Using bulls of the past

[novatech]

Development of highly productive inbred lines of domestic livestock is possible. To date, however, such attempts have met with little apparent success. Although occasional high performance animals are produced, inbreeding generally results in an overall reduction in performance. This reduction is manifested in many ways. The most obvious effects of inbreeding are poorer reproductive efficiency including higher mortality rates, lower growth rates and a higher frequency of hereditary abnormalities. This has been shown by numerous studies with cattle, horses, sheep, swine and laboratory animals.

Taken out of context from http://extension.missouri.edu/xplor/agg ... g02911.htm

 

[Brandonm2]

Development of highly productive inbred lines of domestic livestock is possible. To date, however, such attempts have met with little apparent success. Although occasional high performance animals are produced, inbreeding generally results in an overall reduction in performance. This reduction is manifested in many ways. The most obvious effects of inbreeding are poorer reproductive efficiency including higher mortality rates, lower growth rates and a higher frequency of hereditary abnormalities. This has been shown by numerous studies with cattle, horses, sheep, swine and laboratory animals.

Taken out of context from http://extension.missouri.edu/xplor/agg ... g02911.htm

Yet almost all commercial hog and poultry in the U.S. today are the result of a pyramidal top down breeding system where heavily inbred 40+++ year old nucleus lines are at the top of the pyramids. Then THERE is Holsteins where single trait selection for 80++ years has GREATLY reduced the genetic diversity to the point that the whole breed boarders on being "inbred".

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

greenwillowhereford II wrote:
I communicated with an outfit from Minnesota..I believe it was Nelson Polled Herefords, who have polled Lamplighters and Advance Dominos. The had just a few units of semen on one of the old Lamplighter bulls,(I'll have to look up his name) and they got a son, and now are using a grandson. A couple of other breeders and I were discussing going together and buying the grandson or great grandson, but the deal fell through when the other two discovered that the bulls in question were both scurred. I wound up buying half share in FGR Reese Hudson locally.

The performance of these Lamplighter bulls was all you could ask for, 700# weaning range.


Interesting!

I looked them up and found this bull:

NPH PRESIDENT LAMPLIGHTER 257 (P42260351)

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 24582F202E

He's a 2002 model from a sire who was born in 1952!

I noticed that they are also using John Alexander's Havre King Domino bull.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 5859272E2D

I've talked with John on another board in the past and knew he was getting some growthy cattle out of his bull.

George

In terms of old lines, Nelson is using the same genetics that I am. We both bought our Lamplighters fro Eugene Henkel in Fairbury, NE. Henkel still has semen on Adv Mod Lamp 57, the bull born in 1952. Last year, I bought a half interest in Henkel's herd bull, EEH Lamplighter 21:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C5B2224272F2E&9=5B5D5D

I also bought the bull's full sister and some others. The 21st is very inbred, and his calves do not grow when bred to other Lamplighters. They wean at about 325 lbs when modern genetics wean at around 550 for me.

When outcrossed to modern Herefords, some of the calves seem to grow closer to modern genetics, but with the thickness of the 21st. My first outcross calves were born this Fall, so I am still learning. I have 8 outcross calves on the ground now, and I'll have about 30 this Spring.

Regarding the history of AI, Doc Easely and the Turn Ranch, I'd suggest reading "The Turner Ranch" by Stewart. Prior to the 70's, semen was stored in ampules. Back in the 50's, semen was stored in "magic wands." I don't remember how the semen on the 57th is stored. Much of what I am using is in ampules with either egg or milk.
[/url]

Nelson AIed to genetics that included some horned bloodlines, and if I remember correctly, were derived from his big polled Advance Domino bull. This may account for the higher growth due to the outcross.

I believe that Richard Day of Roff, OK has more successfully put performance into old-time, line-bred genetics than anyone else I know of. In my opinion, he may have the best all-round cowherd in the country, about 80 head. Most of his customers are commercial breeders, and his bulls are well accepted among them. They certainly sell quickly every year. Did any of you Hereford breeders see his full page color ad in the Hereford World July issue? The bull featured was a half brother to my original herd sire, from whom I have a 2007 model heifer replacement. The bull in the ad was I believe a 5.5 frame, 2,300#. It is not uncommon for a Day cow to wean a 600# or better calf at 15 years of age.

 

[Ned Jr.]

Not very many bulls of the past I'd go back to. HH ADVANCE 872X maybe but that's about it. I simply feel we've made progress. When I think of some of the crap I grew up with, bad udders, slow growers, cancer eyes, etc I don't want to go back.

I suppose I should apologise before I say what I'm about to. I was always raised not to say anything if I didn't have something good to say but here it goes anyway.

I did see Richard Day's ad in the July Hereford World and the first thing that came to my mind when I looked at that bull was cancer eye. Hereford cattle have gotten such a bad rep from bad eye's and udders in the past I hate to see cattle that will only add to the problem. I'm glad to hear his cows have good udders but I bet that bull throws cancer eyes. I read the letter to the editor Day had in Hereford America and know by it he doesn't like herefords with pigment but I think the best thing he could do would be to intoduce a bull like HH ADVANCE 0024K to his herd.

 

[novatech]

Development of highly productive inbred lines of domestic livestock is possible. To date, however, such attempts have met with little apparent success. Although occasional high performance animals are produced, inbreeding generally results in an overall reduction in performance. This reduction is manifested in many ways. The most obvious effects of inbreeding are poorer reproductive efficiency including higher mortality rates, lower growth rates and a higher frequency of hereditary abnormalities. This has been shown by numerous studies with cattle, horses, sheep, swine and laboratory animals.

Taken out of context from http://extension.missouri.edu/xplor/agg ... g02911.htm

I like to look at both sides of the picture. There is always a down side to look at and I would like to know what they are before diving in head first.
Just about every day I devote some time to studing pedagrees.
Yesterday I counted up one particular bull 20 times in the pedagree of one of my cows. That goes back to the introduction of the breed. Trying to figure how much line breeding that would be would take a really good mathamatician.
So I am in favor of line breeding as long as long as people that know what they are doing are the ones doing it. Me, I,m still learning but making plans.

Yet almost all commercial hog and poultry in the U.S. today are the result of a pyramidal top down breeding system where heavily inbred 40+++ year old nucleus lines are at the top of the pyramids. Then THERE is Holsteins where single trait selection for 80++ years has GREATLY reduced the genetic diversity to the point that the whole breed boarders on being "inbred".

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Not very many bulls of the past I'd go back to. HH ADVANCE 872X maybe but that's about it. I simply feel we've made progress. When I think of some of the crap I grew up with, bad udders, slow growers, cancer eyes, etc I don't want to go back.

I suppose I should apologise before I say what I'm about to. I was always raised not to say anything if I didn't have something good to say but here it goes anyway.

I did see Richard Day's ad in the July Hereford World and the first thing that came to my mind when I looked at that bull was cancer eye. Hereford cattle have gotten such a bad rep from bad eye's and udders in the past I hate to see cattle that will only add to the problem. I'm glad to hear his cows have good udders but I bet that bull throws cancer eyes. I read the letter to the editor Day had in Hereford America and know by it he doesn't like herefords with pigment but I think the best thing he could do would be to intoduce a bull like HH ADVANCE 0024K to his herd.

I'm hoping that Richard will soon speak for himself on this forum. If there is anything he will not tolerate it is cancer eye, and he thinks that it is primarily a genetic weakness. I have not known of one cancer eye on his place in the several years I have known him. I have never had cancer eye using his genetics, nor has anyone else using them that I am aware of. He has culled rigorously against cancer eye just as he has agains bad udders and poor feet etc. I believe he is doing something right. You don't get repeat customers buying 15-30 bulls at a time when you have problems with cancer eye. He has discussed the HA letter with me at length, and I'm afraid most folks took it out of context. He has some cattle that are not even full-maned, and have eyeliner pigment. It is just obvious that some so-called Herefords have the same color patterns as some red-baldie crossbreds.

Not trying to be out of sorts with you, but it almost makes me smile when I think of how intolerant Richard is toward eye problems.

 

[JHH]

[/quote]

Nelson AIed to genetics that included some horned bloodlines, and if I remember correctly, were derived from his big polled Advance Domino bull. This may account for the higher growth due to the outcross.

I believe that Richard Day of Roff, OK has more successfully put performance into old-time, line-bred genetics than anyone else I know of. In my opinion, he may have the best all-round cowherd in the country, about 80 head. Most of his customers are commercial breeders, and his bulls are well accepted among them. They certainly sell quickly every year. Did any of you Hereford breeders see his full page color ad in the Hereford World July issue? The bull featured was a half brother to my original herd sire, from whom I have a 2007 model heifer replacement. The bull in the ad was I believe a 5.5 frame, 2,300#. It is not uncommon for a Day cow to wean a 600# or better calf at 15 years of age.[/quote]

I seen the add and called him to see if he had collected that bull and as of Aug he had not and did not plan to. I think he was sold at the time I called. I Have not personally seen his herd but if he is getting 15 years to 16 years out of cows they are lasting longer than the normal cows around here anyway.
He took my name and # and is supposed to call If he gets another bull calf from that bulls dam. She was bred the same way again.

What ever happened to bulls that lasted 10 years? We had one that did when I was a kid. No one here keeps one past about 5 .

If they had cancer eye they would never make 15 years. Or if they did and got cancer eye at 15 then they have more than done their job at your ranch or farm in my opinion. But I am fairly new to this and Have alot to learn. JHH

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

The sire of the bull in the ad is still in service at 12 years, but he thinks this will be his last year. I have a Flying G cow who was sired by a bull who lasted to 15. We have saved a daughter out of her which was sired by a son of her paternal half sister. He was a half brother to my current sire. Their sire is going strong at 9 or 10 right now.

 

[JHH]

The sire of the bull in the ad is still in service at 12 years, but he thinks this will be his last year. I have a Flying G cow who was sired by a bull who lasted to 15. We have saved a daughter out of her which was sired by a son of her paternal half sister. He was a half brother to my current sire. Their sire is going strong at 9 or 10 right now.

That is what more herds need cows that will produce to 15 and still do a good job.

By the way glad to see you back. JHH

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

The sire of the bull in the ad is still in service at 12 years, but he thinks this will be his last year. I have a Flying G cow who was sired by a bull who lasted to 15. We have saved a daughter out of her which was sired by a son of her paternal half sister. He was a half brother to my current sire. Their sire is going strong at 9 or 10 right now.

That is what more herds need cows that will produce to 15 and still do a good job.

By the way glad to see you back. JHH

Thanks.

 

[Ned Jr.]

I'm hoping that Richard will soon speak for himself on this forum. If there is anything he will not tolerate it is cancer eye, and he thinks that it is primarily a genetic weakness. I have not known of one cancer eye on his place in the several years I have known him. I have never had cancer eye using his genetics, nor has anyone else using them that I am aware of. He has culled rigorously against cancer eye just as he has agains bad udders and poor feet etc. I believe he is doing something right. You don't get repeat customers buying 15-30 bulls at a time when you have problems with cancer eye. He has discussed the HA letter with me at length, and I'm afraid most folks took it out of context. He has some cattle that are not even full-maned, and have eyeliner pigment. It is just obvious that some so-called Herefords have the same color patterns as some red-baldie crossbreds.
Not trying to be out of sorts with you, but it almost makes me smile when I think of how intolerant Richard is toward eye problems.

