Trusting you guys

[Brute 23]

You're also missing the point that the heifer you sold is taxable income the year you sell her. Once you figure in that income, it comes out to exactly the same!

Especially if you are in really high tax brackets. It's always tricky to grow your net worth with out paying out the wazoo in your high bracket. Retaining heifers is the same as putting money in your 401k or tax deferred IRA.

 

[SBMF 2015]

Your home-raised replacement is everyone else's sale barn cow, eventually.

(Not saying I do this right) We have a pretty good commercial cow herd. We feel that 99% of the cows that leave need to have their heads cut off. Our freeze brand is very distinguishable. On more than one occasion I have seen cows at a bred cow sale that we sent as mrkt cows the year before.

 

[Brute 23]

(Not saying I do this right) We have a pretty good commercial cow herd. We feel that 99% of the cows that leave need to have their heads cut off. Our freeze brand is very distinguishable. On more than one occasion I have seen cows at a bred cow sale that we sent as mrkt cows the year before.

Same here. I've seen some of ours for sale buy J&J. A guy I work with buys a lot of auction barn cattle. He has a pile of ours too.

 

[Nick Wagner]

Thank you for your condolences. Your "wind out of my sails" comment is spot on. Three months later, I am entering the anger stage of grief. It took losing a healthy older cow, last week, to bring it all to a head. She was healthy one day and down the next. Despite doing everything the vet advised, we lost a good cow. I'm tired of losing people and animals that mean a lot to me.

Space isn't an issue, but I understand your point. My plans are to build a solid herd of about 20 head. More than that would be a challenge for this independent woman, because my brother and I disagree on our approaches to managing cattle. I'm more proactive; he is more "let's wait until we have an issue and solve it" than to put in place steps to prevent issues.(vaccinations, mineral injections, etc.)

I know Herefords get dinged at the sale barn, but that is my preferred breed. I don't want to go the registered route, because I think there is a market for quality non-registered Herefords through private sales. I also realize I need to invest in quality cows and market the heck out of calves/cows to sell. I have a good bull that my father gave my brother and me to use.

I'm a kindergarten teacher by profession, and I help my brother manage my father's two herds of Hereford/ black baldy, plus a handful of red angus cattle. It totals 60 head. I know whose current and past calf is whose, which ones will freak out if pushed, and which ones lost calves or need to be culled.

I grew up around cattle, but I'm green in knowledge. In the past five years, my on-the-ground experience has skyrocketed. I've crawled under fences to bottle feed calves of protective mommas, treated a 1600 pound bull's cut foot, and helped pull calves. I've read books and have an experienced cattleman friend who doesn't discount my questions because I lack testicles. My brother discounts me because I lack testicles. He'll help me if I ask, but the bottom line is he thinks I have no business dealing with cattle. That lack of faith on his part drives me, in part, to learn all I can. The bottom line is I want to grow my herd of 8 into something impressive— not for the glory, rather for the sense of knowing I can keep animals healthy and provide an environment in which they thrive. Mostly, I love cattle.

You do what works for you but I do have some advise, salt it down and take it for what it's worth. Some, perhaps many, will disagree with me but do not let problem cattle reproduce, every problem has a genetic component. Good cows do not have an annual vet bill nor require you to play a vet. Do not fall in love with a cow, love watching and raising cows. Every calf born is not good enough to keep, culling is critical if you want to have a quality herd. Having dead stock is part of having live stock, a reality of life.

You should see this farm, classified as severely eroded by the soil conservation office. The worst clay knobs now have eight inches of topsoil on them, built by pasture and grazing. But it requires money from the sale of cattle to make it sustainable. Life, with purpose.

My dad once wanted to give me a cow that wouldn't stay in at his place, said she was too good to sell. I told him once she was on the trailer, don't stop at my place. It's that thinking, that she's to good to sell, that leads to bigger problems. Sell them early, before the problem multiplies.

You sound like you have plenty of spunk and a humble attitude, testicles notwithstanding. I'll be cheering in your corner.

 

[Muletrack]

Some of us have to. Sounds like you and Billy are in a different "phase" of your operations. Nothing wrong with that, hope to get there. If the cattle paid for the land I guess they can use it.

older is better!

