What's wrong with Simmental cattle?

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highgrit

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At the last 3 bull sales I've been to, Simangus has out sold the Simmental everytime. Just wondering why?
Straight Simmental just don't seem to sell as good as thier crossbreeds. Is this happening all over the country or just in the south?
 
Only places in this country where Simmental is really popular is where there is cheap and ready access to large quantities of grains. For that reason, they have always been popular in the Prairies. Here I could count the number of people, with any Simmentals left, on two hands. Angus and Herefords are the kings here. Charolais are third.
 
M5farm":rd94bm3b said:
It started in Texas, there is a ranch out there that produces Sim Angus no matter what bull is used.
You really think BB or BBJ have any Sim or Angus left in them? You do realize that BB,III is and up and coming yearling and most likely will be an awesome herd builder. :nod:
 
Aaron":2hgj2zoa said:
Only places in this country where Simmental is really popular is where there is cheap and ready access to large quantities of grains. For that reason, they have always been popular in the Prairies. Here I could count the number of people, with any Simmentals left, on two hands. Angus and Herefords are the kings here. Charolais are third.
I can count the numbers of people with Hereford on just one hand when black simmental and balancers went popular at this moment. Few years ago I have to borrow two hands and a foot to count numbers of people with herfs. On bright side, Herf calves do well at the sale barns in recent years.
 
TexasBred":27za25vs said:
M5farm":27za25vs said:
It started in Texas, there is a ranch out there that produces Sim Angus no matter what bull is used.
You really think BB or BBJ have any Sim or Angus left in them? You do realize that BB,III is and up and coming yearling and most likely will be an awesome herd builder. :nod:
Perfect! I need him for my imbalancers, horned ringfeeders and instabilizers.
 
highgrit":3komk3h7 said:
At the last 3 bull sales I've been to, Simangus has out sold the Simmental everytime. Just wondering why?
Straight Simmental just don't seem to sell as good as thier crossbreeds. Is this happening all over the country or just in the south?
Simangus offers heterosis and yield grade over angus based cows without messing with quality grade to much. Full sim messes with quality grade, which is what is driving the market we're in.
 
CP, would Simmental cattle be the better choice for hamburger then? Or because of the heterosis will a Simangus still produce more meat?
 
Yes, it seems that SimAngus are outselling purebred Simmentals at most sales I go to and sale reports I read. The same is going on with Gelbvieh breeders, with Balancers typically outselling the purebred Gelbvieh.

Hmmm..the chicken industry went to hyrbrid/composite/crossbred breeding stock many, many years ago. The swine industry saw a big move to hybrids in the 70's and 80's. I guess it is the beef industry's turn. The hybrids have worked well in birds and hogs and so far they seem to be working well in the beef industry too. To clarify this, not any old crossbred is superior to a good purebred, but planned matings of complimentary breeds seem to work well.
 
I would choose Simangus™ (sorry, I couldn't help myself with the trademark) if breeding to commercial straight bred cows or cattle based on non-Simmy and/or Non-Angus breeding for the 3way or 4way cross, such as braford type cattle. I would use PB Simmy if breeding to crossbred commercial cattle of various backgrounds, or angus type cattle.
 
I don't think it's a Simmental thing, it's the rancher/farmers that are scared after they used the red/yellow/white of the 80's. The few guys the got in on SimAngus early here are just going to keep running SimAngus to some day have an all SimAngus herd. No real need for a PB bull.
 
Taurus":2xel1q7r said:
John SD":2xel1q7r said:
No idea why, but Simmentals are more rare than Herefords here.
That's funny because majority of Simmentals have been coming from ND and SD.

Perhaps it's one of those East/West River things?

There is a guy in my county 40 miles from my place used to advertise as XXXXXX Simmental & Angus. Now it's just XXXXXX Angus.

As most everywhere, straight black Angus has taken over here. Not as much crossbreeding as there used to be with Hereford, Charolais, and Limousin.

Salers is another breed I wouldn't know where you'd have to go to buy one, if you wanted one :eek: "Here" Salers had a reputation for nasty personality.

