Veterinary Feed Directive 2017

[Caustic Burno]

Should the government regulate the food supply or not?

To some extent this is over reach.

is that a yes or a no?

No it should fall to the state not the feds.

 

[Kell-inKY]

State government is still government, you're splitting hairs.

So you are saying regulations are OK as long as they are state regulations? By your definition you are now a socialist.

 

[Caustic Burno]

State government is still government, you're splitting hairs.

So you are saying regulations are OK as long as they are state regulations? By your definition you are now a socialist.

No I am not as the USDA was founded under Lincoln as more destruction of the 10th amendment.

So you think that a USDA bureaucrat has an understanding how a small producers in pi$$ poor states like Ky Ms Al Ar etc,
operate and what added cost burden they create.
Keep living in the bubble the cattle industry is headed the way of chicken and pork
raised womb to tomb by a corporation in a production house.
You won't even be in the picture in 20 to 30 years.

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/no-rancher ... t-ain-t-so

 

[backhoeboogie]

State government is still government, you're splitting hairs.

So you are saying regulations are OK as long as they are state regulations? By your definition you are now a socialist.

No I am not as the USDA was founded under Lincoln as more destruction of the 10th amendment.

So you think that a USDA bureaucrat has an understanding how a small producers in pi$$ poor states like Ky Ms Al Ar etc,
operate and what added cost burden they create.
Keep living in the bubble the cattle industry is headed the way of chicken and pork
raised womb to tomb by a corporation in a production house.
You won't even be in the picture in 20 to 30 years.

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/no-rancher ... t-ain-t-so

The thing is, no one will see in those production houses. I suspect the big boys will be doing business as usual.

 

[Dave]

As much as I hate to see this happen it was going to be worse. There were two bills in congress dealing with antibiotic use in livestock. One of them, I believe the senate bill, would have required any and all antibiotics to be administered by a licensed vet. Had that bill passed you wouldn't be able to give a cow a shot of LA 200, the vet would have had to come out to do it for you. When the FDA came up with this rule the two bills in congress died. So as much as I hate to see the government do this it could have been much worse. I was in a local government meeting where a young gal who knew nothing about livestock came in pushing for support of those two bills. They were being pushed at a grassroots level all over the country by the antibiotics are bad crowd. And they were getting a lot of support in the urban areas. We are feeding our enemies and they know how to use the media and the government against us.

 

[TexasBred]

How is what Kell said a "socialist view"? No one said anything about "needing the government to take care of us."
I happen to agree, "feeding anything a constant dose of antibiotics is not normal."
Do we need more regulations? be nice no!
Do we need more conscientious livestock owners? Probabably.
Do I buy into the idea that "antibiotic fed beef, pork, or chicken is bad for our children"? Not likely.
But I do believe that antibiotics are being used irresponsibly by some, I have seen it.
And again, the government should not need to be involved. Producers should be regulating this.

Couldn't agree more. Although the veterinary society is behind all of his and has been for many years, feeding antibiotics continually to any animal is not a good practice. Most don't contain enough to get any real benefit anyway and animals build up an immunity to them. Treat the individual animal not the entire herd.

 

[Kell-inKY]

Caustic Burno,
I am sorry you don't understand my point, suffice it to say, don't go around calling me a socialist.

In a perfect world, everyone would self regulate, but we don't live in a perfect world. So what is the answer then? I don't want the government involved at all, but I certainly don't want to be eating beef that has been fed ground up other cattle. I don't know the perfect answer there. The reason we have regulations at all is because some idiot in the past thought it was OK to do such a thing, and they always say, don't worry, it's "safe", the government being the ABSOLUTE worse offender in this category.

People are just wondering why livestock are so sick you have to feed a constant dose of medicated feed? It's a sign of a bigger problem. Is that what we are saying, that these animal conditions are so confined and filthy that we have to constantly feed them antibiotics for them to live? Sounds real appetizing. Can't we just get back to normal? (yeah, I know, population, modern farming etc. etc.)

(I assume this is most likely aimed at those huge chicken and pig operations though, but I didn't read all the links).

 

[Caustic Burno]

Caustic Burno,
I am sorry you don't understand my point, suffice it to say, don't go around calling me a socialist.

