What to do with open cows?

[dun]

Dun,

I would attribute her erratic behavior to stress as show life can be very stressful on cattle.

Although she may appear in perfect physical condition, emotionally she is not from being taken away from her herd environment and being reconditioned to do things that don't come naturally to her.
Show life for a heifer is far more stressful then being weaned on wheels and shipped through an action house, which often causes shipping fever.
As show life is generally a much longer period of time it can even cause them to abort.

I have seen many cases of aborted fetuses in heifers within 30 days from being rounded up and worked that I attributed to nothing more than rough handling.

MW

Correct, but the heifer she showed the year before I AIed at one of the shows and she settled.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Karin

Hi Karin, you wouldn't be the same Karin over on http://en.allexperts.com/q/Cows-Cattle- ... 119399.htm , would you?
If so you might be pleased to hear some of my students have referenced you as a source on some of my required papers, as some have done with this board.

Yes, not only do I have my degree from the big U I also teach there and I am a 3rd generation sh-- kicken farm girl.

Well I can't deny you caught me on that one.

Why so many technicalities??

I would hardly call a mathematical impossibility being "frikkin" technical!!

You do the math!
Here is out goal and we have only one cow.
To produce 1 calf per calendar year on Oct. 1. Each and every year. ( which is what Tncattle is trying to do while trying to solve his open cow time )

I will accept the rule of thumb of 21 day cycling time and a 283 day gestation time with no variations.
You may set the recuperation time.

Our one cow calved on Oct. 1 2011 and your breeding time begins as you can only breed an open cow.
When would you put your bull in to produce an Oct 1 2012 calf ?
What was your open cow time?
MW

Well obviously we have to have an open cow time of around 80 days in order for that cow to, hypothetically, produce a calf on the exact same date that she produced one on the previous year. Your last post that I had quoted had gotten me a little confuddled because you had put in another variable that seemed to get away from the main discussion, i.e., this:

So, if you start your breeding season ( 60 days ) in the middle of your calving season ( 30 days ) when only half your cows have given birth and pull the bull from the cows in total of 60 days, at least 30% of your herd will not be breed.

It took me a few readings-over to finally figure out what you were trying to say.

The problem with this statement and the rest of your posts is that it didn't take into account the time a cow needs to involute her uterus. Sure a cow can come back into heat two to three weeks after calving (approximately), but that doesn't mean that she's ready to breed right after calving. Everyone on here, and I'm sure you do as well, knows that a cow needs at least 45 to 60 days of rest (being time to be open) before being set to breed and be pregnant again. And of course, in order for a cow to calve on the same day as last year, this rest period has to be a little less than twice as long as 45 days.

The other problem is that you are accounting for an individual cow, not the herd as a whole, thus making the discussion a bit more complicated than it should be. Which is partly the reason why I got frustrated and asked "why so many technicalities." This whole thing you've brought up would have a lot of merit for a dairy herd which, in most cases, does account for every individual cow as far as breeding and gestation is concerned, but for a beef cow-calf herd? Not in the least.

What I also don't understand is that you seem to be (keyword: seem) against the idea of even having an open period after the end of a calving season, or at least a prolonged one. Again, common practice and knowledge in the beef cow-calf reproductive schedule is that producers are accounting for timing of reproduction on a cow-herd basis, not individualized. This is the reason why there's a prolonged schedule for when to put the bulls in and when to pull them out, when calving will start and when it will end, and when to put the bulls back in again, and why there needs to be a "long" open period (of around 80 to 90 days) to let all the cows to get back into normal estrus. It's because things are operated on a whole-herd basis, not on an individual cow/heifer basis.

Now, this maybe further hijacking the thread, but what I'd like to know is how can you catch an open cow when you've got a year-round calving/breeding season. Not to mention fertility issues...

 

[regolith]

Yes, not only do I have my degree from the big U I also teach there and I am a 3rd generation sh-- kicken farm girl.

MW

I'm sorry for your students. It's evident why a large number of very good cattlemen leave education at the earliest opportunity.
What has been said before. There is nothing complicated about having a short, annual, calving and breeding season. You are determined to make it complicated. If you decide that is not what you are talking about (instead focussing on the cow that produces five calves in four years), then that is a different discussion, not this thread.

