Trusting you guys

[gcreekrch]

Any trouble with them calving when they have their second calf bred to your normal bulls? I remember having some problems with the second calf when Dad used a longhorn bull on heifers. That was a number of years ago and things have changed since then.

They go with the most moderate Angus bulls second year also. After that they have a 40% chance of meeting a Char bull.

We used Longhorn bulls on heifers 40 years ago, loved them until the door opened into the auction ring. We could likely lose 25% of an Angus sired calf crop on heifers today and still be money ahead.
Costs the same to feed for less dollars in whenever you use an off type breed.

 

[Jafruech]

5 years ago you said you had horses but miss having cattle, you talked about starting a ranch from scratch. That means zero does it not? Then you bought a place with 60 acres - maybe buy a couple to start. 3 years ago you bought cattle and were going to buy your replacements. How long has the replacement program been running? You're talking about 12 year longevity. Anyone can go look through your posts and see.

I actually don't think your numbers are far fetched - with a small number of cattle over a short time. Zero calf losses in a decent sized herd are definitely uncommon, so is a 99% breed back rate, especially in a 45 day window. In large numbers, over many years. You're speaking with authority and representing yourself like you've been doing it for years and in numbers. My impression has been that you're probably a decent operator, you definitely have some good knowledge and ideas but you just haven't had the sh!t hit the fan yet and you're starting to think it's you and your cattle. Those of us not attaining 99% breed backs, who lose the odd calf or cow and waste our time helping cows calve aren't all idiots stuck in our ways, we've just been around long enough and run enough numbers that we've won the unlucky lottery and have figured out we can save a few and make some money.

I never bought a place with 60 acres. I was renting a place while I was on active duty still. I bought a house and a couple of sections when I got medically retired then found several leases on top of that.

I had a few cows with me at that point. I don't consider that a herd. The rest of mine were back in KS. However, I knew at that point what I had wasn't what I wanted, and I wanted to start from scratch with a herd built with the genetics and qualities I wanted. At the time of those posts I didn't know I was getting medically retired. I was considering getting out though, maybe doing reserve or active NG. I was considering a lot. The medical retirement hit fast and quick after that. Needless to say that changed a lot for me and my plans and I went from thinking I would pick up an additional 10-15 head while active duty still to picking up 100. Things change and I was able to grow faster than I had planned getting out.

You conviently ignored the more important aspects of what I said. These aren't just my numbers. The friend I sourced my cows from originally uses the exact same crossbreeding program. He's been at it for 50 years. His numbers are pretty dang close to mine and he has a lot more cattle than I do. You're right. My numbers alone mean very little. But my numbers matching 50 years of other numbers using the same genetics and crossbreeding program do mean something. It's not coincidence. I'm pretty good with numbers and analysis..I've looked through his books. I've looked at his cows and calving. His breed back is around 93% with 50 years of numbers to even it out. I'm sure mine will settle out to the same.

I have a 17, almost 18 year old cow, and multiple 12-15 year olds out of her. And plenty over 10. I'm keeping replacements back to cover when they stop producing...how can I predict longevity? Because I've got 50 years of other numbers to fall back on that show me what to expect, plus what I'm seeing from the old cows in my herd and the multiple generations of their daughters I have in my herd. I'm using the same genetics and crossbreeding program, and my numbers already match his in every other area such as early breeding, calving easy, fleshing, disease/parasite resistance, etc... longevity is just another metric of the same.

It takes 3000 plus acres to run 100 cows here most years...more during a drought. It's not a large herd...but for around here it's not really a small one either. Low end of moderate sized probably. If I was in a different area of the US I could have a lot more cows for the same ground... something I'm considering.

You say I haven't had the **** hit the fan yet...you're right. I spent plenty of time kicking sand around in Afghanistan and having **** hit the fan and one lesson I got from it is this...when **** hits the fan, how you react, what you do, and what you have prepared for is going to determine how you make it through. Barring some terrible disease they aren't vacced against, there's not much I'm not prepared for and don't have continencies for. Things that should have made the **** hit the fan for me didn't.

