Trask 4013

[RD-Sam]

And so the plot thickens.... :idea:

I wish I were half as smart as RD-Sam. We are not the same person.

If you were half as smart as me about cattle, you could give 4CTophand a run for his money. :lol2:

 

[rocket2222]

I agree. We are referring to branches of a tree. When you wrote the Trask branch was refreshed with another wave of close Anxiey the 4th genes, I believe this was another way of saying Trask wasted time with prior crosses or genetic combinations, or even temporarily failed, since his orginal genes also came from Anxiety the 4th.

From what I've read in the past, [ old, slightly overworked brain, not always reliable ] DNA wise, your only good for three generations, the forth and any prior generations genetics have been so discombobulated by the last three generations they are irrelevant. This would lead me to believe that if you truly wanted to linebreed one particular animal, that animal would need to be reintroduced into your breeding plan at least once every third generation, to have any significant impact. This also means that in three generations, you can totally change the genetic make up of your herd. [ pretty obvious statement. ] Whether you are linebreeding, mix and match or outcrossing, it still boils down to the breeder making the right choices of who to breed too, thats going to make the difference on whether its a successful mating or not.

 

[HerefordSire]

I agree. We are referring to branches of a tree. When you wrote the Trask branch was refreshed with another wave of close Anxiey the 4th genes, I believe this was another way of saying Trask wasted time with prior crosses or genetic combinations, or even temporarily failed, since his orginal genes also came from Anxiety the 4th.

From what I've read in the past, [ old, slightly overworked brain, not always reliable ] DNA wise, your only good for three generations, the forth and any prior generations genetics have been so discombobulated by the last three generations they are irrelevant. This would lead me to believe that if you truly wanted to linebreed one particular animal, that animal would need to be reintroduced into your breeding plan at least once every third generation, to have any significant impact. This also means that in three generations, you can totally change the genetic make up of your herd. [ pretty obvious statement. ] Whether you are linebreeding, mix and match or outcrossing, it still boils down to the breeder making the right choices of who to breed too, thats going to make the difference on whether its a successful mating or not.

Mr. Rocket2222....I have three imaginary registered bulls and 40 imaginary registered cows. The prepotent bulls names are Anxiety the 4th, Don Carlos, and Beau Brummel and all the bulls are alive. I want to linebreed these bulls to my Sir Thomas based cows. The bulls are related just like in real life. The first time I bred the cows, I used Anxiety the 4th. The next time I bred the cows, I used Don Carlos. The next time I bred the cows, I used Beau Brummel. Are you saying my Beau Brummel heifers should be bred back to Anxiety the 4th? If so, I disagree with you. If we disagree, do you have an internet informational link to refer to?

 

[rocket2222]

Mr. Rocket2222....I have three imaginary registered bulls and 40 imaginary registered cows. The prepotent bulls names are Anxiety the 4th, Don Carlos, and Beau Brummel and all the bulls are alive. I want to linebreed these bulls to my Sir Thomas based cows. The bulls are related just like in real life. The first time I bred the cows, I used Anxiety the 4th. The next time I bred the cows, I used Don Carlos. The next time I bred the cows, I used Beau Brummel. Are you saying my Beau Brummel heifers should be bred back to Anxiety the 4th? If so, I disagree with you. If we disagree, do you have an internet informational link to refer to?

Mr Bidbuckler, It would depend on what traits each bull past on to their offspring, and what direction you want them to take, I don't think you can do this "by the numbers" for lack of a better way to say it. I think you have to think of it as more of a art form than a science project. Its up to the breeder to recognize which traits are more valuable and which ones need attention, ones to eliminate. The answer would be different as to what bull to use even within the 40 imaginary cows. Its what makes the difference between the average breeder and a good one. [ I'm still learning ] As for those DNA findings, I will find the paper I was reading and post the link, although it's probably been over a year ago, but I'm pretty sure I understood it correctly. You have to remember that the 4th genaration back would include the mix of DNA from 16 animals.

 

[HerefordSire]

Mr. Rocket2222....I have three imaginary registered bulls and 40 imaginary registered cows. The prepotent bulls names are Anxiety the 4th, Don Carlos, and Beau Brummel and all the bulls are alive. I want to linebreed these bulls to my Sir Thomas based cows. The bulls are related just like in real life. The first time I bred the cows, I used Anxiety the 4th. The next time I bred the cows, I used Don Carlos. The next time I bred the cows, I used Beau Brummel. Are you saying my Beau Brummel heifers should be bred back to Anxiety the 4th? If so, I disagree with you. If we disagree, do you have an internet informational link to refer to?