 

[medicinewoman]

Karin'

It took me a few readings-over to finally figure out what you were trying to say.

That has always been a problem of mine. Believe me, I can verbalize it much better then I can write it, so please feel free to ask question if I am not clear.
I only got an A-, some years back, when I did a paper on this exact subject for that exact reason.
The foot note read: Excellent on the facts but you failed to communicate them, I will never forget those words.

The problem with this statement and the rest of your posts is that it didn't take into account the time a cow needs to involute her uterus.

It sure does. It's in the variance and recuperation time.

Variances = 14 days
Recuperation and recycle time = 30 days ( with variances 44 days )

Sure a cow can come back into heat two to three weeks after calving (approximately), but that doesn't mean that she's ready to breed right after calving.

True, but it also doesn't mean she is not ready to breed. It has been reported that cows have breed as early as 11 days and breed after giving birth, on the low end. But that is rare.
Still on the low end generally 30 days is the rule of thumb.
Those that come in heat under 30 days usually end up being a false heat and she will come back in heat in 21 days. The chances of a heat being a false heat is almost nonexistent after 60 days after birth, unless something other than birth caused it.
When a cow is in false heat she will have or exhibit every sign on a real heat except she will not let the bull achieve penetration. Even a bull can not tell the difference and will mount her as do other cows in a SAG.

Everyone on here, and I'm sure you do as well, knows that a cow needs at least 45 to 60 days of rest (being time to be open) before being set to breed and be pregnant again.

I don't agree, some maybe, but I don't see 30 days as being unreasonable when nature is allowed to take its course.
But what is interesting is, you have now plugged in a 15 day variable yet you object to me using variables. To reach your starting point of 45 days, I used 44 days.
Sounds to me like we are in agreement on that one.

And of course, in order for a cow to calve on the same day as last year, this rest period has to be a little less than twice as long as 45 days.

OK, but lets try saying it this way.
The time a cow must be open, to produce a calf each year on the same date each year
is 82 days, with no variable.
Is not 82 days "a little less than twice as long as 45 days."
Sounds like we are in agreement on that one also.

So the bottom line is:
To produce 1 calf per cow on the same day each year you MUST leave that cow open for approximately 82 days.
And if you have 100 head of cows, that's 8,200 days or 273 months or 22 yrs of non production in just one year for the total herd.




Now to address Tncattle's problem.
You only have two options, sell them and replace them with bred cows in sink with your herd or leave them open to your next breeding season, but don't think this will finally put an end to your open cow problem.
Because any variable can put your cows, new or old, back out sink.
It's just a matter of time as variables magnify each and every year.
That is why those using this management procedure must also use a clean up bull.
MW

 

[IluvABbeef]

The problem with this statement and the rest of your posts is that it didn't take into account the time a cow needs to involute her uterus.

It sure does. It's in the variance and recuperation time.

Variances = 14 days
Recuperation and recycle time = 30 days ( with variances 44 days )

Sure a cow can come back into heat two to three weeks after calving (approximately), but that doesn't mean that she's ready to breed right after calving.

True, but it also doesn't mean she is not ready to breed. It has been reported that cows have breed as early as 11 days and breed after giving birth, on the low end. But that is rare. And that's where problems lie, simply because literally no time has been given to the cow to undergo complete involution of her uterus.
Still on the low end generally 30 days is the rule of thumb. Or 45 days.
Those that come in heat under 30 days usually end up being a false heat and she will come back in heat in 21 days. The chances of a heat being a false heat is almost nonexistent after 60 days after birth, unless something other than birth caused it. I don't think the 21-day thing is quite right. Indeed there's a period of anestrus (I really don't think "false heat" is the right term here, though you are right in saying that there is a chance that a cow will show "false" or silent heat after calving or after her anestrus period) after the cow has given birth, but because her uterus is undergoing involution and the follicles in her ovaries need the time to start cycling normal again, she's going to have periods of short estrous, ones that are around 7 to 12 days long simply because of the time needed for these follicles to grow again. Hence there's going to be periods when estrus is irregular, and not going to go right back to 21-day-estrous 14 to 16 or the rarer 11 days after calving. But I think we agree on this.
When a cow is in false heat she will have or exhibit every sign on a real heat except she will not let the bull achieve penetration. Even a bull can not tell the difference and will mount her as do other cows in a SAG. I have to disagree here. If she's showing signs of heat she'll for sure let the bull service her, but the issue is if she's ovulating or not. If she's not ovulating but showing heat (anovulatory heat), she won't get bred, but if she's having a silent heat, she'll be ovulating but showing no signs of heat and the bull won't be interested in her. All the bull's interested in is if she's showing estrus signs or not.

