Uniform Herd vs. Several Breeds.

[Ashton V]

Saw one of the local commercial cattlemen at the feed store today. He has a great looking herd of angus cows and will run different breeds of bulls over them and sell all the calves as terminals and when he gets ready for replacements he runs a angus bull over em. So all his mama cows are all angus. I have always kinda looked up to him and he has helped me out with some things when I was starting out. I have angus cows, black baldys, and i recently just bought a lot of herefords. So i have a mixed herd. When i got to talkin to him today he said something along the lines of "You sure would be better off sticking with one breed. Dont know why you would want a mix of mama cows. You dont have any uniformity." I was kinda disappointed. I guess i am kinda just venting more than anything. But i wanted to see what some of you guys had to say about the matter.

 

[Baldie Maker]

Make baldies and retain them for brood cows and use a terminal sire to maximize heterosis or sell them for a premium, that's what I aim to do once I do finally finish college and can do it on a level that's profitable.

 

[Black Coos]

I sort of agree with him, I like my cows to look the same, thus the calves look the same...

 

[Aaron]

Uniformity is about color as much as it is about type. The guys who buy calves look for a certain physical type. A feed yard pen of steers might not be uniform in color, but it will be uniform in type. Get uniformity in color and type (in your herd) and you have it made.

 

[spear B]

I am agreeing with both of you. While uniformity is good at the sale barn, so is building a herd. I would just stick with the same breed of bull for a few years and uniformity will come. The way the market is now it is good to cow up.

 

[dun]

We have a mixed herd. Some straight bred Red Angus (a couple of black Red Angus,) Hereford and Hereford crosses, a little black Angus , a little Gelbvieh a liitle Simmenthal so we have color variation. Where we have consistency is type of cow. Other then color (and most of the time having to look at an ear tag) they all look about the same. We don;t sell many calves at the salebarn, when we do they're in prevac/weanvac sales. The only way they get sorted is by gender.

 

[Brandonm22]

Crossbred cows typically will stay in the herd longer, have a higher breed back percentage, and wean a heavier calf than a straightbred cow with the same level of management. The crossbred steer is typically going to have better feedlot gains, yield better, and have higher health in the feedlot than the straight bred steer. Most of the $$$ in crossbreeding however comes from the heterosis in that crossbred cow. This has been studied too death most recently by Hereford. Since your friend sells a crossbred steer normally anyway (thus his end product is not really more uniform than yours), he is leaving money on the table by using a straightbred cowherd.

 

[Angus Cowman]

Crossbred cows typically will stay in the herd longer, have a higher breed back percentage, and wean a heavier calf than a straightbred cow with the same level of management. The crossbred steer is typically going to have better feedlot gains, yield better, and have higher health in the feedlot than the straight bred steer. Most of the $$$ in crossbreeding however comes from the heterosis in that crossbred cow. This has been studied too death most recently by Hereford. Since your friend sells a crossbred steer normally anyway (thus his end product is not really more uniform than yours), he is leaving money on the table by using a straightbred cowherd.

I don't understand your logic here
if he uses a like set of cows and breeds them to a terminal set of like bulls his calves should be more consistent than a crayon box set of cows bred to the same bulls
I had a post about this a few months ago
as for leaving money on the table I really don't see how because that set of calves should top the market wherever they are over a set of crayon box cows where there is no consistency in color or size of calves which often occurs in calves ot of crossbred cows

Ashton
I agree with your friend

Baldie maker
retaining hfrs and making a set of brood cows is ok but I don't see how anyone with just a few hd of cows (less than 50) can ever afford to keep the replacements and build a set of brood cows
I am not just meaning afford in the $$$ sense but with the time it will take to get enough replacements to build a herd it would be a long process taking several yrs and will take several $$$ along the way
when a person is starting out they would be better off just buying the type of cows they want since they are buying cows anyway

 

[dun]

with the time it will take to get enough replacements to build a herd it would be a long process taking several yrs

An understatement

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Crossbred cows typically will stay in the herd longer, have a higher breed back percentage, and wean a heavier calf than a straightbred cow with the same level of management. The crossbred steer is typically going to have better feedlot gains, yield better, and have higher health in the feedlot than the straight bred steer. Most of the $$$ in crossbreeding however comes from the heterosis in that crossbred cow. This has been studied too death most recently by Hereford. Since your friend sells a crossbred steer normally anyway (thus his end product is not really more uniform than yours), he is leaving money on the table by using a straightbred cowherd.

