Weaning calves before selling

[Angus Cowman]

Here are the figures: Weaned calves weighing 500 lbs.

Take directly to the sale off the cow, at the local sale last week averaged $161/cwt = $805

Now keeping the same cattle for 45 days.

Cattle will lose approx 3% of weight post weaning or about 15 lbs. so now calves ave 485 lbs.
Factor in vaccines and parasite control
feed cost - if they will consume 3% of their body weight and using numbers that some of you have posted here
$60 per ton for hay and $280 per ton for grain.
figure in 9.5% interest for costs.
and their could be some death loss if you are having death loss in the weaning pen your management sucks
feeding 7 lbs grain per day and remainder in forage - here is the bottom line selling at the end of 45 days
1.75 lbs gain per day = 564 lb calf
2.00 lbs gain per day = 575 lb calf
my ADG was based from weaning date til sale date on the weaning weight when they came in so shrink has no basis in my operation plus with fenceline weaning and the way I wean I have minimal shrink
I have weighed calves at 21days post weaning and the ADG was well over 2 lbs so th shrink is minimal Again ave at local sale last week for this size cattle was $150/cwt 564 lb calf = $846
575 lb calf = $862.50

Take the costs for the 45 days and the 564 lb calf lost almost $2.00 and the 575 lb calf made $5.00

If you are selling 50 calves fed for 45 days that is $250 more in your pocket. This figures out to $5.56 per day. How much time per day was spent in feeding, handling and caring for those cattle? Minimum wage is $7.25 per hour. So this means that just to break even you couln't have over 45 minutes per day in labor.

so using the number straight from the OKC market
500lb calf at weaning brings $1.61= $805
weaned calf 1.93 ADG =586lb calf sells for $1.53 with value added for a total of $896
so gross profit was $91 pr hd
the cost to get this calf there was around $55 so you still made a $36 profit pr hd

it may not be as profitable or profitable at all for guys going to the local salebarn with 10 or 20 calves but for the way I market my calves it is profitable I have ran the numbers and do this for a living I don't have a day job nor does my wife

as for weaning calves management is the key
as for sicks we never Dr any calf during or after weaning(knock wood) most cattle that have to be Dr'd then are bought in cattle or calves that are stressed extensively

 

[Angus Cowman]

At the salebarn, how would a buyer know if a calf has been weaned 45 days or 24 hours??

If they are entered in a prevac sale it's pretty much the honor system. But at the local barn if they suspect they don;t meet the criteria they sell with the non-prevac calves. In our case we provide the documentation to support it. Age source verified and Pfizer weanvac documentation. An order buyer that can;t tell the difference between a freshly weaned calf and one that's been weaned for a while won;t be in business very long.

exactly

 

[dun]

I'll toss in this little tidbit too. If someone buys weanvac calves and they get the suspicion when they get them home that they weren;t as advertised the seller will have a hard time getting top price for his calves after that. There aren;t enough salebarns around that a producer can lie about his calves and not have it get spread aorund to everyplace he would want to sell his calves after that. In other words, maybe it's Karma, but he will screw himself in the longrun

 

[plumber_greg]

Around here without certificates from the vet, there is no premium. To run a calf in hte ring and announce,"Been weaned and has all their shots," means nothing. Mo has several weanvac programs to take advantage of, and the producers that try to MARKET their calves take advantage of them. If I was gonna' do all the vac myself, and think I was doing something good, I wouldn't waste my money, just wean them in the trailer. gs

 

[cbcr]

I have to agree on here that everyone's cost is going to be different depending on location, feed availability, etc.

I noticed that some of you mentioned vac programs. How many of you take advantage of some of the value-added programs or PVP's or QSA's. What are your thoughts on them good or bad.

Also I agree that if you have valid documentation to present at the sale barn should help, but I have seen firsthand that even taking info to the salebarn does not always get presented. Salebarns get paid either a flatrate for selling feeder cattle or a commission and most don't want to take the time to tell about what a group of cattle are genetically, healthwise or anything.

 

[Angus Cowman]

I have to agree on here that everyone's cost is going to be different depending on location, feed availability, etc.

I noticed that some of you mentioned vac programs. How many of you take advantage of some of the value-added programs or PVP's or QSA's. What are your thoughts on them good or bad.

Also I agree that if you have valid documentation to present at the sale barn should help, but I have seen firsthand that even taking info to the salebarn does not always get presented. Salebarns get paid either a flatrate for selling feeder cattle or a commission and most don't want to take the time to tell about what a group of cattle are genetically, healthwise or anything.

the programs I have seen seem to work pretty well
I don't participate in any of the sales or local programs
I do wean my calves, vac all my calves and Age and source verify my calves but I sell off the farm except what doesn't fit on the loads then they go thru the salebarn but I have a set bottom price on what they will bring thru the barns also

 

[bigbull338]

well 1 would think that on a pre vac 45 sale calves that everything is done by the rules but it isnt.heck ive known of people getting them up a week before an putting the taggs in their ears an doing very little to the calves.an i know of traders that buy calves out of the sale barn,an put a group of pre vac 45 calves togather.

 

[cbcr]

This is a concern, and has been for years. Many commercial producers feel that they have no other choice but to take them to a sale barn to sell.

But ultimately, who should be held accountable for false information. I've seen the salebarn lie more than producers, but they still have the customers and buyers.

 

[bigbull338]

This is a concern, and has been for years. Many commercial producers feel that they have no other choice but to take them to a sale barn to sell.

But ultimately, who should be held accountable for false information. I've seen the salebarn lie more than producers, but they still have the customers and buyers.

now your getting to the bottom of the prob.most sale barns are out for theirselves an the packer an feedlot buyers an screw the sellers.an when they get caught at it they try to wiggle their way out of it,been there done that.meny here at CT know i dont mind chewing a barn owner all over the barn,an ive done so a few times.the last time i did i wont go back to the barn.

 

[cbcr]

This is a concern, and has been for years. Many commercial producers feel that they have no other choice but to take them to a sale barn to sell.

But ultimately, who should be held accountable for false information. I've seen the salebarn lie more than producers, but they still have the customers and buyers.

now your getting to the bottom of the prob.most sale barns are out for theirselves an the packer an feedlot buyers an screw the sellers.an when they get caught at it they try to wiggle their way out of it,been there done that.meny here at CT know i dont mind chewing a barn owner all over the barn,an ive done so a few times.the last time i did i wont go back to the barn.

Right!!!!! Does anyone have any ideas for a solution?

 

[bigbull338]

you find a good honest barn owner thats wants your business an treats you fairly.or you sell them private treaty.

 

[SRBeef]

There are also getting to be more sales that are organized just for "preconditioned" calves. The Wisconsin Hereford Association runs one every year. Calves are certified weaned and vac and tagged as also age and source verified.

I think we will be seeing more of this in the future as buyers realize there is an economic benefit to purchasing calves that are NOT weaned on the trailer.

 

[Angus Cowman]

There are also getting to be more sales that are organized just for "preconditioned" calves. The Wisconsin Hereford Association runs one every year. Calves are certified weaned and vac and tagged as also age and source verified.

I think we will be seeing more of this in the future as buyers realize there is an economic benefit to purchasing calves that are NOT weaned on the trailer.

will also see more of it when the producer realize that they can profit from running uniform and consistant cows instead of crayon box herds

 

[cbcr]

How much money are producers potentially leaving on the table?

We read about how vac programs pay, age and source pays, known genetics pay, yada yada yada.

How many of you have watched RFD TV and some of the cattle shows or print advertising, touting how this breed or that breed does this or that. They then go to a feedlot for input from the feedlot about how well the cattle performed and they were very high percentage choice and prime at slaughter. Did you ever notice that many times this info is coming from the same feedlot?

Then there are the PVP's and QSA's. They each gather basically 3 pieces of information, premise ID, RFID number and birthdate of calf.

