Upcoming semen sale, rare air if you are interested.

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Most Angus breeders just care about numbers. I know BH has some good "looking" cattle - but I wonder how long that will continue if he relies heavily on the numbers. Numbers are a tool. DNA is a TOOL.

 

[76 Bar]

Most Angus breeders just care about numbers. I know BH has some good "looking" cattle - but I wonder how long that will continue if he relies heavily on the numbers. Numbers are a tool. DNA is a TOOL.

Words of wisdom. Witnessed by AAA's current scrambling to mitigate the chasing numbers damage done to a breed once considered the epitome of maternal superiority. Thinking you can have it all is patently naive and comes with an unssustainable price.

 

[CattleMan1920]

We see things vastly different. I can know the results in a few hours and fine tune - program an engine to fit my needs. Where as you won't know anything for at least 3 years on how your breeding decisions worked out short term.

How so? When I send in a DNA sample within days of the calf being born?

Angus GS can predict with a surprising degree of accuracy what you have in front of you.

I'm not guessing at as much as you may think.

The reason I said who knows, it that I doubt on some of those bulls that are offered, that there is a DNA test. When the dam and the sire are both tested, and even further back from what I've been told, and the actual progeny is tested, then you have a pretty accurate picture of the traits that calf will be bringing to the table.

So the dna test would tell you if your breeding decision was good or not even tho the calf is just days old?? I have to missing something.

Unless I'm reading something wrong. This is from Zoetis and HD50K

Reduce selection and breeding mistakes—with HD 50K you get to know now:

Selecting heifer bulls: GE-EPDs for calving ease direct and birth weight have accuracies roughly equivalent to bulls with 28 and 21 progeny

Selecting growth/carcass bulls: GE-EPDs for growth, feed efficiency and carcass merit have accuracies roughly equivalent to bulls with 23, 8 and 10 progeny

Selecting all-purpose bulls: GE-EPDs for applicable traits have accuracies roughly equivalent to bulls with 15 progeny/carcasses/daughters

For Angus females, GE-EPDs deliver more accuracy than a typical lifetime of progeny performance information contributing to traditional genetic evaluation

 

[True Grit Farms]

How so? When I send in a DNA sample within days of the calf being born?

Angus GS can predict with a surprising degree of accuracy what you have in front of you.

I'm not guessing at as much as you may think.

The reason I said who knows, it that I doubt on some of those bulls that are offered, that there is a DNA test. When the dam and the sire are both tested, and even further back from what I've been told, and the actual progeny is tested, then you have a pretty accurate picture of the traits that calf will be bringing to the table.

So the dna test would tell you if your breeding decision was good or not even tho the calf is just days old?? I have to missing something.

Unless I'm reading something wrong. This is from Zoetis and HD50K

Reduce selection and breeding mistakes—with HD 50K you get to know now:

Selecting heifer bulls: GE-EPDs for calving ease direct and birth weight have accuracies roughly equivalent to bulls with 28 and 21 progeny

Selecting growth/carcass bulls: GE-EPDs for growth, feed efficiency and carcass merit have accuracies roughly equivalent to bulls with 23, 8 and 10 progeny

Selecting all-purpose bulls: GE-EPDs for applicable traits have accuracies roughly equivalent to bulls with 15 progeny/carcasses/daughters

For Angus females, GE-EPDs deliver more accuracy than a typical lifetime of progeny performance information contributing to traditional genetic evaluation

A salesman is supposed to sell their companies products.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Most Angus breeders just care about numbers. I know BH has some good "looking" cattle - but I wonder how long that will continue if he relies heavily on the numbers. Numbers are a tool. DNA is a TOOL.

Jeanne,

I have a bull for you, assuming you were in the Angus business. According to the ranch that owns his sire and the ranch that owned his great great grandsire, this bull has the entire package, but most of all he has some of the very best feet in the ENTIRE Angus breed. The operation that bred him said that his sire had the best feet they had ever seen in their entire VERY LONG career in the Angus business. His dam has excellent feet, she is a big framed Joy Erica cow. Feet as you know are extremely important to Angus breeders.