I don't understand your logic here
if he uses a like set of cows and breeds them to a terminal set of like bulls his calves should be more consistent than a crayon box set of cows bred to the same bulls
I had a post about this a few months ago as for leaving money on the table I really don't see how because that set of calves should top the market wherever they are over a set of crayon box cows where there is no consistency in color or size of calves which often occurs in calves ot of crossbred cows

Ashton
I agree with your friend

Baldie maker
retaining hfrs and making a set of brood cows is ok but I don't see how anyone with just a few hd of cows (less than 50) can ever afford to keep the replacements and build a set of brood cows
I am not just meaning afford in the $$$ sense but with the time it will take to get enough replacements to build a herd it would be a long process taking several yrs and will take several $$$ along the way
when a person is starting out they would be better off just buying the type of cows they want since they are buying cows anyway

yep i remember that one,, got my ass booted as i recall

 

[E in PA]

ashton you said this guy helped you out in the begining. did you buy any of your angus from him? if so he might be mad you didn't buy more from him instead of buying the herefords, or he might be disapointed you didn't go straight angus like him. just a thought.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

uniformity takes time. Anyone who is starting out is going to have a long period of time where they have inconsistancies within the herd.

 

[Angus Cowman]

yep i remember that one,, got my ass booted as i recall

yep :lol: :lol: wasn't the first time and probly won't be the last :cowboy: :cowboy:

 

[SRBeef]

uniformity takes time. Anyone who is starting out is going to have a long period of time where they have inconsistancies within the herd.

I will second that statement. Anyyone "just starting out" (like me) doesn't really know much about cattle in the first place and ends up with a hodge podge of different types even in the same breed. So first you have to learn about your cattle and which way you want them to go and how you want and need them to look. Then you have to start the long process of getting there.

And as far as buying them the way you want, I guess I just don't see that as very likely unless you just won the lottery. Folks just don't usually sell their best cows which are probably the ones you want. And if they do its one at a time and very expensive.

I am pretty well resigned to the fact that I will have to build a herd the way I want it. And yes it will take time. But the key word in this business, it seems to me, is CULL, CULL, CULL.

It can be hard to do at first but I am sort of getting to like to cull. It feels good to come back from a trip to the sale barn selling ones you really didn't like very much to see your herd percentage wise more full of ones that you DO like. jmho.

Jim

 

[dun]

The old saying that "there are more differences within breeds then there are between breeds" comes to mind when someone says to get consistant animals you have to straight breed a specific breed. I don;t go completely with the saying, Chianina vs Dexter comes to mind, but the premis I think is pretty accuarate. But I'm just an washed up old phart that's out of time with today

 

[novatech]

Saw one of the local commercial cattlemen at the feed store today. He has a great looking herd of angus cows and will run different breeds of bulls over them and sell all the calves as terminals and when he gets ready for replacements he runs a angus bull over em. So all his mama cows are all angus. I have always kinda looked up to him and he has helped me out with some things when I was starting out. I have angus cows, black baldys, and i recently just bought a lot of herefords. So i have a mixed herd. When i got to talkin to him today he said something along the lines of "You sure would be better off sticking with one breed. Dont know why you would want a mix of mama cows. You dont have any uniformity." I was kinda disappointed. I guess i am kinda just venting more than anything. But i wanted to see what some of you guys had to say about the matter.

He has uniformity in the herd of cows, maybe. But then adds non uniform bulls, and yet advises you that you want uniformity. :???: One of the points of having uniformity, maybe the main point, is to aquire a uniform group of terminals for sale, regardless of how you sell. IMO you are better off with uniformity all the way through. If I had mixed cows I would at least have all the bulls the same breed.
You need to go to the sale barn and watch to see how they run the calves through. People with uniform calves will run them through in lots of what ever number. Buyers will typicly pay more. Sellers will usually pull the odd ball calves out and not include them in the lot.
The reason for buyers wanting iniformity is because of the process at the feed yard. Different calfs, age size, and even breed may be fed differently. They also need to do this because of what their buyer want.
Uniformity includes every aspect of cow and bull selection. not only breed but phenotype and breeding season.

 

[Angus Cowman]

uniformity takes time. Anyone who is starting out is going to have a long period of time where they have inconsistancies within the herd.