Everyone on here, and I'm sure you do as well, knows that a cow needs at least 45 to 60 days of rest (being time to be open) before being set to breed and be pregnant again.

I don't agree, some maybe, but I don't see 30 days as being unreasonable when nature is allowed to take its course.
But what is interesting is, you have now plugged in a 15 day variable yet you object to me using variables. To reach your starting point of 45 days, I used 44 days.
Sounds to me like we are in agreement on that one.
I don't think I said I disagreed on variances, I know that there's always variances with cow reproduction no matter how you look at it. What I don't get is where you're getting the 30 days from and how the 30 days factors into this, if you're talking about an entire rest period, not something else. Maybe you can explain yourself, but here's how I'm working this whole open period out:

We have 14 to 16 days (let's make it 15 to make it easier to work with), on average, that it takes for cows start ovulating (note I didn't say heat) after calving. So that's from day 0 (calving date) to day 15 (start of cycling). And this is without variances (explained later). This is the anestrus period. Once she starts going into heat, it may take around a month (or 30 days, approximately) for her estrous cycles to normalize. So:

15 days of anestrus + 30 days of involution = 45 day rest period.

But we all know that there are going to be a "depends on this" and "depends on that" for the whole thing to work itself out. Like with factors like body condition, nutritional factors, age, etc. when dealing with anestrus periods, not the whole anestrus + involution period. For instance, first-calvers generally take longer to go back to normal cycling or experience longer anestrus than older cows, and thin cows have a longer anestrus period than normal-conditioned cows, hence the "depends" part of this is that the anestrus period may last from a few weeks to a few months!

Then if you look at Anestrus + Involution, a cow with a calf at side will take longer to go back into normal estrous cycling, but shorter for a cow that has no calf at side.

But the 30-day "rule of thumb" you stated is beyond me. Is this the recuperation/involution period you're talking about or anestrus + involution? Or something else entirely?

Now let's remember this 45-day rest period is just something to follow when remembering how long a cow should go before getting bred. It doesn't mean to say that a producer can't nor shouldn't go longer in order to hit the same calving date as the previous year, as follows in the quote below.

And of course, in order for a cow to calve on the same day as last year, this rest period has to be a little less than twice as long as 45 days.

OK, but lets try saying it this way.
The time a cow must be open, to produce a calf each year on the same date each year
is 82 days, with no variable.
Is not 82 days "a little less than twice as long as 45 days."
Sounds like we are in agreement on that one also. Indeed.

So the bottom line is:
To produce 1 calf per cow on the same day each year you MUST leave that cow open for approximately 82 days.
And if you have 100 head of cows, that's 8,200 days or 273 months or 22 yrs of non production in just one year for the total herd.

MW

:???: :???: Now you've REALLY thrown a wrench into the gears! With a head of 100 cows, it should be the same amount of time they are open (i.e., anestrus + involution/time taken to go into normal estrous) as that one cow, regardless if you're adding all the open times for all the cows or not.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Just to confuse things further, involution = time taken to go back to normal cycling. Anestrus could/would also = Involution because from the moment the cow calves and passes afterbirth, the uterus begins, albeit slowly, shrink back to normal size.

So, let the discussion continue.

 

[medicinewoman]

Karin'

Now you've REALLY thrown a wrench into the gears! With a head of 100 cows, it should be the same amount of time they are open

If by that you mean they are all open at the same time in the same 82 days, you are correct.
And does not 82 days X 100 cows = 8,200 days of lost production for the whole herd for the year?
Forget about what they do in those 82 days they are open. They all could go play golf for all I care, as long as she is ready to breed on the 83 day after giving birth to deliver in 283 days to hit the target date.