Harsh winter, bomb cyclone in March 2019 with 95pmh wind and 10ft drifts built in one day...zero losses. Not because of my cows but because of my preparation. Other people were hauling dead cows and calves out of their pastures for weeks as the snow melted.

Terrible drought, old neighbors who've been in the business all their lives that had to liquidate a lot of their herd. That should have caused a wreck for me. Certainly kept me from growing more like I wanted last year but it didn't make me go backwards.

Lost one of my main private treaty buyers to COVID effects. Had to change plans and sell at the sale barn. In December and end of January. Did good in December and really good in January when I took the bigger load. Several other repeat private treaty buyers who keep coming back to me over others in the area they have tried.

Had a huge copper deficiency from some high sulfur and iron in one of the wells on a new lease ground right in the middle of breeding season. Should have caused a huge wreck in breed back but I was able to identify and correct it and the cows were able to bounce back fast from it.

Local guy lost 40 cows to high nitrates in hay. I almost bought from the same source (looked like great hay) but refused because they didn't have nitrate tests on it. Avoided another huge wreck with caution.

**** hits the fan... doesn't mean the results have to be shitty.

Maybe I'll have wreck when I start calving at the end of next month. I'll happily eat crow if I do and post about it. I did have one of the angus bulls fail 2 BSEs (he's headed to freezer land next week. Processors are booked out 6+ months here from COVID BS). I had to turn out one of the hereford bulls I had held back out with that group of cows to cover them. Not what I had planned, but they all bred during the normal season.

If my friend got on here and posted his 50 years worth of bookeeping and numbers that are pretty similar to mine with a much larger herd...would you tell him he just hasn't had **** hit the fan yet? Maybe find another reason why he's wrong or got magic cattle?

I don't get how people can be so stuck in their ways and thoughts that they can't consider otherwise.

My grandpa ran cattle till he was 89 and finally "retired. my great grandpa did so till he was 94...he passed in a car wreck at 96 on the way to a date with his 78 year old girlfriend...My grandpa had more years of experience than probably anyone on this group (he too spent time in the military then came back and took over the ranch)...and yet he said if he could do it again he would do what I'm doing now...if that doesn't tell you something idk what will.

Unpopular statement: Doing something for 50 years doesn't mean there's not a better way of doing it. The farming industry has been forced to evolve with the times...make changes like no till drilling (which when I grew up and we were growing corn/milo for silage definitely wasn't a thing). Farming has had to trend towards how to make more profit on the same acreage. How to be more efficient.... meanwhile the beef industry has been focused on making bigger and faster growing calves at the expense of sustainability and efficiency...and it is heading towards a wreck with the way the world is changing. If we are all still alive in 20 years, I think the conversation on here may go very differently than it is now.

 

[Allenw]

They go with the most moderate Angus bulls second year also. After that they have a 40% chance of meeting a Char bull.

We used Longhorn bulls on heifers 40 years ago, loved them until the door opened into the auction ring. We could likely lose 25% of an Angus sired calf crop on heifers today and still be money ahead.
Costs the same to feed for less dollars in whenever you use an off type breed.

Dad was lucky on the longhorn crosses running a roan bull, a really beefy bull for a longhorn, on Hereford heifers. He had red mottle face calves and while calves with red tipped ears and a few small, quarter sized red spotts. The white calves actually topped the sale once when he sold them.

 

[Stocker Steve]

It costs me $365 and change last year to keep a cow and her calf until weaning. Once weaned the calves become their own individual. It will cost another $510 in feed, vet exp,and yardage to get that first calf on the ground. $875 so far.
Now figure as a just weaned bawling hfr, 5mos old weighing 400lbs @ $1.50 she's worth $600.
If you buy her for $600 and add $510 in for inputs you now have $1,110 invested. I can value her less because I have less invested.
We finish cattle. Saving hfrs is no different than feeding fats. The ones we make the most profit on are the ones we raise.
We have the advantage of multiple pastures and multiple bulls. The top end cows go with maternal cow maker type bulls. The rest go with Charolais bulls. The goal is for the calves to be the F1's. That way the most hybrid vigor goes to the feed lot.
This is just my numbers, I don't expect them to fit some else's operation.

