Trask 4013

[RD-Sam]

I admire the way you try and analyse things and set up tools to try and help you, but again there is too many thing based on assumptions that simply isn't true. That is why I said you are lacking the base knowledge to fully understand and interpret the information, this isn't an insult, just my opinion.

You oversimplify certain traits, especially the economically important ones. These traits are mostly the result of quantitative inheritance and is the result of a combination of alleles. If I remember correctly WW is determined by 12 pairs of alleles, milking ability is even more. It's not a case of simple dominant and recessive genes. Unless you have genetic markers to identify these traits your spreadsheet is pretty useless.

There is still alot of research being done on these markers so at the moment that information essential for your spreadsheet to really be a helpful tool isn't available yet.

Which books about the G&S breeding methods have you read, maybe I can make a few suggestions on what you still need to read?

Can you give me an example of a false assumption due to lack of knowledge?

In regards to multiple allele dependent categories like the economic sensitive weaning weight, if the "calf has trait" for the weaning weight category (a predefined standard), as the result of the bull and dam also having the same state, are you saying it is possible for the progeny of the calf to not pass the trait to the next generation if the future calf's mate also has the trait?

The only breeding book I have read is Jim Lent's Basis of Line Breeding.

Just because a calf has a trait, does not mean sire and dam have that trait. Either could be lacking in a trait, but passed it on to the calf from the grandsire or granddam, or even further back. I don't agree that after the third generation the ancestors are meaning less either, things can pop up from 10 generations back, you never know. This is just another reason why linebreeding can be very helpful in gene concentration, less chance for surprises.

 

[HerefordSire]

Unless you lost a trait you wanted along the way, and Anxiety the 4th had that trait. Just because you loose something doesn't mean it's a bad animal, you may have gained a half dozen other qualities in the process. So you dip back in the pool for that trait you lost.

That is the point I am trying to make. If I have 6 additional positive traits in the more recent linebred bull relative to his grand sire, but also one less positive trait in the more recent linebred bull relative to his grand sire, I would think the chances of acquiring the one positive trait that was missed is not worth the probability you will lose some of the 6 positive traits aquired. I believe it would be better odds to not settle for the 6 positive traits and keep working for the 7 total positive traits by dedicating all resources to one bull instead of splitting your resources up and then having to go back to the original bull.

 

[RD-Sam]

But in linebreeding, you could also assume the six positive traits came from the original bull, even though he may not have had that trait himself.

 

[KNERSIE]

In short, yes it is possible for a calf to have poor WW genetics even if the sire and dam were strong in that trait, the random combination of genes from the sire and dam could just have resulted in the worst case scenario. Depending on exactly how the negatives combined the calf can even be very prepotent for that poor WW.

If statistics is your strong suit you'll understand the distribution under the bell curve and know that the curve goes theoretically to infinity at either end.

Read Hereford Husbandry, The Anxiety 4th Herdbook and Birth of a Breed, you'll learn much more from The Anxiety 4th Herdbook about linebreeding than you will ever learn from Jim Lents's book

 

[RD-Sam]

Where do you find books like those?

 

[HerefordSire]

In short, yes it is possible for a calf to have poor WW genetics even if the sire and dam were strong in that trait, the random combination of genes from the sire and dam could just have resulted in the worst case scenario. Depending on exactly how the negatives combined the calf can even be very prepotent for that poor WW.

If statistics is your strong suit you'll understand the distribution under the bell curve and know that the curve goes theoretically to infinity at either end.

Read Hereford Husbandry, The Anxiety 4th Herdbook and Birth of a Breed, you'll learn much more from The Anxiety 4th Herdbook about linebreeding than you will ever learn from Jim Lents's book

So how do you personally know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, when the original branch of your linebred tree becomes obsolete as the result of successful prepotent linebreed breeding? Does the orginal branch ever become obsolete?

 

[Herefords.US]

Where do you find books like those?

Amazon.com, but some are expensive.

Hereford Husbandry by Frank Farley -$135

Hazelton's History of Anxiety 4th Cattle - $375

Birth of a Breed (Sweet) - $7.95

I bought my copies off of eBay for less, but the market there on these books can be pricey as well, depending on how many are bidding on the same book when they come up for auction.

I'd also recommend "The Battle of the Bull Runts" by McCann.

George

 

[RD-Sam]

Where do you find books like those?

Amazon.com, but some are expensive.

Hereford Husbandry by Frank Farley -$135

Hazelton's History of Anxiety 4th Cattle - $375

Birth of a Breed (Sweet) - $7.95

I bought my copies off of eBay for less, but the market there on these books can be pricey as well, depending on how many are bidding on the same book when they come up for auction.

I'd also recommend "The Battle of the Bull Runts" by McCann.

George

Wow, that is really pricey for a book! Are they out of print?

 

[KNERSIE]

In short, yes it is possible for a calf to have poor WW genetics even if the sire and dam were strong in that trait, the random combination of genes from the sire and dam could just have resulted in the worst case scenario. Depending on exactly how the negatives combined the calf can even be very prepotent for that poor WW.

If statistics is your strong suit you'll understand the distribution under the bell curve and know that the curve goes theoretically to infinity at either end.

Read Hereford Husbandry, The Anxiety 4th Herdbook and Birth of a Breed, you'll learn much more from The Anxiety 4th Herdbook about linebreeding than you will ever learn from Jim Lents's book

So how do you personally know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, when the original branch of your linebred tree becomes obsolete as the result of successful prepotent linebreed breeding? Does the orginal branch ever become obsolete?

Not sure I understand you correctly?

Do you want to know how you would know without a shadow of a doubt when a bull has outbred himself? Or when the foundation sire isn't needed anymore? Or?