 

[Lazy M]

You do what works for you but I do have some advise, salt it down and take it for what it's worth. Some, perhaps many, will disagree with me but do not let problem cattle reproduce, every problem has a genetic component. Good cows do not have an annual vet bill nor require you to play a vet. Do not fall in love with a cow, love watching and raising cows. Every calf born is not good enough to keep, culling is critical if you want to have a quality herd. Having dead stock is part of having live stock, a reality of life.

You should see this farm, classified as severely eroded by the soil conservation office. The worst clay knobs now have eight inches of topsoil on them, built by pasture and grazing. But it requires money from the sale of cattle to make it sustainable. Life, with purpose.

My dad once wanted to give me a cow that wouldn't stay in at his place, said she was too good to sell. I told him once she was on the trailer, don't stop at my place. It's that thinking, that she's to good to sell, that leads to bigger problems. Sell them early, before the problem multiplies.

You sound like you have plenty of spunk and a humble attitude, testicles notwithstanding. I'll be cheering in your corner.

Good post, and I think all would agree.. the rub is that we all have different definitions of "problem cattle". Reminds me of when I called the old neighbor to complain that his sorry bull was in my pasture (again) breeding all my cows. He had a long pause then said "you're welcome"..

 

[Caustic Burno]

Especially if you are in really high tax brackets. It's always tricky to grow your net worth with out paying out the wazoo in your high bracket. Retaining heifers is the same as putting money in your 401k or tax deferred

Especially if you are in really high tax brackets. It's always tricky to grow your net worth with out paying out the wazoo in your high bracket. Retaining heifers is the same as putting money in your 401k or tax deferred IRA.

No as the retained heifer has no value, she is only a liability eating inputs. If she craps out calving your 401 took a dump.
If I sell my heifer and buy yours I have no negative impact to my 401. If my heifer dies I can write off her cost, now it's like she is FDIC insured.

 

[Silver]

No as the retained heifer has no value, she is only a liability eating inputs. If she craps out calving your 401 took a dump.
If I sell my heifer and buy yours I have no negative impact to my 401. If my heifer dies I can write off her cost, now it's like she is FDIC insured.

Do you not do an inventory with values on your tax forms down there?
Even if you are right for your tax laws, the once in a while a heifer dies can certainly not the be the reason one would buy their replacements.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Do you not do an inventory with values on your tax forms down there?
Even if you are right for your tax laws, the once in a while a heifer dies can certainly not the be the reason one would buy their replacements.

Why keep a heifer with no value to the government in a terminal operation. It makes no financial sense.
If you're retaining for genetic improvement makes sense.
My input cost are the same on the retained or purchased heifer.
I sell the terminal heifer buying a heifer that now has value.
I reduce taxable bottom line and still have as many assets that have actual value.

 

[Silver]

Why keep a heifer with no value to the government in a terminal operation. It makes no financial sense.
If you're retaining for genetic improvement makes sense.
My input cost are the same on the retained or purchased heifer.
I sell the terminal heifer buying a heifer that now has value.
I reduce taxable bottom line and still have as many assets that have value.

Up here you inventory your cows, yrlgs, and bulls and assign a value to them.
I think most commercial operations are not terminal operations.
Developing a heifer reduces taxable bottom line.

I would agree, if one has no interest in genetic improvement then by all means, go ahead and buy replacements.

 

[NewMoo]

You do what works for you but I do have some advise, salt it down and take it for what it's worth. Some, perhaps many, will disagree with me but do not let problem cattle reproduce, every problem has a genetic component. Good cows do not have an annual vet bill nor require you to play a vet. Do not fall in love with a cow, love watching and raising cows. Every calf born is not good enough to keep, culling is critical if you want to have a quality herd. Having dead stock is part of having live stock, a reality of life.

You should see this farm, classified as severely eroded by the soil conservation office. The worst clay knobs now have eight inches of topsoil on them, built by pasture and grazing. But it requires money from the sale of cattle to make it sustainable. Life, with purpose.

My dad once wanted to give me a cow that wouldn't stay in at his place, said she was too good to sell. I told him once she was on the trailer, don't stop at my place. It's that thinking, that she's to good to sell, that leads to bigger problems. Sell them early, before the problem multiplies.