Mr Bidbuckler, It would depend on what traits each bull past on to their offspring, and what direction you want them to take, I don't think you can do this "by the numbers" for lack of a better way to say it. I think you have to think of it as more of a art form than a science project. Its up to the breeder to recognize which traits are more valuable and which ones need attention, ones to eliminate. The answer would be different as to what bull to use even within the 40 imaginary cows. Its what makes the difference between the average breeder and a good one. [ I'm still learning ] As for those DNA findings, I will find the paper I was reading and post the link, although it's probably been over a year ago, but I'm pretty sure I understood it correctly. You have to remember that the 4th genaration back would include the mix of DNA from 16 animals.

Bid R. Buckler. You should know by now what the R. represents. :mrgreen:

If Beau Brummel was prepotent to Don Carlos who was prepotent to Anxiety the 4th who was prepotent to Sir Thomas, then Beau Brummel would be a superior traited bull to all other linebred bulls including Anxiety the 4th and Anxiety the 4th should become obsolete in the herd because the best genetic combinations have already been selected for. That is, unless you made an incorrect selection of the bulls that were labeled prepotent. If I label a bull as prepotent to his HerefordSire to progress the linebred line, I am saying the bull is better than his HerefordSire. If the bull wasn't better than his HerefordSire, he wouldn't be labeled prepotent.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

[Quote from HerefordSire's post] "If I label a bull as prepotent to his HerefordSire to progress the linebred line, I am saying the bull is better than his HerefordSire. If the bull wasn't better than his HerefordSire, he wouldn't be labeled prepotent".]

Perhaps someone could explain this rhetoric to me in a little more understandable language! I seem to be confusing "HerefordSire" with his "HerefordSire". Being ..."prepotent to his HerefordSire..." is a little bewildering to me!

DOC HARRIS

 

[KNERSIE]

If Beau Brummel was prepotent to Don Carlos who was prepotent to Anxiety the 4th who was prepotent to Sir Thomas, then Beau Brummel would be a superior traited bull to all other linebred bulls including Anxiety the 4th and Anxiety the 4th should become obsolete in the herd because the best genetic combinations have already been selected for. That is, unless you made an incorrect selection of the bulls that were labeled prepotent. If I label a bull as prepotent to his HerefordSire to progress the linebred line, I am saying the bull is better than his HerefordSire. If the bull wasn't better than his HerefordSire, he wouldn't be labeled prepotent.

A bull becomes more prepotent because his genetic make up becomes more homozygous, for better or worse. Basically all you achieve is you limit the number of permutations in the random division of genes in the offspring, therefore the likelihood that the bull will stamp his influence on his get is increased.

If the selection was up to standard (and in this case it seemed to have been the case based on the success of the line) Don Carlos was obviously the halfsib selected to start the linebreeding process when mated to his halfsibs to concentrate the Anxiety 4th blood, these matings produced Beau Brummel who was likely superior to Don Carlos because of the concentrated Anxiety 4th blood (prepotency, what G&S wanted to achieve in the first place) and because of the selection pressure towards their ideal animal.

When you look at the pedigrees you'll see Anxiety 4th is a linebred bull so we can assume he was more prepotent than Don Carlos, who was basically the result of an outcross mating. Beau Brummel would have been more prepotent than Don Carlos, but not neccesarily as prepotent as Anxiety 4th.

Clear as mud?

 

[HerefordSire]

[Quote from HerefordSire's post] "If I label a bull as prepotent to his HerefordSire to progress the linebred line, I am saying the bull is better than his HerefordSire. If the bull wasn't better than his HerefordSire, he wouldn't be labeled prepotent".]

Perhaps someone could explain this rhetoric to me in a little more understandable language! I seem to be confusing "HerefordSire" with his "HerefordSire". Being ..."prepotent to his HerefordSire..." is a little bewildering to me!

DOC HARRIS

It was a play on words Doc. You can substitute sire for HerefordSire. :mrgreen:

 

[HerefordSire]

If Beau Brummel was prepotent to Don Carlos who was prepotent to Anxiety the 4th who was prepotent to Sir Thomas, then Beau Brummel would be a superior traited bull to all other linebred bulls including Anxiety the 4th and Anxiety the 4th should become obsolete in the herd because the best genetic combinations have already been selected for. That is, unless you made an incorrect selection of the bulls that were labeled prepotent. If I label a bull as prepotent to his HerefordSire to progress the linebred line, I am saying the bull is better than his HerefordSire. If the bull wasn't better than his HerefordSire, he wouldn't be labeled prepotent.

A bull becomes more prepotent because his genetic make up becomes more homozygous, for better or worse. Basically all you achieve is you limit the number of permutations in the random division of genes in the offspring, therefore the likelihood that the bull will stamp his influence on his get is increased.

If the selection was up to standard (and in this case it seemed to have been the case based on the success of the line) Don Carlos was obviously the halfsib selected to start the linebreeding process when mated to his halfsibs to concentrate the Anxiety 4th blood, these matings produced Beau Brummel who was likely superior to Don Carlos because of the concentrated Anxiety 4th blood (prepotency, what G&S wanted to achieve in the first place) and because of the selection pressure towards their ideal animal.