Good post.
- Valuing yardage is a little tricky. Is there any standard feedlot vs. pasture yardage costs in your area?
- Taking a bunch of heifers back to grass is part of our drought management plan. They can be sold early if needed.
- Percent of weaned heifers that make good heifer pairs can be an issue. I freezer beef a few at a profit - - so culls are a benefit to a point.
- Recent sales barn bull bred prices here have been in the $1100 to $1300 range. Basically at cost, unless they are fancy AIed heifers.
- Taxation is personnel thing. I choose to sell a few private party after they qualify for long term capital gains. I think the long term question is are heifers a wealth builder?

 

[NewMoo]

My condolences on your father, took the wind out of my sails when my dad died.

If I may, what are your plans for the future? You keep breeding this cow, expect a heifer calf every other year, keep all the calves. Eventually you run out of room or money if nothing ever gets sold. Myself, I love raising cattle, but it's a lot more fun when you get a paycheck once in a while.

Thank you for your condolences. Your "wind out of my sails" comment is spot on. Three months later, I am entering the anger stage of grief. It took losing a healthy older cow, last week, to bring it all to a head. She was healthy one day and down the next. Despite doing everything the vet advised, we lost a good cow. I'm tired of losing people and animals that mean a lot to me.

Space isn't an issue, but I understand your point. My plans are to build a solid herd of about 20 head. More than that would be a challenge for this independent woman, because my brother and I disagree on our approaches to managing cattle. I'm more proactive; he is more "let's wait until we have an issue and solve it" than to put in place steps to prevent issues.(vaccinations, mineral injections, etc.)

I know Herefords get dinged at the sale barn, but that is my preferred breed. I don't want to go the registered route, because I think there is a market for quality non-registered Herefords through private sales. I also realize I need to invest in quality cows and market the heck out of calves/cows to sell. I have a good bull that my father gave my brother and me to use.

I'm a kindergarten teacher by profession, and I help my brother manage my father's two herds of Hereford/ black baldy, plus a handful of red angus cattle. It totals 60 head. I know whose current and past calf is whose, which ones will freak out if pushed, and which ones lost calves or need to be culled.

I grew up around cattle, but I'm green in knowledge. In the past five years, my on-the-ground experience has skyrocketed. I've crawled under fences to bottle feed calves of protective mommas, treated a 1600 pound bull's cut foot, and helped pull calves. I've read books and have an experienced cattleman friend who doesn't discount my questions because I lack testicles. My brother discounts me because I lack testicles. He'll help me if I ask, but the bottom line is he thinks I have no business dealing with cattle. That lack of faith on his part drives me, in part, to learn all I can. The bottom line is I want to grow my herd of 8 into something impressive— not for the glory, rather for the sense of knowing I can keep animals healthy and provide an environment in which they thrive. Mostly, I love cattle.

 

[NewMoo]

My neighbor had the vet treat one of his cows for a rectal prolapse not too long ago, she followed it up with a vaginal prolapse as well, and I've noticed a correlation between the two also.. Sorry, that's probably not the hope you're looking for.

My new vet said it was likely to happen again. My head understands, but my heart clings to something my father gave me. I appreciate your sharing. One day, sentimentality (and my father's yelling, "SELL that cow!" From Heaven) may take a back seat to practicality.

 

[NewMoo]

Yes!
It can be caused by constipation. Look at your cow shyt literally. Is it stacked?
It's just a hemorrhoid, my first the vet fixed.
He got a piece of one inch pvc pipe and a couple of couplings.
He glued the couplings maybe 2" apart. He then placed the pvc pipe in the cows rectum.
He tied the pipe on with string cutting off the blood supply to the prolapse and this still lets her us the bathroom.About week later pipe fell out everything was fine and the cow produced many more years.