You sound like you have plenty of spunk and a humble attitude, testicles notwithstanding. I'll be cheering in your corner.

So, you're saying I should sell the cow and move on? I know that's what I should do, but right now, sentimentality is tipping the scale. I'll get there, but I want to give her another chance to calve. I'll make a decision after that. I also know not to fall in love with them, but I do. It's the animal lover in me. I suspect you'd say sentimentality has no business in a cattle operation.

I'm grateful for your wisdom and advice. It's rare I get wisdom shared unless it's in the form of a lecture. I do have spunk and I will make something out of this motley crew I have.

 

[Caustic Burno]

So, you're saying I should sell the cow and move on? I know that's what I should do, but right now, sentimentality is tipping the scale. I'll get there, but I want to give her another chance to calve. I'll make a decision after that. I also know not to fall in love with them, but I do. It's the animal lover in me. I suspect you'd say sentimentality has no business in a cattle operation.

I'm grateful for your wisdom and advice. It's rare I get wisdom shared unless it's in the form of a lecture. I do have spunk and I will make something out of this motley crew I have.

Ruthlessly culling is the only thing that makes money.
Now this was still at a time the shape of the cook was more important than the shape of the kitchen.
I had a commercial Brangus heifer that my wife bought 30 years ago or longer for 2K.
This statement says it all her name was Baby!

 

[farmerjan]

You know, one kept animal is not going to make or break you, right? So, keep her. If she does not breed back you have your answer. If she does and has a calf and raises it, good. If she has another problem, you have wasted a years worth of feed at best, you bury her at worst.
Every one of us has kept one that was a mistake.... and kept one that turned out good.
We have kept a few we shouldn't have. Kept a few that I am not sorry we did and they did good. I have buried a couple that were more than "just a cow". Buried my first guernsey milk cow, buried my first beef cow that was the foundation of many of my current offspring. But, I also accept that I am NOT RUNNING AN OLD AGE RETIREMENT HOME for cattle.
So, if you feel the emotional/sentimental need to keep her.... do it. Down the road you may feel differently. This is a connection that you presently need.

 

[NewMoo]

You know, one kept animal is not going to make or break you, right? So, keep her. If she does not breed back you have your answer. If she does and has a calf and raises it, good. If she has another problem, you have wasted a years worth of feed at best, you bury her at worst.
Every one of us has kept one that was a mistake.... and kept one that turned out good.
We have kept a few we shouldn't have. Kept a few that I am not sorry we did and they did good. I have buried a couple that were more than "just a cow". Buried my first guernsey milk cow, buried my first beef cow that was the foundation of many of my current offspring. But, I also accept that I am NOT RUNNING AN OLD AGE RETIREMENT HOME for cattle.
So, if you feel the emotional/sentimental need to keep her.... do it. Down the road you may feel differently. This is a connection that you presently need.

Gosh, thank you! That made me feel better about my decision. I'm grateful! (Haha to the old age retirement home, but so true)

 

[NewMoo]

Up here you inventory your cows, yrlgs, and bulls and assign a value to them.
I think most commercial operations are not terminal operations.
Developing a heifer reduces taxable bottom line.

I would agree, if one has no interest in genetic improvement then by all means, go ahead and buy replacements.

Okay, that is almost above my head, but I think I understand. Assign values, keep up with costs per animal and invest in quality stock with a focus on genetics. Educate myself in areas of tax related costs and benefits. Luckily, I have two family ac"cow"tants I can pump for free tax advice. Thanks! Much appreciated!

 

[TCRanch]

Ruthlessly culling is the only thing that makes money.
Now this was still at a time the shape of the cook was more important than the shape of the kitchen.
I had a commercial Brangus heifer that my wife bought 30 years ago or longer for 2K.
This statement says it all her name was Baby!

And nobody puts Baby in a corner!

 

[Nick Wagner]

So, you're saying I should sell the cow and move on? I know that's what I should do, but right now, sentimentality is tipping the scale. I'll get there, but I want to give her another chance to calve. I'll make a decision after that. I also know not to fall in love with them, but I do. It's the animal lover in me. I suspect you'd say sentimentality has no business in a cattle operation.

