Value of Raising Alfalfa vs. Red Clover Mixes Today

[Stocker Steve]

I purchased some run down ground two years ago. The plan was to row crop one year to knock the weeds back and get the ph up - - then seed it down to a grazing alfalfa mix. Of course my initial cost estimates for raising fertility are way off the current price of inputs. The recommended 5 ton alfalfa top dress with lime, K, and boron this fall comes to $207 per acre... so I am not sure that alfalfa "the queen of forages" is still the most economical plan.

I am not going to mine out the soil by cutting grass hay like many of the neighbors. I do have one neighbor that plants a red clover mix (which reduces input costs) and puts it up as balage (since drying is a drawn out affair). It seems like we are going back to the way Grandpa farmed - - hay reed canary meadows and plant clover that can reseed itself on the high ground.

Have you put a pencil to cost per pound various legume/grass forage mixes with today' input costs?

 

[dun]

The only real advantage I see to ewdclover over alfalfa is the initial cost of establishment. Even with reseeding itself, the stand will gradually diminish. It also slows it's growth in the heat of the summer when alfalfa is really doing it's best. I'm referring to a monoculture of one or the other. Mixed with grass I think red clover would be better.

 

[bigbull338]

id plant clover on that place for 3 or 4yrs.that will build it up by putting nitrogen into the ground.an you can fert as you have money todo.an youll get some good clover hay or baleage.as you know it cost alot to maintain an grow an alalfa crop.

 

[dun]

id plant clover on that place for 3 or 4yrs.that will build it up by putting nitrogen into the ground.an you can fert as you have money todo.an youll get some good clover hay or baleage.as you know it cost alot to maintain an grow an alalfa crop.

If he was planning on haying it I agree alfalfa would take more maintennance, but since it's pasture and a grazing alfalfa the maintenance costs should be about nill

 

[Stocker Steve]

I think alfalfa still makes sense on knolls and slopes, but have you seen many situations where clover will out yield alfalfa and require less inputs?

 

[dun]

flatter ground.

What is this flatter ground stuff you're talking about? That must be anything with less then 30 degree angle to it

 

[novatech]

id plant clover on that place for 3 or 4yrs.that will build it up by putting nitrogen into the ground.an you can fert as you have money todo.an youll get some good clover hay or baleage.as you know it cost alot to maintain an grow an alalfa crop.

When you bale you take the nutrients right back out. You are not building the soil unless you allow it to go back into the soil as manure or plowed under.

 

[bigbull338]

here we go again with your destorying the land if you dont fertalize.weve been completely organic for 30yrs.an our hay meadows arnt hurt because of that i can assure you.we cut 60acs when the custom baler could get to it.an it made 183 5 by 6 bales.then there was 25acs that we didnt bother to cut because we didnt need it.that wouldve prolly made 50 bales.then we sold 40acs standing.an that made 125 5 by 6 bales.so in 1 cutting we wouldve made 375 5 by 6 bales in 1 cutting.an you tell me im ruining the land.now if you convert that to 4 by 5 bales your looking at 500 round bales.

 

[wstevenl]

I'm no expert, but it's well known that legumes put Nitrogen into the soil, from the air, without needing to be tilled in or left as green manure/mulch, whatever.

 

[dyates]

I'm no expert, but it's well known that legumes put Nitrogen into the soil, from the air, without needing to be tilled in or left as green manure/mulch, whatever.

And the grass that accompanies the clover will suck up that nitrogen faster than it is produced, leaving approximately zero in the soil. As said by another poster, the majority of nitrogen produced by legumes is hauled off the ground with the hay. Red clover will yield less than alfalfa, but will require the same amount of nutrients for a certain tonnage of hay produced. The only benefit I see to red clover is the fact that it will tolerate a lower pH and wetter soils when compared to alfalfa. Keep in mind that there is a stark difference between "tolerate" and "thrive".

 

[Stocker Steve]

We have a wide variety of soil types and drainage so I put put about 15% of the new seeding into a clover mix rather than an alfalfa mix. In hindsight I should have put more acres into clover. Alfalfa cost me over $100 per acre more to establish, needs to be sprayed for bugs in this area, and will be gone in a couple years if it is stressed by too much mosture.

Most folks never fertilize clover so it gets a bad rap for yield.