Edited to add: nothing in breeding is ever without a shadow of a doubt, each bull would still need to prove himself, thats why its alot easier to work with larger numbers of breeding animals.

 

[KNERSIE]

Where do you find books like those?

Amazon.com, but some are expensive.

Hereford Husbandry by Frank Farley -$135

Hazelton's History of Anxiety 4th Cattle - $375

Birth of a Breed (Sweet) - $7.95

I bought my copies off of eBay for less, but the market there on these books can be pricey as well, depending on how many are bidding on the same book when they come up for auction.

I'd also recommend "The Battle of the Bull Runts" by McCann.

George

Wow, that is really pricey for a book! Are they out of print?

yes, Birth of a breed is more readily available, but the other two are hard to find

 

[Herefords.US]

Wow, that is really pricey for a book! Are they out of print?

For many, many years! Hazelton's book was printed in 1939.

I missed the chance to buy a copy that once belonged to Alice's (of the CT board) uncle a few years back on eBay. It would have been nice to have owned Harrie Winston's copy of that book.

George

 

[HerefordSire]

Not sure I understand you correctly?

Do you want to know how you would know without a shadow of a doubt when a bull has outbred himself? Or when the foundation sire isn't needed anymore? Or?

Edited to add: nothing in breeding is ever without a shadow of a doubt, each bull would still need to prove himself, thats why its alot easier to work with larger numbers of breeding animals.

For a fictional example, let's say the principal Hereford tree branch of Trask was Mossy Plato 26. Trask proceeded to develop a great linebred grandson of 26 that was more prepotent than 26 himself. At what point does Trask never have to go back to the well, in this case to 26, because the breeder, in truth, has bred a better product?

 

[RD-Sam]

That's pretty simple.....when there is nothing to be gained by going back to the well, there is no need to go back. Why would you want to go back if you had a line that was better in every way?

OR, you could go back to the bull to create a line seperate from the other line in hopes of mating later down the road, for a little diversity. :tiphat:

 

[KNERSIE]

Not sure I understand you correctly?

Do you want to know how you would know without a shadow of a doubt when a bull has outbred himself? Or when the foundation sire isn't needed anymore? Or?

Edited to add: nothing in breeding is ever without a shadow of a doubt, each bull would still need to prove himself, thats why its alot easier to work with larger numbers of breeding animals.

For a fictional example, let's say the principal Hereford tree branch of Trask was Mossy Plato 26. Trask proceeded to develop a great linebred grandson of 26 that was more prepotent than 26 himself. At what point does Trask never have to go back to the well, in this case to 26, because the breeder, in truth, has bred a better product?

If the breeding plan goes according to plan there is no need to go back unless he feels that he has lost some of the original qualities of the line. Even then it would make more sense to go to a son of the bull out of a cow that is strong in the trait that you need to strengthen. Your "outcross" comes from the female side without leaving the original line completely.

It will always be wise to have a bull or 2 on reserve, just for incase the "next great sire" turns out not so great.

 

[HerefordSire]

TY Knersie, RD-Sam, Rocket, & GW and others. I really appreciate your inputs. Especially having the patience with me.

Greenwillow, sorry for the hijack.

I have to do more studying. I can see not knowing information at the right time can by costly when I get to a specific stage. There must be a map to a gold mine in those books that noone has found yet.

 

[jhambley]

George,

Ask Harley whose library stamp is inside his copy of Hazelton's book.

 

[Herefords.US]

George,

Ask Harley whose library stamp is inside his copy of Hazelton's book.

I sent Harley a PM. My copy is personalized, but originally to someone that I've never heard mentioned in Hereford cattle circles. It was a copy that I bought and gave to my Dad many years ago, then inherited it when he died. My Dad had made a few notes in it so that makes it special to me because I recognize his handwriting. Already having that copy was the reason I didn't buy Harrie Winston's book when it came up on eBay. But after the auction ended, I wish I had. I had visited their ranch a couple of times as a kid with my Dad.

Here is a link I found to a story about the Winston Brothers ranch:

http://www.snyderdailynews.com/2003november16/

Note the picture in the top right and click on the "full story" link under Historic Ranch Sells

George

 

[alexfarms]

I think an important point that may be missed in our discussion on these old linebred bulls and the men who made the matings to produce them is that these men were working to achieve the top product in the industry. The Plato Domino 1 son that was produced from the mating at the Kansas ranch won the national championship. They linebred these cattle, not just to maintain a line, they linebred to produce the best the industry demanded. I think a fair comparison to them today would be the Remitall cattle.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Lents says that each generation of his cattle is more prepotent than the one before. At the risk of oversimplification, I think there is a certain time frame before you reach the point of snowballing like that. But I think that what we're overlooking here is that the Anxiety 4th pool was also becoming more prepotent and improved(theoretically)as Trask was developing his own line, so each time he dipped back into it, he may have been tapping into a greater prepotency and improved traits as compared to his original trip to the well.

On a side note, IMO the current generation of Hazlett genetics as developed by Mr. Day is superior to the Anxiety 4th genepool of Mr. Lents when it comes to the total package, but for a combo of yield and quality grade, Choice at a yield grade 1, Hanging at 67%, the Lents cattle have no peers. The Day cattle will be 1 to2 frame scores larger, have an additional 100-200# of weaning weight, while having all the thickness, rivalling the muscle, and having more capacity; and consistently flawless udders and long life. Even in drought, he does not creep.

There, I hijacked my own thread!

 

[KNERSIE]

There, I hijacked my own thread!

Thank you, now the rest of us don't need to feel guilty anymore. :lol: