Using bulls of the past

[Brandonm2]

One of the problems is alot of today breeders are really just cattle dealers. I was looking at the Grandview web site when they had their "Granveiw Genetics" sale a few weeks back. Looking at their list of donors, only two of them had their prefix, and from what I remember, neither the sire or dam of those two donors was from their breeding program, Starlake's got to be almost the same way. How can you get consistancy and uniformity, if all your breeding stock comes from someone else's herds. Its not like they will buy a bunch of cows from one breeder, they will buy one here one there.

Here is an extreme example of what you are talking about. This is from a sale book this past spring I randomly pulled off of my shelf. This is a ~new outfit having their second sale. I went in and listed all the sires represented AND all the maternal grand sires represented.

65 lots and 141 animals

Sires ..........Maternal Grand Sires
Bon View New Design 208 ...........BR Midland
Woodhill Foresight ...........Bon View Bando 598
GAR Integrity ............Bon View New Design 1407
Papa Forte 1921 ............KG Dakota
Rito 1I2 of 2356 Rito 6I6 ...........GAR Expectation 4915
BC Marathon 7022 ............N Bar Emulation EXT
Bon View New Design 1407 ............B/R New Design 036
GAR Predestined ............Twin Valley Precision E161
GAR Retail Product ............GAR Precision 1680
B/R New Design 036 ............CA Future Direction 5321
GAR Precision 1680 ............DHD Traveler 6807
CA Future Direction 5321 ...........B/R New Design 323
Mytty In Focus ...........Conneally Leadtime
Quaker Hill Objective 3J15 ..........Paramount Ambush 2172
SAV 8180 Traveler 004 ..........Rockn D Ambush 1531
BC 7022 Raven 7965 ..........GAR Grid Maker
B/R New Dimension 7127 ..........Skarship Saratoga
Rito 2V1 of 2536 1407 ..........Bon View New Design 208
Wulfs EXT 6106 ..........B/R Sleep Easy 533
Twin Valley Precision E161 ..........Traveler 124 GDAR
Sugar Loaf Direct Hit 3281 ..........B/R New Frontier 095
Lemmon Newsline C804 ..........GAR Retail Product
B/R New Frontier 095 ..........Schoenes Fix It 826
Rito 2 878 of 2536 BVND 878 ..........RR 9440 Scotch Cap 1483
SAF 598 Bando 5175 ..........GAR Expectation 4915
Leachman Right Time ..........SAF Fame
N Bar Emulation EXT ..........Krugerrand of Donamere 49
WAR Alliance 9126 6006 ..........SAF Focus of ER
Hyline Right Time 338 ..........Sitz Alliance 6595
KCF Bennett Coalition SCC ..........AAR New Trend
SCAF 110 Rita 8G21 6I6 ..........GDAR Traveler 71
Riverbend Mile High 3718 ..........Connealy Forefront
B/R New Frontier 095 ..........Bon View New Design 878
GAR Grid Maker ..........Rito 4TR2 of OFB1 RRT
Sugar Loaf Direct Hit N021 ..........Basin Rainmaker 814Z
Boyd New Day 8005 ..........Ideal 1418 of 8103 4286
GAR Expectation 4915
SAF Focus of ER
SAF Fame
BT Direction 65D
Connealy Forefront
Bon View New Design 878

They are pretty much just multiplying the progeny of AI sires.

Don't ask me WHY I can't get two columns too appear seperated by spaces, but in their sale 43 AI sires sired everything and 37 AI sires (many of them in column 1) sired all the dams of the lots.

 

[rocket2222]

One of the problems is alot of today breeders are really just cattle dealers. I was looking at the Grandview web site when they had their "Granveiw Genetics" sale a few weeks back. Looking at their list of donors, only two of them had their prefix, and from what I remember, neither the sire or dam of those two donors was from their breeding program, Starlake's got to be almost the same way. How can you get consistancy and uniformity, if all your breeding stock comes from someone else's herds. Its not like they will buy a bunch of cows from one breeder, they will buy one here one there.

Here is an extreme example of what you are talking about. This is from a sale book this past spring I randomly pulled off of my shelf. This is a ~new outfit having their second sale. I went in and listed all the sires represented AND all the maternal grand sires represented.

65 lots and 141 animals

Sires Maternal Grand Sires
Bon View New Design 208 BR Midland
Woodhill Foresight Bon View Bando 598
GAR Integrity Bon View New Design 1407
Papa Forte 1921 KG Dakota
Rito 1I2 of 2356 Rito 6I6 GAR Expectation 4915
BC Marathon 7022 N Bar Emulation EXT
Bon View New Design 1407 B/R New Design 036
GAR Predestined Twin Valley Precision E161
GAR Retail Product GAR Precision 1680
B/R New Design 036 CA Future Direction 5321
GAR Precision 1680 DHD Traveler 6807
CA Future Direction 5321 B/R New Design 323
Mytty In Focus Conneally Leadtime
Quaker Hill Objective 3J15 Paramount Ambush 2172
SAV 8180 Traveler 004 Rockn D Ambush 1531
BC 7022 Raven 7965 GAR Grid Maker
B/R New Dimension 7127 Skarship Saratoga
Rito 2V1 of 2536 1407 Bon View New Design 208
Wulfs EXT 6106 B/R Sleep Easy 533
Twin Valley Precision E161 Traveler 124 GDAR
Sugar Loaf Direct Hit 3281 B/R New Frontier 095
Lemmon Newsline C804 GAR Retail Product
B/R New Frontier 095 Schoenes Fix It 826
Rito 2 878 of 2536 BVND 878 RR 9440 Scotch Cap 1483
SAF 598 Bando 5175 GAR Expectation 4915
Leachman Right Time SAF Fame
N Bar Emulation EXT Krugerrand of Donamere 49
WAR Alliance 9126 6006 SAF Focus of ER
Hyline Right Time 338 Sitz Alliance 6595
KCF Bennett Coalition SCC AAR New Trend
SCAF 110 Rita 8G21 6I6 GDAR Traveler 71
Riverbend Mile High 3718 Connealy Forefront
B/R New Frontier 095 Bon View New Design 878
GAR Grid Maker Rito 4TR2 of OFB1 RRT
Sugar Loaf Direct Hit N021 Basin Rainmaker 814Z
Boyd New Day 8005 Ideal 1418 of 8103 4286
GAR Expectation 4915
SAF Focus of ER
SAF Fame
BT Direction 65D
Connealy Forefront
Bon View New Design 878

They are pretty much just multiplying the progeny of AI sires.

Don't ask me WHY I can't get two columns too appear seperated by spaces, but in their sale 43 AI sires sired everything and 37 AI sires (many of them in column 1) sired all the dams of the lots.

Its pretty obvious here, that they are randomly selecting sires in a outcross program to maximize hybrid-vigor

 

[leeshy]

One of the problems is alot of today breeders are really just cattle dealers. I was looking at the Grandview web site when they had their "Granveiw Genetics" sale a few weeks back. Looking at their list of donors, only two of them had their prefix, and from what I remember, neither the sire or dam of those two donors was from their breeding program, Starlake's got to be almost the same way. How can you get consistancy and uniformity, if all your breeding stock comes from someone else's herds. Its not like they will buy a bunch of cows from one breeder, they will buy one here one there.

Definitely true. Look through some of these catalogs. Not to pick on Heritage Cattle Company, but their recent sale practically has no(might be a couple that have Dams) Heritage bred females back in the pedigree. I don't see how these cattle could be very predictable...

One of the reason why Hearitage has no dams with their prefixs on is because they bought their first cattle in the fall of 2004. They are new breeders.

 

[Herefords.US]

One of the reason why Hearitage has no dams with their prefixs on is because they bought their first cattle in the fall of 2004. They are new breeders.

CPL's post prompted me to go look at their web-site/catalog. I thought they were new. It looks like they've got a good start in both breeds and are taking the fast track.

The Reload bull's calves do show a lot of promise.

George

 

[smnherf]

wish I could find some DH Yampa Dominator semen today, Brian. It'd certainly be a lot better than some of this crap some people are selling.

I agree. I still have 10 units in my tank that I plan on using in the next year or twoon some of my better cow families.

Have you talked to Duncans about semen on Yampa Dominator? I think the last I heard they still had some, but don't know how much they want for it.

I also would to hear peoples opininion on M TJ Banner Impact. I still have some semen on him too.

Thanks

Brian

 

[dun]

Since there are so many Hereford breeders I'll try one more time. Does anyone have semen from KCF Bennett 517 E153?

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

I communicated with an outfit from Minnesota..I believe it was Nelson Polled Herefords, who have polled Lamplighters and Advance Dominos. The had just a few units of semen on one of the old Lamplighter bulls,(I'll have to look up his name) and they got a son, and now are using a grandson. A couple of other breeders and I were discussing going together and buying the grandson or great grandson, but the deal fell through when the other two discovered that the bulls in question were both scurred. I wound up buying half share in FGR Reese Hudson locally.

The performance of these Lamplighter bulls was all you could ask for, 700# weaning range.

 

[KNERSIE]

I communicated with an outfit from Minnesota..I believe it was Nelson Polled Herefords, who have polled Lamplighters and Advance Dominos. The had just a few units of semen on one of the old Lamplighter bulls,(I'll have to look up his name) and they got a son, and now are using a grandson. A couple of other breeders and I were discussing going together and buying the grandson or great grandson, but the deal fell through when the other two discovered that the bulls in question were both scurred. I wound up buying half share in FGR Reese Hudson locally.

The performance of these Lamplighter bulls was all you could ask for, 700# weaning range.

Thats very interesting, I expected weaning weights to be much lower, how big are they? In the Jim Lents range or more towards a frame 5?

 

[Herefords.US]

I communicated with an outfit from Minnesota..I believe it was Nelson Polled Herefords, who have polled Lamplighters and Advance Dominos. The had just a few units of semen on one of the old Lamplighter bulls,(I'll have to look up his name) and they got a son, and now are using a grandson. A couple of other breeders and I were discussing going together and buying the grandson or great grandson, but the deal fell through when the other two discovered that the bulls in question were both scurred. I wound up buying half share in FGR Reese Hudson locally.

The performance of these Lamplighter bulls was all you could ask for, 700# weaning range.

Interesting!

I looked them up and found this bull:

NPH PRESIDENT LAMPLIGHTER 257 (P42260351)

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C5924582F202E

He's a 2002 model from a sire who was born in 1952!

I noticed that they are also using John Alexander's Havre King Domino bull.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B595B5A5859272E2D

I've talked with John on another board in the past and knew he was getting some growthy cattle out of his bull.

George

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

I communicated with an outfit from Minnesota..I believe it was Nelson Polled Herefords, who have polled Lamplighters and Advance Dominos. The had just a few units of semen on one of the old Lamplighter bulls,(I'll have to look up his name) and they got a son, and now are using a grandson. A couple of other breeders and I were discussing going together and buying the grandson or great grandson, but the deal fell through when the other two discovered that the bulls in question were both scurred. I wound up buying half share in FGR Reese Hudson locally.

The performance of these Lamplighter bulls was all you could ask for, 700# weaning range.

Thats very interesting, I expected weaning weights to be much lower, how big are they? In the Jim Lents range or more towards a frame 5?

You have to remember that the further north you go the larger the same genetics will be when mature. The best I recall was 5-6 range.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

I communicated with an outfit from Minnesota..I believe it was Nelson Polled Herefords, who have polled Lamplighters and Advance Dominos. The had just a few units of semen on one of the old Lamplighter bulls,(I'll have to look up his name) and they got a son, and now are using a grandson. A couple of other breeders and I were discussing going together and buying the grandson or great grandson, but the deal fell through when the other two discovered that the bulls in question were both scurred. I wound up buying half share in FGR Reese Hudson locally.

The performance of these Lamplighter bulls was all you could ask for, 700# weaning range.

Interesting!

I looked them up and found this bull:

NPH PRESIDENT LAMPLIGHTER 257 (P42260351)

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C5924582F202E

He's a 2002 model from a sire who was born in 1952!

I noticed that they are also using John Alexander's Havre King Domino bull.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B595B5A5859272E2D

I've talked with John on another board in the past and knew he was getting some growthy cattle out of his bull.

George

I believe the bulls I was looking at were the son and grandson of 257, one of them being 457?

 

[iowahawkeyes]

When did semen collecting and freezing start? (I don't feel like researching it)

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

When did semen collecting and freezing start? (I don't feel like researching it)

Doc Easley, staff vet for the famed Turner Ranch was one of the pioneers. This grand old gentleman is still living in Sulphur, OK, and I have spoken to him two or three times via telephone. A good friend, Richard Day, still raises Hazlett/Turner Ranch cattle, and I met Doc through him. Having said that, I can't give you a year, but we must suppose it was at least as early as the fifties. Back then it wasn't straws but I believe ampules?

 

[leeshy]

When did semen collecting and freezing start? (I don't feel like researching it)

Doc Easley, staff vet for the famed Turner Ranch was one of the pioneers. This grand old gentleman is still living in Sulphur, OK, and I have spoken to him two or three times via telephone. A good friend, Richard Day, still raises Hazlett/Turner Ranch cattle, and I met Doc through him. Having said that, I can't give you a year, but we must suppose it was at least as early as the fifties. Back then it wasn't straws but I believe ampules?

Does anybody remember a bull by the name of Predominant 25 U?

 

[KNERSIE]

When did semen collecting and freezing start? (I don't feel like researching it)

Doc Easley, staff vet for the famed Turner Ranch was one of the pioneers. This grand old gentleman is still living in Sulphur, OK, and I have spoken to him two or three times via telephone. A good friend, Richard Day, still raises Hazlett/Turner Ranch cattle, and I met Doc through him. Having said that, I can't give you a year, but we must suppose it was at least as early as the fifties. Back then it wasn't straws but I believe ampules?

if I remember correctly it was earlier than the fifties, or atleast the late forties. After WW2 the use of bulls was prohibited and only AI to certain approved bulls was allowed in Germany to rebuild the national cattle herd. That would make my guess it was already being used in the forties.

 

[redfornow]

When did semen collecting and freezing start? (I don't feel like researching it)

Doc Easley, staff vet for the famed Turner Ranch was one of the pioneers. This grand old gentleman is still living in Sulphur, OK, and I have spoken to him two or three times via telephone. A good friend, Richard Day, still raises Hazlett/Turner Ranch cattle, and I met Doc through him. Having said that, I can't give you a year, but we must suppose it was at least as early as the fifties. Back then it wasn't straws but I believe ampules?

if I remember correctly it was earlier than the fifties, or atleast the late forties. After WW2 the use of bulls was prohibited and only AI to certain approved bulls was allowed in Germany to rebuild the national cattle herd. That would make my guess it was already being used in the forties.

My history is poor in that area.
Why would bulls be prohibited?
Thanks

 

[KNERSIE]

When did semen collecting and freezing start? (I don't feel like researching it)

Doc Easley, staff vet for the famed Turner Ranch was one of the pioneers. This grand old gentleman is still living in Sulphur, OK, and I have spoken to him two or three times via telephone. A good friend, Richard Day, still raises Hazlett/Turner Ranch cattle, and I met Doc through him. Having said that, I can't give you a year, but we must suppose it was at least as early as the fifties. Back then it wasn't straws but I believe ampules?

if I remember correctly it was earlier than the fifties, or atleast the late forties. After WW2 the use of bulls was prohibited and only AI to certain approved bulls was allowed in Germany to rebuild the national cattle herd. That would make my guess it was already being used in the forties.

My history is poor in that area.
Why would bulls be prohibited?
Thanks

after the war the national cattle herd were almost slaughtered out because the lack of productive agriculture to provide food for the German nation and during the last years of the war to provide rations for the military.

They needed to rebuild and the use of inferior bulls was avoided by forcing people to AI to aproved sires.

 

[KNERSIE]

When did semen collecting and freezing start? (I don't feel like researching it)

Doc Easley, staff vet for the famed Turner Ranch was one of the pioneers. This grand old gentleman is still living in Sulphur, OK, and I have spoken to him two or three times via telephone. A good friend, Richard Day, still raises Hazlett/Turner Ranch cattle, and I met Doc through him. Having said that, I can't give you a year, but we must suppose it was at least as early as the fifties. Back then it wasn't straws but I believe ampules?

if I remember correctly it was earlier than the fifties, or atleast the late forties. After WW2 the use of bulls was prohibited and only AI to certain approved bulls was allowed in Germany to rebuild the national cattle herd. That would make my guess it was already being used in the forties.

My history is poor in that area.
Why would bulls be prohibited?
Thanks

here is a link that gives a better version of what I tried to tell you

http://www.bovineengineering.com/nl_sci ... eding.html

 

[redfornow]

When did semen collecting and freezing start? (I don't feel like researching it)

Doc Easley, staff vet for the famed Turner Ranch was one of the pioneers. This grand old gentleman is still living in Sulphur, OK, and I have spoken to him two or three times via telephone. A good friend, Richard Day, still raises Hazlett/Turner Ranch cattle, and I met Doc through him. Having said that, I can't give you a year, but we must suppose it was at least as early as the fifties. Back then it wasn't straws but I believe ampules?

if I remember correctly it was earlier than the fifties, or atleast the late forties. After WW2 the use of bulls was prohibited and only AI to certain approved bulls was allowed in Germany to rebuild the national cattle herd. That would make my guess it was already being used in the forties.

My history is poor in that area.
Why would bulls be prohibited?
Thanks

here is a link that gives a better version of what I tried to tell you

http://www.bovineengineering.com/nl_sci ... eding.html

Now thats interesting
Thanks for the links.

 

[Tom Underwood]

greenwillowhereford II wrote:
I communicated with an outfit from Minnesota..I believe it was Nelson Polled Herefords, who have polled Lamplighters and Advance Dominos. The had just a few units of semen on one of the old Lamplighter bulls,(I'll have to look up his name) and they got a son, and now are using a grandson. A couple of other breeders and I were discussing going together and buying the grandson or great grandson, but the deal fell through when the other two discovered that the bulls in question were both scurred. I wound up buying half share in FGR Reese Hudson locally.

The performance of these Lamplighter bulls was all you could ask for, 700# weaning range.


Interesting!

I looked them up and found this bull:

NPH PRESIDENT LAMPLIGHTER 257 (P42260351)

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 24582F202E

He's a 2002 model from a sire who was born in 1952!

I noticed that they are also using John Alexander's Havre King Domino bull.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 5859272E2D

I've talked with John on another board in the past and knew he was getting some growthy cattle out of his bull.

George

In terms of old lines, Nelson is using the same genetics that I am. We both bought our Lamplighters fro Eugene Henkel in Fairbury, NE. Henkel still has semen on Adv Mod Lamp 57, the bull born in 1952. Last year, I bought a half interest in Henkel's herd bull, EEH Lamplighter 21:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C5B2224272F2E&9=5B5D5D

I also bought the bull's full sister and some others. The 21st is very inbred, and his calves do not grow when bred to other Lamplighters. They wean at about 325 lbs when modern genetics wean at around 550 for me.

When outcrossed to modern Herefords, some of the calves seem to grow closer to modern genetics, but with the thickness of the 21st. My first outcross calves were born this Fall, so I am still learning. I have 8 outcross calves on the ground now, and I'll have about 30 this Spring.

Regarding the history of AI, Doc Easely and the Turn Ranch, I'd suggest reading "The Turner Ranch" by Stewart. Prior to the 70's, semen was stored in ampules. Back in the 50's, semen was stored in "magic wands." I don't remember how the semen on the 57th is stored. Much of what I am using is in ampules with either egg or milk.
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