Here are his AAA# details (click link below)

http://bit.ly/2VbRsuF

Here is a link to Youtube for a video of him, not in straw or deep grass, more like a gravel drive.

http://bit.ly/2UJJyck

He may be sold next week to a large scale commercial cattleman that typically uses Black Limousin bulls along with Gelbvieh bulls. He told me that he really liked the way this bull walked and his overall structure. He saw something I didn't.

Now here is the punchline. His numbers are NOTHING to write home about. Most Angus breeders would not be interested if they were going strictly on numbers. So what gives, would you buy a bull strictly on phenotype, and ignore numbers completely? I can understand if you want a certain pedigreed animal in the bloodline, but overall, it's not the plan I'm on. By the way, he was semen tested and the vet said it was the highest amount of swimmers she had ever seen, he has a big scrotal circumference for his age, and he has a big curly-haired neck, he's definitely potent.

All the DNA test is doing as far as I'm concerned is comparing one animal against the entire group that has already been submitted. It tells you where you stand. It's not an absolute prediction of what is to come. I have a Harvestor bull that I just put to work that does not have spectacular numbers, but he has a strong pedigree, he looks excellent, and he passed his BSE with flying colors at 12 months. He's out working right now as a very young bull and getting the job done on cleanup.

I'm not obsessed with the numbers, but I do watch them closely. Trying to sell bulls that have poor EPD's is not an easy task.

Let me ask everyone a question here on CT? Based on what you have seen above, should I keep this bull and use him extensively? His great great grandsire was supposedly a king when it came to efficiency, and his feet are superb. Am I completely missing something here because I'm focused on his numbers? I would assume that someone like NEFarmWife would not touch this bull with a 10 foot pole because of his $B and growth characteristics. His 205 was 687 pounds, and that was under perfect conditions, he never saw a bad day ever.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Branded, I wouldn't.

Poorest numbers I've ever seen. And that is ONE UGLY bull. Your potential buyer is drunk!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I didn't bother looking at his numbers, but looking at the video did not impress me at all. I have seen better bulls produced on your farm. He was poor steer quality on my farm. Yes, when analyzing cattle, we need to start with the feet, but you do have to look up from there.
All the mumbo jumbo spouted by Zoetis is saying DNA enhances the EPD's ACCURACIES. Sorry, but to me -- DNA helps the accuracies for the breed - but a single animal's DNA results is miniscular (sp?) in my herd picture.
My whole herd, down to weaned heifers, were DNA'd last year. I did it for the genetic benefits for the breed - not for the benefits in my herd.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I didn't bother looking at his numbers, but looking at the video did not impress me at all. I have seen better bulls produced on your farm. He was poor steer quality on my farm. Yes, when analyzing cattle, we need to start with the feet, but you do have to look up from there.
All the mumbo jumbo spouted by Zoetis is saying DNA enhances the EPD's ACCURACIES. Sorry, but to me -- DNA helps the accuracies for the breed - but a single animal's DNA results is miniscular (sp?) in my herd picture.
My whole herd, down to weaned heifers, were DNA'd last year. I did it for the genetic benefits for the breed - not for the benefits in my herd.

[/quote}

With all due respect, when I have bred to high $B bulls, as per their DNA tests, I have gotten bigger, thicker calves, and higher weaning weights. DNA testing is not hocus pocus, it works.

Also, I got this bull as a bonus, when I bought a cow bred to Crook Mt. Black Cedar 3870.

He is not the phenotype that I prefer, but the operation that he came from is using the Black Cedar genetics extensively from what I can tell, and using his siblings throughout their 400+ registered herd. They are all in on Black Cedar genetics.

His sire was developed by a gentleman named Jim Willson of Crook Mount Angus. His sire was also a standout at Frei Angus, who had entirely different comments about our bull than you did. They had nothing to gain, and were direct about what they thought of him. They have a pretty nice ranch from what I can tell.

Here is a link to their website

http://bit.ly/2vmUIoB

The commercial producer that will probably be taking him next week was far more interested in the bull above than my McCumber Unmistakables which I think are better bulls.

At the end of the day, I'm more into bulls that look like SAV President 6847.

 

[Hogtiming]

Branded. Angus gs is another way for the association to make money and that is all is my opinion.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded. Angus gs is another way for the association to make money and that is all is my opinion.

It's also a great way to prove parentage from what I can tell, versus someone selling you a bill of goods.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Branded. Angus gs is another way for the association to make money and that is all is my opinion.

It's also a great way to prove parentage from what I can tell, versus someone selling you a bill of goods.

Your both right.

 

[True Grit Farms]

You obviously weren't around during the belt buckle to mammoth era nor a Harlan Ritchie fan. ;-)
1964: https://msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/ankonian_president.jpg

That goes back!!
A few years ago I was fortunate enough to look over Al Gore Sr's sale facilitys I was amazed how small the ally ways were, small scales and the doors couldn't have been more then 4ft tall coming into the ring. Nothing fancy just liked looking at it for the history of it all.

Theres supposedly alot of gores cattle influence in this area still.

Fart free and covered in fairy dust I suppose.

 

[gizmom]

Been fun watching the 707 is pushing 10,000 which is pretty cool.

Gizmom

 

[bse]

made for a long auction, i gave up at 11 said the heck with it if get a lot great if not who cares. I know several lots went for more than you can still buy the stuff for, but at last i seen a few that seemed cheap if i needed any.

 

[sstterry]

I have a serious question, is one ampule of semen really worth $9,825? I know that if money is no object, that is one thing, but is the Angus Industry turning into the Herford Industry of the 1980s? This sort of thing happened with tulips once.

 

[Ebenezer]

I have a serious question, is one ampule of semen really worth $9,825? I know that if money is no object, that is one thing, but is the Angus Industry turning into the Herford Industry of the 1980s? This sort of thing happened with tulips once.

Four things:

IVF has changed the game and if things line up just right you can fertilize 50+ embryos from one straw.

You have to believe that the bull is like no other including 1000's of decedents that apparently did not fulfill all dreams or were bred incorrectly. So if the rest in the past 50 years did not make it happen, why will this crop do any differently?

And like fishing, to get the fish to bite you have to hold your mouth just like this! Same mouth position needed for the best calves ever from old semen.

Money is not the question.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Good bad or otherwise you'd be hard pressed to sell bulls from that old semen. Name recognition isn't there unless your an older hard core Angus breeder.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I have a serious question, is one ampule of semen really worth $9,825? I know that if money is no object, that is one thing, but is the Angus Industry turning into the Herford Industry of the 1980s? This sort of thing happened with tulips once.

People pay many multiples of what this semen will ultimately cost for a vintage bottle of wine, drink it and enjoy it, that's a fact. There are also people who will buy tons of crap at flea markets, old tractors, anything that tickles their pickle and it usually adds up to a lot more than this ampule of semen, with a vastly lower return on capital.

If it ends up in the right hands, that money is already recaptured in future sales.

Lots of people gasped at SAV America selling for $1.5 million, but try and get even one straw of his semen! The waitlist is growing by the day. Charles Herbster could stand to make all of his money back in one year on that bull if things go right.

It's all about perspective. Hoover Dam probably looked expensive when he first sold at auction. His price now is laughable in hind site.

 

[bse]

Little quote off the history of Emulous cattle.

Due to the profound impact of the Emulous line of Angus cattle it is important to document the history and highlights. Should history repeat itself like it often does, Emulous bred cattle will surface yet again to notably contribute to the beef business. It only remains to be seen when and by whom.

I doubt there will be a bull 50 yrs from now that will bring the kind of money 707 did after 50 yrs. Couple of reasons, very few folks breed for those type cattle, and now bulls are a dime a dozen. Look how the supply has progressed, EXT several lots available and in 50 years the famed America[just an example] there will be plenty of straws if anyone even wants it.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Little quote off the history of Emulous cattle.

Due to the profound impact of the Emulous line of Angus cattle it is important to document the history and highlights. Should history repeat itself like it often does, Emulous bred cattle will surface yet again to notably contribute to the beef business. It only remains to be seen when and by whom.

I doubt there will be a bull 50 yrs from now that will bring the kind of money 707 did after 50 yrs. Couple of reasons, very few folks breed for those type cattle, and now bulls are a dime a dozen. Look how the supply has progressed, EXT several lots available and in 50 years the famed America[just an example] there will be plenty of straws if anyone even wants it.

America to me, or Elation, or President are just parts of the equation I'm putting together. I use a lot more than just SAV out here, but so far SAV progeny have turned out very nicely.