Wow! I recall reading something similar before she had this problem. I'm off to look at her poop! Thank you!

 

[Gators Rule]

Except you got $1K of taxable income from selling yours.. so there is NO benefit

I agree with Caustic Burno on this. Nesikep, you got to remember that if your retained heifer died, you can't write it off.....but if you sold it and replaced with another heifer, your newly purchased heifer would have taxable value (write it off if she dies). With that said, I agree that it makes good monetary sense to buy your replacement heifers in a commercial cow/calf operation UNLESS you just want to build your herd as a hobby, which is where I am. Personally, I just hope to not loose money when it is all said and done. Yes, I have a primary business that pays the bills, so if I'm somewhat smart, I can at least break even, or make it up in tax breaks. As far as inputs go, if my raised heifer dies, I hope she dies earlier versus later.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I agree with Caustic Burno on this. Nesikep, you got to remember that if your retained heifer died, you can't write it off.....but if you sold it and replaced with another heifer, your newly purchased heifer would have taxable value (write it off if she dies). With that said, I agree that it makes good monetary sense to buy your replacement heifers in a commercial cow/calf operation UNLESS you just want to build your herd as a hobby, which is where I am. Personally, I just hope to not loose money when it is all said and done. Yes, I have a primary business that pays the bills, so if I'm somewhat smart, I can at least break even, or make it up in tax breaks. As far as inputs go, if my raised heifer dies, I hope she dies earlier versus later.

Bingo

 

[Lazy M]

Bingo

No. You'd still have extra income from selling the replacement heifer which would have negative tax implications. It's basically a push.
A valid point would be: if you're breeding specifically for terminal you shouldn't retain your heifers because those heifers aren't replacement suitable (by design)

 

[Brute 23]

I agree with Caustic Burno on this. Nesikep, you got to remember that if your retained heifer died, you can't write it off.....but if you sold it and replaced with another heifer, your newly purchased heifer would have taxable value (write it off if she dies). With that said, I agree that it makes good monetary sense to buy your replacement heifers in a commercial cow/calf operation UNLESS you just want to build your herd as a hobby, which is where I am. Personally, I just hope to not loose money when it is all said and done. Yes, I have a primary business that pays the bills, so if I'm somewhat smart, I can at least break even, or make it up in tax breaks. As far as inputs go, if my raised heifer dies, I hope she dies earlier versus later.

You dont make business models based on a potential write of IF this one this one small percentage thing happens. Write offs go in the same category as depreciation, if you are chasing either you have already lost.

I'm not complaining here because I'll sell heifers to people all day long.

These definitive statements about commercial producers are just not true. Every... single... operation... is different. People need to do what is the best value for their operation.

 

[Muletrack]

I don't know where you are, but we tried calving at 3 years.. it was impossible to grow our herd, and we found the animals were no better, no reduction in problems, just a whole ton of resources invested into duds.. we had one of the heifers get a uterine torsion, so we kept her a while, and I can't remember what happened the next time, but in all, we had a 5 year old cow that had never made a calf... I wouldn't mind breeding them a LITTLE later, maybe fall calving them, but I'm not about to have two calving seasons.. Maybe you can make it work, but it sure didn't for us