In a perfect world, everyone would self regulate, but we don't live in a perfect world. So what is the answer then? I don't want the government involved at all, but I certainly don't want to be eating beef that has been fed ground up other cattle. I don't know the perfect answer there. The reason we have regulations at all is because some idiot in the past thought it was OK to do such a thing, and they always say, don't worry, it's "safe", the government being the ABSOLUTE worse offender in this category.

People are just wondering why livestock are so sick you have to feed a constant dose of medicated feed? It's a sign of a bigger problem. Is that what we are saying, that these animal conditions are so confined and filthy that we have to constantly feed them antibiotics for them to live? Sounds real appetizing. Can't we just get back to normal? (yeah, I know, population, modern farming etc. etc.)

(I assume this is most likely aimed at those huge chicken and pig operations though, but I didn't read all the links).

As a libertarian I see it as socialist view.
The government is pin pricking us to death from health care, energy to agriculture.
The state should regulate as our framers wrote from
animal health to environmental needs decided on by the voters of that state.
Washington under the guise of health, and environment is completely destroying this country.
We have hydro electric dams being blown for fish to swim upstream.
Coal being slowly outlawed by regulation our cheapest most abundant energy source.
Medical you are taxed for not having it or a government approved plan.
This list is endless. God help you if they find an Ivory Billed Woodpecker on your place.
If I see him first he is getting a load of number 6s ans stuffed in an armadillo hole.
When you can no longer afford to raise the cattle due to regulation what are you going to do ?
Row crop if you can get a pesticide/herbicide license sell off your property as you can no longer
pay the taxes with no production or Ag exemption.
I am not against food safety or animal health I against Federal intrusion.

 

[branguscowgirl]

I am not against food safety or animal health I against Federal intrusion.

CB I think that this is the bottom line for most of us!
But you surely have to see Kells point.....If farmers are practicing poor animal husbandry and abusing antibiotic use, (which we know happens) who and how are we going to stop it? Are you going to tell your neighbor to quit feeding continuous dewormer to his cattle because he is making resistant super worms that are affecting your cattle? Kind of the same thing with the over use of antibiotics affecting us all. When we need them, they are not going to work any longer. (And there is not a lot of new ones coming down the pike!)
You can not walk into a pharmacy and buy an antibiotic for your viral cold. Yet if they were available, some dumb azz would do it! Same in the cattle industry.

 

[branguscowgirl]

Do not get me wrong, I do not agree with taking our rights to the drugs away. I am only understanding why they are. And pizzed at the irresponsible management practices (of some) that have caused it to happen.

 

[Kell-inKY]

Are you going to tell your neighbor to quit feeding continuous dewormer to his cattle because he is making resistant super worms that are affecting your cattle? Kind of the same thing with the over use of antibiotics affecting us all. When we need them, they are not going to work any longer.

Libertarians believe that "Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins", if you truly are a Libertarian then you can understand what is going on here.

It sounds like it is the people who had to push to have something done, not the government. I find it hard to believe the big Pharma corporations let something like this pass?

branguscowgirl puts it in a way that is much easier to understand than my crude attempts.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Do not get me wrong, I do not agree with taking our rights to the drugs away. I am only understanding why they are. And pizzed at the irresponsible management practices (of some) that have caused it to happen.

The same thing has happened over and over. Dad used to buy rabies vaccine at the feed store. Innoculated all our dogs. I suppose some dog bit some kid and someone said it had been innoculated when it hadn't. I truly dunno. But I cannot buy such vaccines for my dog.

If I were a vet, I would want all the OTC meds taken away from consumers.

Corpo farms will have a vet on the payroll.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I am not against food safety or animal health I against Federal intrusion.

CB I think that this is the bottom line for most of us!
But you surely have to see Kells point.....If farmers are practicing poor animal husbandry and abusing antibiotic use, (which we know happens) who and how are we going to stop it? Are you going to tell your neighbor to quit feeding continuous dewormer to his cattle because he is making resistant super worms that are affecting your cattle? Kind of the same thing with the over use of antibiotics affecting us all. When we need them, they are not going to work any longer. (And there is not a lot of new ones coming down the pike!)
You can not walk into a pharmacy and buy an antibiotic for your viral cold. Yet if they were available, some dumb azz would do it! Same in the cattle industry.

