultra Choice 8 at 4 mos. Nothing else until a month after weaning.
We were having pneumonia/respiratory problems on our very young calves. Born Jan/Feb they are exposed to severe weather of ups & downs.
I totally agree with a top notch mineral program.
I think I will continue the Inf 3 at birth and start giving Nasalgen 3 PMH with Ultra Choice at 3 months instead of the BS & OneShot.