When you look at the pedigrees you'll see Anxiety 4th is a linebred bull so we can assume he was more prepotent than Don Carlos, who was basically the result of an outcross mating. Beau Brummel would have been more prepotent than Don Carlos, but not neccesarily as prepotent as Anxiety 4th.

Clear as mud?

This is not the official reply yet, but I didn't think anyone would catch that. I am very impressed.

 

[KNERSIE]

This is not the official reply yet, but I didn't think anyone would catch that.

Whether its satisfactory or not, its all I have time for and I'm done repeating myself when its just "for the sake of argument"

I am very impressed.

With what? The fact that I have also read the same books as you, the fact that I explained it so you could also understand or the fact that you've drawn me into replying again to you two?

 

[HerefordSire]

A bull becomes more prepotent because his genetic make up becomes more homozygous, for better or worse. Basically all you achieve is you limit the number of permutations in the random division of genes in the offspring, therefore the likelihood that the bull will stamp his influence on his get is increased.

If the selection was up to standard (and in this case it seemed to have been the case based on the success of the line) Don Carlos was obviously the halfsib selected to start the linebreeding process when mated to his halfsibs to concentrate the Anxiety 4th blood, these matings produced Beau Brummel who was likely superior to Don Carlos because of the concentrated Anxiety 4th blood (prepotency, what G&S wanted to achieve in the first place) and because of the selection pressure towards their ideal animal.

When you look at the pedigrees you'll see Anxiety 4th is a linebred bull so we can assume he was more prepotent than Don Carlos, who was basically the result of an outcross mating. Beau Brummel would have been more prepotent than Don Carlos, but not neccesarily as prepotent as Anxiety 4th.

Clear as mud?

In what case, as an example, would Beau Brummel not have been as prepotent as Anxiety the 4th?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Another example of excessive rhetoric!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Ned Jr.]

Bid R. Buckler. You should know by now what the R. represents. :mrgreen:

Ridicules???......just a guess.

 

[HerefordSire]

Another example of excessive rhetoric!

DOC HARRIS

Like your comment?

 

[HerefordSire]

Bid R. Buckler. You should know by now what the R. represents. :mrgreen:

Ridicules???......just a guess.

Like your comment?

 

[KNERSIE]

In what case, as an example, would Beau Brummel not have been as prepotent as Anxiety the 4th?

If his offspring proved to be less uniformly the desired type than the offspring of Anxiety 4th. The ultimate result is about the only way you can decide how prepotent a bull is.

How closely the bull is bred only give you an indication of how prepotent he MIGHT be, see it as the oldtimers' EPDs, it didn't mean much untill the bull was proven. Same as is the case with modern EPDs.

 

[HerefordSire]

In what case, as an example, would Beau Brummel not have been as prepotent as Anxiety the 4th?

If his offspring proved to be less uniformly the desired type than the offspring of Anxiety 4th. The ultimate result is about the only way you can decide how prepotent a bull is.

How closely the bull is bred only give you an indication of how prepotent he MIGHT be, see it as the oldtimers' EPDs, it didn't mean much untill the bull was proven. Same as is the case with modern EPDs.

I realize there is an art in accurately determining the trait homozygosity of the get of bulls. Some traits may be more difficult to distinguish than others, such as feed efficiency relative to eye pigment, and are based upon the ideals the breeder intends to pursue. Also, whether the trait is actually homozygous, where the bull, calf, and dam all carry the trait, appears to be the goal in breeding a prepotent animal. In other words, I want to know if a specific "positive" trait will be passed on to the get. Since I am not an artist with natural breeding talent, I create 100 measurable categories, for each calf, in an Excel spreadsheet to compare bull's gets. One category may be eye pigment and another may be a weaning weight standard of 600 pounds. It may look like this:

Maximum Sum = 3
Neutral Muliplier = 1.0
Homozygous = true when max sum = 3.0

-------------------------------------------------
Bull #1, Calf # 1, Eye Pigment, Factor 1.1
-------------------------------------------------
Calf has trait = 1
Bull has trait = 1
Dam has trait = 1
Homozygous sum = 3
Homozygous = true
Factored Total = 3.3
-------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------
Bull #1, Calf # 1, Straight Back, Factor 0.9
--------------------------------------------------
Calf has trait = 1
Bull has trait = 1
Dam has trait = 1
Homozygous sum = 3
Homozygous = true
Factored Total = 2.7
-------------------------------------------------

If the sum of each category is the maximum of 3, then I know the category is homozygous. All categories would not be equivalent in weighting, I could apply a factor to distinguish the importance of the trait. For example, the eye pigment category may be assigned a multiplier of 1.1, instead of a neutral 1.0, and the factored sum may be 3 * 1.1 or 3.3; Likewise, if didn't think a straight back category was more important than eye pigment, I could assign a factor of 0.9 and if the maximum sum was 3, the total factored sum for the straight back category would be 2.7; When I tallied all hundred measurable traits, I would know the percentage of homozygosity of each bull's get and the total factored sums of all traits.