Neighbor 10 miles away sold Salers for a while. He started out private treaty, eventually went 150 miles to sell them before he quit. His grown sons are all Angus and cross them with Charolais.
 
Till-Hill":2abv920o said:
I don't think it's a Simmental thing, it's the rancher/farmers that are scared after they used the red/yellow/white of the 80's. The few guys the got in on SimAngus early here are just going to keep running SimAngus to some day have an all SimAngus herd. No real need for a PB bull.

You nailed it for me. There are certainly still plenty of great Simmental breeders in these parts. Mine was a commercial Simmental herd. My FIL was a Simmental guy and as he began to wind down I started buying him out. I didn't get scared, but I did get tired of pulling calves during the time frame you mentioned. They were big girls but I didn't care for the amount of daylight under them and the amount of forage required and still carry that empty look.
Then the market changed and if they weren't black you took a hit. Had what I thought were nice commercial calves, but the red/yellow/whites just didn't suit the market. Finally broke down and went to a black Simmental Bull and then bit that bullet and went to an Angus Bull. That's were it changed for me.The breeds compliment each other well.
Over time I've gotten to mostly all SimAngus cows. Still have a few Simmental girls left. Last two Bull have been SimAngus Hybrids and will probably run that route for the foreseeable future. If I get to far to the Angus I won't hesitate to buy a good Sim Bull. I don't see that happening using the Hybrids. The cross just seems to work well here.
 
As a Simmental and Simangus breeder I can say that probably there are only a few good bloodlines available and once you have gone thru them its pretty much over. It would take a lot of time to go back to Fleckvieh and start a new PBSM bloodline --I think that is kinda where we are. There are only 2 Red bloodlines available in PBSM now that any serious cattleman would want.

I'd say that 80% of the bulls available today in Simmental have Legacy in their background --very much overused --some are inbred Legacy. For example a popular animal is Upgrade --not only does he have 600U in his bloodline 4 times he also has Legacy, so once you use him you have grossly inbred everything you own. He's okay for the commercial sector as a Terminal sire, but for the PB business he is a bust. He is mostly popular in the Show Sector within Simmental.

The chickens are coming home to roost on these show cattle bred bulls -- people are finding out that they are a crap sammich on their numbers and dont perform well in a commercially focused operation.

There are two sectors within Simmental: the Performance Sector and the Show Sector.

My analogy, though harsh, is just to better differentiate between the two for better understanding.

The Performance Sector are the breeders that take all the data. We are the members of the Total Herd Enrollment Program, Carcass Merit Program; we send our bulls to test stations; we collect the data on CE, BW, WW, YW, MCE, MWW, MM, DOC, YG, Marb, BF, Shr, API, TI, Scrotal, Hip Heights, Ultrasound, frame scores, etc. and this is where the EPD's and Indices are derived from.

The Show Sector are the breeders that put in little or usually no data in the system. They are not members of Total Herd Enrollment, they don't support the Carcass Merit Program; they don't put bulls in state Bull test stations and they are usually the first ones to tell you that EPD's are not worth anything. Even though they do not collect any data they use the data.

My analogy for this is the Tax Payer and the Welfare Recipient.

The Tax Payer, being the members of the Performance Sector; add to the till in the form of data collection. We are the ones that provide all the information for the EPD's and Indices. We have been propping up the Show Sector for decades as they utilize and benefit from the data we collect. It's just like the tax payer paying the way for the welfare recipient.

The Performance Sector is more commercially focused as we think that any breed association that is not commercially focused would be a dying breed. We are the Tax Payers providing for the welfare recips.

The Welfare Recipient, being the members of the Show Sector; add nothing to the till, yet benefit from those who do all the work. They are the first ones to tell you that you should base your quality assessments on Phenotype. They are the ones who have been able to stay in business by keeping the misinformed and/or ill-informed buyer in the dark on EPD's and Indices. These are the people raising show cattle that have no supporting data of any quality parameters, because they do not input any data – their data is derived from the Performance Sector.

The show sector folks are really upset over the EPD's, Indices, DNA testing --basically anything that brings forth more transparency -- mostly because their cattle wont work for the "guys" trying to make a living
 

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