I will second that statement. Anyyone "just starting out" (like me) doesn't really know much about cattle in the first place and ends up with a hodge podge of different types even in the same breed. So first you have to learn about your cattle and which way you want them to go and how you want and need them to look. Then you have to start the long process of getting there.

And as far as buying them the way you want, I guess I just don't see that as very likely unless you just won the lottery. Folks just don't usually sell their best cows which are probably the ones you want. And if they do its one at a time and very expensive.


Jim

I never implied you had to buy the best cows out there but if you are just starting out you need to buy a consistant set of cows and not a crayon box of cows and I can take you to some guys that are in the business of raising replcemnet hfrs that yes you can buy a topend set of uniform hfrs or for that matter 4 or 6 or 8 yr old cows it just depends on what scale the people you are buying from operate on
the guy with 50-100 cows no I doubt he will sell ya the top end of his calves but the guys with 1000 sure will

it doesn't matter if you like red,purple, or green cows just buy cows that are comsistant and breed them for to have consistant calves if you want the most for your $$$
now if you like crayola cows that is fine but just remember don't b@#$^%tch when your calves bring less at sale time

 

[cbcr]

It is very true, uniformity takes time, but how much time?

If you have a base cowherd of mixed breeds Angus, Hereford, and Black Baldies like Ashton V is starting with, you have the Angus and Hereford that is a single breed with no hybrid vigor (heterosis) and the Black Baldies which do have.

If all of the cows that he has are of similar phenotype this makes it much easier. It is true that if he plans to sell the calves at the salebarn calves are sorted according to size, type and color.

What should he breed them to? If he uses an Angus bull the calves from the Hereford and Black Baldies will have hybrid vigor while the straitbred Angus will not. So this may not be the way to go. What are his options?

In evaluating his herd, what are the strengths and weaknesses of the cows he has now? What size(s) are the cows, weight and frame?

After this evaluations then look for a breed that can compliment your cows. It doesn't really matter if it is Gelbvieh, Simmental, Maine Anjou, but probably first breed these cows to a purebred single breed bull. If he is keeping heifers from this cross the the next bull to use on this group of cows would be a Composite bull. If he chooses Gelbvieh for the first bull to use, then the Composite bull should be a Gelbvieh/Angus cross. He could continue using this Composite combination which would bring consistency, uniformity (color and type) and retain hybrid vigor (heterosis) at a constant level in his herd.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

cows and breeds aside,, calving seasons and consistant management goes a long way toward having a good group of uniform calve's

 

[Commercialfarmer]

If he chooses Gelbvieh for the first bull to use, then the Composite bull should be a Gelbvieh/Angus cross. He could continue using this Composite combination which would bring consistency, uniformity (color and type) and retain hybrid vigor (heterosis) at a constant level in his herd.

:bs:

It is sad that you are either so misinformed or so intentional in attempting to snow others. You need to get your website up and place all the b.s. you want on it. Otherwise, I'm going to keep calling you out so that individuals not exposed in depth to the actual science of genetics are not misguided by you. I'm pretty laid back overall, but people like you trying to make a buck at the expense of someone else REALLY pisses me off!

Here is a copy of a post you never answered on another website. I'll also add it to your other thread regarding your "registry". The more you try to pass off the above rediculousness as a reality, the more I realize your goals of "service".

Again, I'm not saying that composite animals cannot serve a function. I have also had plenty of training in genetics in the past. I read your links. The links do not provide near enough information about how they are claiming to have arrived at their conclusions and data and method to interpret. I will say that if heterosis was maintained (and by this I mean kept at a constant level) in a population of composites, then you would not have control over consistency. If you have control over consistency, then you lose heterosis.

I have a link for you on Mendelian inheritance:
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/far ... intro.html

The following image illustrates my point.

Otherwise you end up with a new consistent type. This type may be very useful such as the Santa Gertrudis in warm climates. But to say that breeding a Santa Gertrudis to a Santa Gertrudis will provide heterosis is not accurate. No different than breeding an Angus to an Angus. All breeds had to be created at some point?

Somewhere it mentioned starting with a similar type animal or color, I think this would likely limit your genetic diversity before even getting started.

I could write a novel here, but will let that suffice. Good luck in your adventure, let's just not confuse anyone in the industry while doing it.