I just don't see it as a whole year of wasted resources. For me, every cow I raise from a calf is a free cow. I'll gladly wait another year for a free cow -- and it's so important as a fall calver that the cows know my system and know me. Conventional wisdom says that calving at three doesn't pay, but there has never been a definitive study that says this is true over the long, long haul in terms of cow longevity. That said, if it's a genetic problem, I would need to get rid of every cow that produced a heifer that didn't calve at 24 months, but most will gladly keep a heifer out of that same gene pool the next year. Failure to breed or to rebreed is primarily a matter of nutrition, not genetics. In nature, in the bison herd which developed here for thousands of years, every open heifer got another chance.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I just don't see it as a whole year of wasted resources. For me, every cow I raise from a calf is a free cow. I'll gladly wait another year for a free cow -- and it's so important as a fall calver that the cows know my system and know me. Conventional wisdom says that calving at three doesn't pay, but there has never been a definitive study that says this is true over the long, long haul in terms of cow longevity. That said, if it's a genetic problem, I would need to get rid of every cow that produced a heifer that didn't calve at 24 months, but most will gladly keep a heifer out of that same gene pool the next year. Failure to breed or to rebreed is primarily a matter of nutrition, not genetics. In nature, in the bison herd which developed here for thousands of years, every open heifer got another chance.

If you think that retained heifer is free you're loosing your butt.
Nothing in life doesn't have a cost.

 

[Rydero]

I just don't see it as a whole year of wasted resources. For me, every cow I raise from a calf is a free cow. I'll gladly wait another year for a free cow -- and it's so important as a fall calver that the cows know my system and know me. Conventional wisdom says that calving at three doesn't pay, but there has never been a definitive study that says this is true over the long, long haul in terms of cow longevity. That said, if it's a genetic problem, I would need to get rid of every cow that produced a heifer that didn't calve at 24 months, but most will gladly keep a heifer out of that same gene pool the next year. Failure to breed or to rebreed is primarily a matter of nutrition, not genetics. In nature, in the bison herd which developed here for thousands of years, every open heifer got another chance.

There's no way it's a free cow. It's worth what similar heifers you sold were worth when you sold them to begin with. Add feed and pasture at the going rate however many times until she calves. Salt, mineral, vaccines, anything you put into them. Depreciation of the bull you used to breed the group plus feed costs for him, semen test if you did it divided by the heifers bred. Preg check. If one in the group died divide her value by the remaining number in the group and add that too. I'm sure there's something I forgot to add.

 

[Warren Allison]

All of that is based on the assumption that you'll wean a calf of the same value from the purchased animal as you would from your home raised replacements. That's true of some farms, but again, not all.

I dunno that I agree with that. Your home-raised replacement is everyone else's sale barn cow, eventually. And the cow you buy at the sale is someone else's homegrown replacements. What years I did do cow-calf. my calves were the best in the county, and I didn't sell culls. I sold everyone I weaned. I raised them to take to the sale barn when they reached the weaning weight we liked down here - 400-450lbs. My worst one would have been a better calf than anyone else would have raised out of their herd. If I needed another cow or two, I'd take part of the money the calves were going to bring that day at the sale, and buy what cows I needed with it. Or maybe just because I saw one I liked. Never made any money raising horses, except when standing a stallion. Made a little more buying poor and/or green ones, and working with them to get them ready to sell better. But the MOST money I have made, is in the ones I bought and sold, and never owned more than a day or two....even less. Same with cows. You will make more money buying your replacements when you need them, instead of raising them. You will make more money weaning those calves at 400-450lbs in 5 or 6 mos. instead of getting closer to 1000lbs in 8-9 months. But the most money you can make with a cow, is in owning it a few days or less. Just like with horses, I try now to have a place for the cattle to go BEFORE I buy them. Just like with horses, the REAL money is in trading....buying and selling. And just like with a horse, ,you make or lose your money when you BUY them, not when you sell them. Soo nothing noble or superior about only raising your own cows or bulls, and certainly nothing smarter about it. Or more profitable. By the same token, cattlemen who buy their breeding stock, are just as good, probably better cattlemen than those who raise them. And arguably smarter businessmen. I like both kinds. I have made a lot of money off of those who raise their own.. putting blood, sweat and tears into developing a find herd of superior cattle. And when the inevitable, cyclical down-turn occurs, and they are about to lose the farm, I am happy to bail them out by picking up that herd up last minute, and sell it to one who has a good eye and prefers to buy his brood stock Or better yet, someone with money and no experience, that wants some cows to look at it, and some expert old cowboy to help them get some cows

 