Then another avenue is the breed programs. Angus source as an example is only promoting Angus genetics, (the other breed registries promote thier breeds as well). This is all they are interested in, ask them about vaccinations, "Oh, well if you have that information we can note it, but it is not promoted."

Bottom line, aren't we ALL cattle producers? We have our different breeds. But shouldn't it be "what's under the hide that counts?" This includes genetics, vaccinations, age, etc.

What we have found there are several different programs, but NOBODY wants to work together. Many producers feel that if they participate in one of the programs, they are locked in, but what if cattle are selling better somewhere else?

Then on top of all this, WHO is out all of the expense? the cow/calf producer.

There is all the talk about global economy and that many of the foreign countries only want cattle that are age and source verified, but in the slaughter numbers, less that 4% are even age and source verified.

 

[Stocker Steve]

If you are selling 50 calves fed for 45 days that is $250 more in your pocket. This figures out to $5.56 per day. How much time per day was spent in feeding, handling and caring for those cattle? Minimum wage is $7.25 per hour. So this means that just to break even you couldn't have over 45 minutes per day in labor.

Depends on the time of year and the size of the group here. In early fall - - it is mostly small groups of unweaned calves, and you get less for weaned calves because they do not look quite as nice. In the winter - - it is mostly weaned calves and you get docked for un weanded.

 

[dun]

How much money are producers potentially leaving on the table?

We read about how vac programs pay, age and source pays, known genetics pay, yada yada yada.

How many of you have watched RFD TV and some of the cattle shows or print advertising, touting how this breed or that breed does this or that. They then go to a feedlot for input from the feedlot about how well the cattle performed and they were very high percentage choice and prime at slaughter. Did you ever notice that many times this info is coming from the same feedlot?

Then there are the PVP's and QSA's. They each gather basically 3 pieces of information, premise ID, RFID number and birthdate of calf.

Then another avenue is the breed programs. Angus source as an example is only promoting Angus genetics, (the other breed registries promote thier breeds as well). This is all they are interested in, ask them about vaccinations, "Oh, well if you have that information we can note it, but it is not promoted."

Bottom line, aren't we ALL cattle producers? We have our different breeds. But shouldn't it be "what's under the hide that counts?" This includes genetics, vaccinations, age, etc.

What we have found there are several different programs, but NOBODY wants to work together. Many producers feel that if they participate in one of the programs, they are locked in, but what if cattle are selling better somewhere else?

Then on top of all this, WHO is out all of the expense? the cow/calf producer.

There is all the talk about global economy and that many of the foreign countries only want cattle that are age and source verified, but in the slaughter numbers, less that 4% are even age and source verified.

Until last year we were part of a marketing program that thre state started up. The calves are all age source verified and RFID tagged. They have to be weaned 45 days and vaccinated and poured. They are comingled at a backgorunder and sorted. Only claves that are in the 1 and 2 large/medium to small large are accepted. They are sorted to groups by weight and sold via bids to any feedlot that bids and wins. We didn;t market through them last year because they've gtten to be more and more of retained ownership deals. Many of us last year wanted the money up front rather then waiting 6-8 months. These deal happens twice a year ofr spring and fall calves. With all of the bull calves we have this year we may do it again in the fall.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Until last year we were part of a marketing program that thre state started up. The calves are all age source verified and RFID tagged. They have to be weaned 45 days and vaccinated and poured. They are comingled at a backgorunder and sorted. Only claves that are in the 1 and 2 large/medium to small large are accepted. They are sorted to groups by weight and sold via bids to any feedlot that bids and wins. We didn;t market through them last year because they've gtten to be more and more of retained ownership deals.

What is driving retained ownership? I have thought about it... but always gone back to the sales barn for more :cowboy: with a pistol syringe on each hip.

 

[dun]

Until last year we were part of a marketing program that thre state started up. The calves are all age source verified and RFID tagged. They have to be weaned 45 days and vaccinated and poured. They are comingled at a backgorunder and sorted. Only claves that are in the 1 and 2 large/medium to small large are accepted. They are sorted to groups by weight and sold via bids to any feedlot that bids and wins. We didn;t market through them last year because they've gtten to be more and more of retained ownership deals.