See this is where we have a big disagreement.
What you do on your own property is your business and none of mine
or the Federal governments.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Do not get me wrong, I do not agree with taking our rights to the drugs away. I am only understanding why they are. And pizzed at the irresponsible management practices (of some) that have caused it to happen.

The same thing has happened over and over. Dad used to buy rabies vaccine at the feed store. Innoculated all our dogs. I suppose some dog bit some kid and someone said it had been innoculated when it hadn't. I truly dunno. But I cannot buy such vaccines for my dog.

If I were a vet, I would want all the OTC meds taken away from consumers.

Corpo farms will have a vet on the payroll.

And this is where we are headed with most of the people buying a ticket for the ride.

 

[Kell-inKY]

What you do on your own property is your business and none of mine
or the Federal governments.

I don't think you understand what Libertarian means?

It's when your animals (including drug resistant bacteria, worms etc.) LEAVE YOUR property and it becomes someone else's problem (everyone else's) . This includes feeding sick dead cows to other cows and then selling them to an unsuspecting public.

Do you think in Mose's time they let one tribe dump their toilets into the stream right before it went to another tribes where they used it for drinking water? By your reasoning, they did it on their property so tough luck to all those downstream. What I'm trying to say is that there is a role for government, a limited role, but a role nonetheless.

 

[Brute 23]

I have to agree with CB that we do not need the govt regulation applied to the whole industry. If there is enough demand from the consumer they can build an antibiotic free market and they can pay the premium for their meat to be treated the way they want.

As long as the consumer chooses to spend $1200 on an iPhone and cry about the cost of beef I say they get what they get. If they don't like it they are welcome to get in the game and raise cattle the way they want or pay a premium to get the the way they want.

The market should determine the standard... not the govt... especially a federal agency.

 

[Caustic Burno]

What you do on your own property is your business and none of mine
or the Federal governments.

I don't think you understand what Libertarian means?

It's when your animals (including drug resistant bacteria, worms etc.) LEAVE YOUR property and it becomes someone else's problem (everyone else's) . This includes feeding sick dead cows to other cows and then selling them to an unsuspecting public.

Do you think in Mose's time they let one tribe dump their toilets into the stream right before it went to another tribes where they used it for drinking water? By your reasoning, they did it on their property so tough luck to all those downstream. What I'm trying to say is that there is a role for government, a limited role, but a role nonetheless.

You got to be kidding.
Just look to Flint Mi for government intervention blind eye for political reasons.
Most cities in America today dump treated sewage into the drinking water river systems with a permit for x amount of raw.

 

[Kell-inKY]

I mean no offense, but this is getting way off topic.

Brute, I would agree with you 100% if it were about consumer choice, however:

From what I read, this is not about consumers wanting antibiotic free beef (or chicken etc.), this is about our overuse of antibiotics creating resistant strains. This is not some made up boogeyman, this is a real problem that needs addressing. If people would stop feeding this stuff on their own it would be great, but I have as much faith in that as people not going to the doctor and getting a prescription for a virus.

from the original article:

According to the Centers for Disease Control, every year in the U.S., at least 2 million people are infected by bacteria resistant to antibiotic treatment, and more than 20,000 people die from these infections. The directive was put in place to mandate judicious antibiotic use in livestock to reduce the risk of antibiotic resistant bacteria.

 

[Kell-inKY]

You got to be kidding.
Just look to Flint Mi for government intervention blind eye for political reasons.

What? so having NO government regulation would have fixed this? If you are so fired up about no government regulations, head on down to a third world country and get you a drink of their unregulated water.

What makes this topic bizarre is how I am having to play the devil's advocate, it's like opposite day for me regarding the government?

 

[Caustic Burno]

You got to be kidding.
Just look to Flint Mi for government intervention blind eye for political reasons.

What? so having NO government regulation would have fixed this? If you are so fired up about no government regulations, head on down to a third world country and get you a drink of their unregulated water.

What makes this topic bizarre is how I am having to play the devil's advocate, it's like opposite day for me regarding the government?

Again you have missed the mark on regulation I have no problem with state it is the Federal. Falls under the 10 th.
If Ky farmers and ranches want this program then it should be voted on to become Ky law by citizens of the state
represented so by their state in their legislative body. Now you have true representation of law and effects to the citizens
and economy of the state.
Not some Washington bureaucrat.