[Nesikep]

I agree with Caustic Burno on this. Nesikep, you got to remember that if your retained heifer died, you can't write it off.....but if you sold it and replaced with another heifer, your newly purchased heifer would have taxable value (write it off if she dies). With that said, I agree that it makes good monetary sense to buy your replacement heifers in a commercial cow/calf operation UNLESS you just want to build your herd as a hobby, which is where I am. Personally, I just hope to not loose money when it is all said and done. Yes, I have a primary business that pays the bills, so if I'm somewhat smart, I can at least break even, or make it up in tax breaks. As far as inputs go, if my raised heifer dies, I hope she dies earlier versus later.

You're also missing the point that the heifer you sold is taxable income the year you sell her. Once you figure in that income, it comes out to exactly the same!

 

[Muletrack]

There's no way it's a free cow. It's worth what similar heifers you sold were worth when you sold them to begin with. Add feed and pasture at the going rate however many times until she calves. Salt, mineral, vaccines, anything you put into them. Depreciation of the bull you used to breed the group plus feed costs for him, semen test if you did it divided by the heifers bred. Preg check. If one in the group died divide her value by the remaining number in the group and add that too. I'm sure there's something I forgot to add.

I suppose you could figure in that stuff -- I never own bulls anymore. The bull is on my farm for 45 days then goes home to his owner. I don't charge my cows for the use of the pasture -- because they bought it, I didn't. Some fall-born heifers just aren't ready to breed in 15 months, so they get a second chance at the 45-day "date." An old rancher neighbor of mine breeds all his heifers to calve at three years old. I would not presume to tell him (who's been doing this thing for almost 80 years) how to make money. He never attends a cattle sale -- just tells the sales barn to send him his check. He said to me a couple of years ago, "Ya know, a million dollars ain't what it used to be." I had to agree, but noted with a grin, "I'll have to take your word for that, Billy." He gets no subsidies, and hasn't had TV since 1967. My hero.

 

[Rydero]

You're also missing the point that the heifer you sold is taxable income the year you sell her. Once you figure in that income, it comes out to exactly the same!

I'm confusicated how this is even an argument at this point. But idk fa about american taxes.

Don't sell a calf is a lack of income. Non taxable.

Sell a calf = taxable - deduction from buying a replacement.

Moral of the story is...Even if you retain heifers buy one more than usually dies at your place? How's the irs going to know if the one that died is one of the bought ones? At my place it would definitely be a bought one.

I bought some land one year and had more pasture than I could use so I ran some pairs for the guy I work for now with my own. I got a call one day that there's an animal with a pail on its head in my pasture. The guy calling couldn't tell me if it was a bull, cow or calf...so I called my renter while I drove over in case I was going to need a hand. Half way through he asked if it's my animal or his? I said idk it's got a pail on it's head but I'm sure it's yours!

 

[Muletrack]

Not losing my butt at all -- net worth is solid. I don't charge the cows for using the pasture -- they bought it, I didn't.

If you think that retained heifer is free you're loosing your butt.
Nothing in life doesn't have a co

 

[Rydero]

I suppose you could figure in that stuff -- I never own bulls anymore. The bull is on my farm for 45 days then goes home to his owner. I don't charge my cows for the use of the pasture -- because they bought it, I didn't. Some fall-born heifers just aren't ready to breed in 15 months, so they get a second chance at the 45-day "date." An old rancher neighbor of mine breeds all his heifers to calve at three years old. I would not presume to tell him (who's been doing this thing for almost 80 years) how to make money. He never attends a cattle sale -- just tells the sales barn to send him his check. He said to me a couple of years ago, "Ya know, a million dollars ain't what it used to be." I had to agree, but noted with a grin, "I'll have to take your word for that, Billy." He gets no subsidies, and hasn't had TV since 1967. My hero.

Some of us have to. Sounds like you and Billy are in a different "phase" of your operations. Nothing wrong with that, hope to get there. If the cattle paid for the land I guess they can use it.