I was simply pointing out the lost production by leaving all your cows open for 82 days.
I will leave it up to you to convert those 8,200 lost production day into dollars.
What does it cost you per day to maintain a cow? Now times it by 8,200 and you will get your total $$$ loss.
MW

Edited to add:
@ $500 per year / 365 = 1.39 per day X 8,200 days = $11,398 = dollar loss of production for the year

 

[Isomade]

I am now dumber for having read this entire thread. :dunce:

 

[IluvABbeef]

I am now dumber for having read this entire thread. :dunce:

:lol2: :tiphat:

 

[hypo-chrisy]

And does not 82 days X 100 cows = 8,200 days of lost production for the whole herd for the year?
Forget about what they do in those 82 days they are open. They all could go play golf for all I care, as long as she is ready to breed on the 83 day after giving birth to deliver in 283 days to hit the target date.
What does it cost you per day to maintain a cow? Now times it by 8,200 and you will get your total $$$ loss.
MW

Edited to add:
@ $500 per year / 365 = 1.39 per day X 8,200 days = $11,398 = dollar loss of production for the year

:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:
Look, you and I are much the same, were women who like to provoke people, but listen now your plain stupid. :wave: maybe those dollars are lost to you, an maybe your right or maybe your like the music industry losin money they never could get.
http://www.ted.com/talks/rob_reid_the_8 ... -publisher

An cows playin golf at work is stupid too, if the play golf when there dry I dont care.
An cows have more to do than gettin preg. They are producing milk, lots of milk an take care of there calfs.
Ya know beef cattle aint all about maximizin the we would of wanted two calves from evry cow an weaning 130% cow weight. I if input is free we can produce turkeys or milk. :2cents:

 

[hypo-chrisy]

double post :hide:

 

[backhoeboogie]

I am now dumber for having read this entire thread. :dunce:

Me too. If I wanted that 60 day season, I would leave the bull in for longer than these folks do. The cows that didn't make it within that 60 day window would be heavy bred and worth much more than an open cow.

If I did not leave my bull in, my cows would be bred by someone else's bull. I'd still be having calves at 10 1/2 months or so.

 

[SSGenetics]

hillsdown

I am a reincarnation of no one and I am here because I thought this was a professional board where I could possibly learn something from other professionals and pass on some of what I have already learned to others.

If this is not what this board is about, please let me know and I will be happy to go else where.
And I don't like your condescending attitude either. Grow up!
MW

medoicinewoman,

You want to learn something? Do a little less reading and a lot more ranching..... :roll:

I say again....... :secret:

 

[Dave]

hillsdown

I am a reincarnation of no one and I am here because I thought this was a professional board where I could possibly learn something from other professionals and pass on some of what I have already learned to others.

If this is not what this board is about, please let me know and I will be happy to go else where.
And I don't like your condescending attitude either. Grow up!
MW

medoicinewoman,

You want to learn something? Do a little less reading and a lot more ranching..... :roll:

I say again....... :secret:

I reminds me of a conversation I witnessed between a logger and a young college educated forest service employee. It ended with the logger telling the young guy that he was, "educated behond his ability to think."

Somewhere here we lost sight TN's original question/problem.

 

[IluvABbeef]

hillsdown

I am a reincarnation of no one and I am here because I thought this was a professional board where I could possibly learn something from other professionals and pass on some of what I have already learned to others.

If this is not what this board is about, please let me know and I will be happy to go else where.
And I don't like your condescending attitude either. Grow up!
MW

medoicinewoman,

You want to learn something? Do a little less reading and a lot more ranching..... :roll:

I say again....... :secret:

And despite the discussion, the KISS factor should still remain, no matter how sciencified or technified things get (or even I get in some discussions):

Keep It Simple Stupid.

Leave the science part to the scientists. Raising cattle shouldn't be so complicated.


And I hope TNcattle does figure something out with those open cows. Something simple like selling them off ASAP.