 

[Bluestem]

here we go again with your destroying the land if you don't fertilize.we've been completely organic for 30yrs.an our hay meadows aren't hurt because of that i can assure you.we cut 60acs when the custom baler could get to it.an it made 183 5 by 6 bales.then there was 25acs that we didn't bother to cut because we didn't need it.that would've prolly made 50 bales.then we sold 40acs standing.an that made 125 5 by 6 bales.so in 1 cutting we would've made 375 5 by 6 bales in 1 cutting.an you tell me I'm ruining the land.now if you convert that to 4 by 5 bales your looking at 500 round bales.

bigbull- How are you managing the land to keep your production up?

 

[ALX.]

bigbull, or anyone, could you guess me a tons per acre on what bigbull is getting?

Anything harvested by machine here is alfalfa based. Clover cannot compete yield/protein wise regardless of whether it is fertilized.

There are deep rooting clovers and alfalfas, creeping alfalfa and clovers more suitable for pasture, drought tolerant, bug tolerant and on and on. So one variety of one may pound heck out of another in different soil or climatic conditions.

Stocker, you looked at some of the new RC varieties, I see a lot of potential in them for low/wet land.
Palatability is way up even in late harvest.

 

[bigbull338]

we arnt doing anything special such as liming or ferting.we just have winter pasture planted on 80ac meadow.an we are getting timely rains.plus we only take 1 cutting a year from the 100acs or so.40acs of it is basically native grass meadow.so we arnt abusing the land.some1 asked for the total tons 130 tons off 60acs is 4000lbs to an ac.now 40acs native made 82 tons of hay.thats 4100lbs grass to the ac.now if you convert that 4 by 5s thats 5 bales to the ac.we only feed 115 days.we feed 80hd more or less 1 to 1.5 round bales pre cow pre yr.but the cows are running on about 150acs.

 

[wstevenl]

Bigbull,
Do you rotationally graze? on the hay fields also or are the cattle "running" on separate pasture? My point is, are you adding manure to those hayfields with the cows? or do they just site untouched until you cut hay again next year?

 

[bigbull338]

the cows dont graze on the 80ac meadow unless they break into it.the other meadow is down in the bottom.an nothing grazes it either.i forgot to say that theres 40acs of pure coastal meadow.it doesnt have winter grass on it.they wont be cut angain till next june an july.with the 200 rolls we kept i could feed 125 cows with ease.unless it got real cold an wet.

 

[ALX.]

the cows dont graze on the 80ac meadow unless they break into it.the other meadow is down in the bottom.an nothing grazes it either.i forgot to say that theres 40acs of pure coastal meadow.it doesnt have winter grass on it.they wont be cut angain till next june an july.with the 200 rolls we kept i could feed 125 cows with ease.unless it got real cold an wet.

side steppin?

how many cows pers acre?

how many you got?

You took a good thread off on some nutbar organic tangent.

Soil too acidic , burnt out for alfalfa?

 

[bigbull338]

no i did not take it off on some nut bar organic tanget.theres a few people that question the way i manage a farm.an if you could learn to read you would see where i said 80 cows an calves run on 150acs pasture more or less year round.i can buttheads with people like you all day long.but in the end youll get the thread locked an not me.an i also told you we feed about 1.25 1500lb bales a day during our winter an feed hay 120 days a yr.ill take you 1 further ive spent my life running cattle.never have i had an off farm job.98% of the people here have off farm jobs.an mess with cows on the side.the remaining 2% are retired or fulltime cattlemen.further more most of yall start going through a drought you sell your cows fast.you dont suck it up an buy hay because its to high.

 

[novatech]

I'm no expert, but it's well known that legumes put Nitrogen into the soil, from the air, without needing to be tilled in or left as green manure/mulch, whatever.

You need to read this;
http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_a/a-129.pdf
There are also a few thousand other web sites to support this.
There are also a couple of other elements besides nitrogen that legumes need to grow. If the forage is removed as hay N, P, and K go with it. Nature can only provide so much. If you do not put something back you are robing the soil, wither it be chemically or organically.Slowly but surely you will deplete the soil.

 

[Weaver]

I don't know for sure what the alfalfa yeilds are for this year in the area, but so we have a 30 acre field of red clover and so far this year have baled 3100 square bales and 246 4x5 round bales off it. Frost seeded it into some wheat in early march of 2007 and baled 163 round bales off it last fall. So don't discount red clover because of the theory of small yields.