When combined with performance ratios and or EPDs, would this be one valid system for a breeder to distiguish which bull was more prepotent, such as Anxiety the 4th or Beau Brummel? If so, how would this system compare to a great breeder like Trask or Gudgell and Simpson?

 

[KNERSIE]

I admire the way you try and analyse things and set up tools to try and help you, but again there is too many thing based on assumptions that simply isn't true. That is why I said you are lacking the base knowledge to fully understand and interpret the information, this isn't an insult, just my opinion.

You oversimplify certain traits, especially the economically important ones. These traits are mostly the result of quantitative inheritance and is the result of a combination of alleles. If I remember correctly WW is determined by 12 pairs of alleles, milking ability is even more. It's not a case of simple dominant and recessive genes. Unless you have genetic markers to identify these traits your spreadsheet is pretty useless.

There is still alot of research being done on these markers so at the moment that information essential for your spreadsheet to really be a helpful tool isn't available yet.

Which books about the G&S breeding methods have you read, maybe I can make a few suggestions on what you still need to read?

 

[HerefordSire]

I admire the way you try and analyse things and set up tools to try and help you, but again there is too many thing based on assumptions that simply isn't true. That is why I said you are lacking the base knowledge to fully understand and interpret the information, this isn't an insult, just my opinion.

You oversimplify certain traits, especially the economically important ones. These traits are mostly the result of quantitative inheritance and is the result of a combination of alleles. If I remember correctly WW is determined by 12 pairs of alleles, milking ability is even more. It's not a case of simple dominant and recessive genes. Unless you have genetic markers to identify these traits your spreadsheet is pretty useless.

There is still alot of research being done on these markers so at the moment that information essential for your spreadsheet to really be a helpful tool isn't available yet.

Which books about the G&S breeding methods have you read, maybe I can make a few suggestions on what you still need to read?

Can you give me an example of a false assumption due to lack of knowledge?

In regards to multiple allele dependent categories like the economic sensitive weaning weight, if the "calf has trait" for the weaning weight category (a predefined standard), as the result of the bull and dam also having the same state, are you saying it is possible for the progeny of the calf to not pass the trait to the next generation if the future calf's mate also has the trait?

The only breeding book I have read is Jim Lent's Basis of Line Breeding.

 

[RD-Sam]

Mr. Rocket2222....I have three imaginary registered bulls and 40 imaginary registered cows. The prepotent bulls names are Anxiety the 4th, Don Carlos, and Beau Brummel and all the bulls are alive. I want to linebreed these bulls to my Sir Thomas based cows. The bulls are related just like in real life. The first time I bred the cows, I used Anxiety the 4th. The next time I bred the cows, I used Don Carlos. The next time I bred the cows, I used Beau Brummel. Are you saying my Beau Brummel heifers should be bred back to Anxiety the 4th? If so, I disagree with you. If we disagree, do you have an internet informational link to refer to?

Mr Bidbuckler, It would depend on what traits each bull past on to their offspring, and what direction you want them to take, I don't think you can do this "by the numbers" for lack of a better way to say it. I think you have to think of it as more of a art form than a science project. Its up to the breeder to recognize which traits are more valuable and which ones need attention, ones to eliminate. The answer would be different as to what bull to use even within the 40 imaginary cows. Its what makes the difference between the average breeder and a good one. [ I'm still learning ] As for those DNA findings, I will find the paper I was reading and post the link, although it's probably been over a year ago, but I'm pretty sure I understood it correctly. You have to remember that the 4th genaration back would include the mix of DNA from 16 animals.

Bid R. Buckler. You should know by now what the R. represents. :mrgreen:

If Beau Brummel was prepotent to Don Carlos who was prepotent to Anxiety the 4th who was prepotent to Sir Thomas, then Beau Brummel would be a superior traited bull to all other linebred bulls including Anxiety the 4th and Anxiety the 4th should become obsolete in the herd because the best genetic combinations have already been selected for. That is, unless you made an incorrect selection of the bulls that were labeled prepotent. If I label a bull as prepotent to his HerefordSire to progress the linebred line, I am saying the bull is better than his HerefordSire. If the bull wasn't better than his HerefordSire, he wouldn't be labeled prepotent.

Unless you lost a trait you wanted along the way, and Anxiety the 4th had that trait. Just because you loose something doesn't mean it's a bad animal, you may have gained a half dozen other qualities in the process. So you dip back in the pool for that trait you lost.