I'm grateful for your wisdom and advice. It's rare I get wisdom shared unless it's in the form of a lecture. I do have spunk and I will make something out of this motley crew I have.

CB and farmerjan are both correct. I've been guilty myself of letting an old cow die on the farm who has earned that privilege, hoping for a another daughter, but you have to keep your eye on the goal. I injured my leg some years ago, right in the middle of calving I couldn't get out to the cows for over a week, and didn't lose a single calf. Part of it was luck, part of it was due to the fact I cull any cow that needs assistance. I can't afford to let calves die, but if I have to help them they become market animals. Just one example how over time you can better your herd. Let nature be your guide, any animal in the wild who needs help generally dies. Avoid extremes.

One time a kid pulled in here pulling a brand new hydraulic table, he had went to school to learn hoof trimming and wanted my business. You should have seen the look on his face when I told him every Thursday was hoof trimming day at the nearest auction. But I know of herds that at least annually have a hoof trimmer come by. I'm sure every one of those cows are "good" cows, just ask their owner. I'm also sure the offspring of those cows will need their hoofs trimmed regularly.

 

[Buck Randall]

You do what works for you but I do have some advise, salt it down and take it for what it's worth. Some, perhaps many, will disagree with me but do not let problem cattle reproduce, every problem has a genetic component. Good cows do not have an annual vet bill nor require you to play a vet. Do not fall in love with a cow, love watching and raising cows. Every calf born is not good enough to keep, culling is critical if you want to have a quality herd. Having dead stock is part of having live stock, a reality of life.

You should see this farm, classified as severely eroded by the soil conservation office. The worst clay knobs now have eight inches of topsoil on them, built by pasture and grazing. But it requires money from the sale of cattle to make it sustainable. Life, with purpose.

My dad once wanted to give me a cow that wouldn't stay in at his place, said she was too good to sell. I told him once she was on the trailer, don't stop at my place. It's that thinking, that she's to good to sell, that leads to bigger problems. Sell them early, before the problem multiplies.

You sound like you have plenty of spunk and a humble attitude, testicles notwithstanding. I'll be cheering in your corner.

Keeping a cow does not necessarily mean allowing her to to have a genetic influence in your herd. I've seen people on here say that they automatically cull a heifer if they have to assist her with calving. That's a mistake, in my opinion. There are ways to keep your problems from multiplying without throwing away your investment in a replacement. Let that heifer stay and continue to have calves (she'll probably never have a problem again). Keep good records and make sure her calves are all sold as feeders. That way you're allowing the heifer to pay what she owes you without perpetuating her genetic line.

 

[Rydero]

Keeping a cow does not necessarily mean allowing her to to have a genetic influence in your herd. I've seen people on here say that they automatically cull a heifer if they have to assist her with calving. That's a mistake, in my opinion. There are ways to keep your problems from multiplying without throwing away your investment in a replacement. Let that heifer stay and continue to have calves (she'll probably never have a problem again). Keep good records and make sure her calves are all sold as feeders. That way you're allowing the heifer to pay what she owes you without perpetuating her genetic line.

This is entirely sensible. I'd cull a first calf heifer for temperament long before I'd cull her because she needed a little help with the first calf. Not even full sized, things need to be stretched etc. We're in a different boat than some. The weather ensures we have to be watchful but I agree it really isn't necessarily an indication of what's to come.

 

[Jafruech]

No as the retained heifer has no value, she is only a liability eating inputs. If she craps out calving your 401 took a dump.
If I sell my heifer and buy yours I have no negative impact to my 401. If my heifer dies I can write off her cost, now it's like she is FDIC insured.

There's a lot of ways to mitigate that risk though. Retained heifers should have calving ease built in. If they don't they shouldn't be retained.

If there is an issue and she doesn't die then sell her as meat.

My agribusiness policy that covers the ranch comes with livestock mortality insurance built in...if one dies while calving I get that payment plus I will get out there fast, and out to be processed. There's a USDA certified guy out here with a mobile unit that will come out and take them on the spot.

There are two ways that you can count retained heifers for taxes. Either as a part of your inventory or as capital assets. For the most part it makes more sense to keep them as inventory since you don't have a cost basis for them. If she dies then you offset any sold inventory you have that year.