What is driving retained ownership? I have thought about it... but always gone back to the sales barn for more :cowboy: with a pistol syringe on each hip.

The possibility of making more money

 

[kenny thomas]

well 1 would think that on a pre vac 45 sale calves that everything is done by the rules but it isnt.heck ive known of people getting them up a week before an putting the taggs in their ears an doing very little to the calves.an i know of traders that buy calves out of the sale barn,an put a group of pre vac 45 calves togather.

I will throw my :2cents: in here on this. We have 3 preconditoned sales a year. At the date that is 45 days prior to the sale, one of the reps of the sale (I am one of them) will visit each producer that has signed up calves and verify their number that they have weaned. The feed supplier has already ordered all the vac's and each producer gets both the vac's and ear tags from the same place. Each med is recorded by name, lot number, expiration date, and date given. Calf number is also recorded. Every calf in the sale has the same vac's and wormer.
We use the Range Ready plan from Boehringer Ingleheim and when all the working's have been done the info is sent to them and they send a verification certificate for each producer's calves. This goes with the calves when they are sold and shipped. Using their program they will back any problems that might occur.
Now there might be a crooked way around some of this but we know the calves are weaned because we have seen them. We know the vac's have been bought and used. Works for us, may not for everyone. Last sale was about .15 above market price for that week.

 

[cbcr]

well 1 would think that on a pre vac 45 sale calves that everything is done by the rules but it isnt.heck ive known of people getting them up a week before an putting the taggs in their ears an doing very little to the calves.an i know of traders that buy calves out of the sale barn,an put a group of pre vac 45 calves togather.

I will throw my :2cents: in here on this. We have 3 preconditoned sales a year. At the date that is 45 days prior to the sale, one of the reps of the sale (I am one of them) will visit each producer that has signed up calves and verify their number that they have weaned. The feed supplier has already ordered all the vac's and each producer gets both the vac's and ear tags from the same place. Each med is recorded by name, lot number, expiration date, and date given. Calf number is also recorded. Every calf in the sale has the same vac's and wormer.
We use the Range Ready plan from Boehringer Ingleheim and when all the working's have been done the info is sent to them and they send a verification certificate for each producer's calves. This goes with the calves when they are sold and shipped. Using their program they will back any problems that might occur.
Now there might be a crooked way around some of this but we know the calves are weaned because we have seen them. We know the vac's have been bought and used. Works for us, may not for everyone. Last sale was about .15 above market price for that week.

This is only a partial solution. One thing with this vac program is that information has been validated, and that is of value.

But there are other factors that can also be value-added: hormone free, genetics for carcass traits (some progrmas want only Angus, some want only Bristish cattle and others want cattle with Continental influence).

The information: we as cow/calf producers are out all of the expense to start these programs, RFID tags, vaccinations, etc. While it is true that doing so is just part of business, but when the cattle are sold at auction the information ends there. What about the next owner? or even the owner after that? Some of these value-added benefits should be enjoyed by every segment of the industry, but they are not.

I mentioned carcass traits; more and more cattle are being marketed on the grid, so carcass is important. But in the forum on bull selection everyone was looking more at the WW (weaning weight) EPD simply because more pounds should equal more money. Carcass traits weren't important. Part of the problem is the LACK of data flow both ways. Flowing from the cow/calf producer forward to slaughter and then fed back down from slaughter to the cow/calf producer. Then when a producer can see that if his cattle aren't yielding very well at slaughter, he can start selecting genetics to make those improvements. Or if a producer sees that his cattle yield really well, he can have buyers lining up to purchase his cattle. Another benefit is we can have solid data on bulls with days to finish which if animals can be fed our 5, 10, 15 or even 20 days sooner, what can that do for profits to a feedlot or feeder?

Another problem with some of these vac, PVP and QSA programs are that they are only at certain times. What if your cattle are ready this week but that sale isn't for another 3 weeks?

There has to be a better way to market cattle, add value and be able to move information up and down stream.