If all that's true then that's great. The bulls eye does look sore to me in the picture. I do realise cancer eye has more to do with genetics than with pigment. When you have the snow we do pigment is nice to have around the eyes and even on the udders. It's harder to get on udders. I know of breeders that have worked hard to get pigment and it grips me when people just pass them off as crossbred after the years it took. Take a trip threw the Hereford Association office and look at the old paintings and portraits. Herefords had lots of pigment until breeders bred it out thinking mellow yellow was better. It's not impossible to bring it back without foul play.

Sorry for getting off the main subject.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

The bull I owned who was a half brother had more pigment than the one in HW, and was partially red necked. He was the most trouble free bull I ever have owned up to this point. Never had a case of foot rot, pinkeye, or so far as I could tell ever acted ill.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Talked to Richard on the way home from work. The bull that was in HW is now 8. His sire is 12, and dam 16-17. Steven Polledstadt had him collected this year. He produced 800 units, and since they only wanted 500, they threw the rest away. They are in the process of the DNA work. He thinks it will be $50 per certificate.

 

[CPL]

For those of you who were around, what is your opinion on OR Dom 549 F243?

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

For those of you who were around, what is your opinion on OR Dom 549 F243?

I've seen him in old Polled Hereford Worlds. He is still regarded highly by some for his daughters. My brother had a daughter of Boyd Victor 6090, and I believe F243 was his sire. She was a heavy milker, but had a less than perfect udder. She weaned a 500# heifer by ANL Quest, a 650# bull by Day Rupert Tone 092, and a 700# bull by WBL Chief 20F.

From what I know, he is more desirable than many of his era in a pedigree.

 

[1848]

For those of you who were around, what is your opinion on OR Dom 549 F243?

Scurred. Great daughters. A few good sons.

 

[1848]

Lot of good opinions here. I think some of the bulls of the past have plenty of merit, and have not seen the watering down of the genetic pool as in some of the newer bulls. Breeders also didn't play the numbers game "as much" back then, so the bulls that have good EPD numbers and accuracies probably have more legitimacy then bulls of today. At the same time, many of the older bulls that made a name for themselves did it in the show ring (like many of the newer popular bulls) with only that objective in mind, so they may be terrible for replacement stock. The phenotype (frame and thickness) was a rollercoaster in the 70's 80's and into the 90's as the breed was following market trends and trying to keep up with the new continental breeds. It just goes back to studying the individual animal and determining what it can bring to your program. I like to look deep into a bulls pedigree to see what that animals brings and how the line has performed. There are some older bulls that despite them being popular in the show ring also held their own in the pasture.

Yes, we would hope the genetics have progressively gotten better, but some programs have lost allot of the ground they had made by chasing fads through the years. To believe older bulls are of no value is to also believe a newer bull is already proven when it hits the ground.....big mistake.

 

[1848]

The sire of the bull in the ad is still in service at 12 years, but he thinks this will be his last year. I have a Flying G cow who was sired by a bull who lasted to 15. We have saved a daughter out of her which was sired by a son of her paternal half sister. He was a half brother to my current sire. Their sire is going strong at 9 or 10 right now.

That is what more herds need cows that will produce to 15 and still do a good job.

By the way glad to see you back. JHH

Thanks.

So it is you?

 

[Ziggy Pop]

Looks like you can still buy some F243 semen from Jim Reed for $75 a straw. I remember him putting out a lot of solid females in the early 80's. Tended to throw a lot of white and a few scurs. EB Gee Ranch used him a lot as did CMR and a few others in the mid-South area.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

The sire of the bull in the ad is still in service at 12 years, but he thinks this will be his last year. I have a Flying G cow who was sired by a bull who lasted to 15. We have saved a daughter out of her which was sired by a son of her paternal half sister. He was a half brother to my current sire. Their sire is going strong at 9 or 10 right now.

That is what more herds need cows that will produce to 15 and still do a good job.

By the way glad to see you back. JHH

Thanks.

So it is you?

Yes.