The AAA Foot EPD

[Bright Raven]

Based on conversation (6/11/2019) with Kelli Retallick, Genetic Services Director, AAA.

The baseline data for the foot EPD is from data submitted by members on foot and claw evaluations since 2014. So 5 years of data. It has been supplemented with data that the Association staff have collected from large herds that have good genomic data.

An animal has to be at least a yearling before foot scoring. As I stated previously, the numeric scoring data is converted to an EPD metric. The reason there is no scale information from 1 to 4 on a visual scoring basis is because there is no data that had been reported where animals were scored in that range. Her thought is and she said this was not unexpected, most foot problems in the Angus breed fall in the 5 to 9 range - no heel and long claws.

In conclusion, the only option now to improve feet qualities is to breed to a bull with a foot EPD of less than 0.5.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I don't understand why ALL breeders weren't asked for foot scores since 2014??? That would affect the outcome if data came from "elite" group.

 

[Bright Raven]

I don't understand why ALL breeders weren't asked for foot scores since 2014??? That would affect the outcome if data came from "elite" group.

As I understood, ALL BREEDERS WERE ASKED, but it was not required.

This is something she and I talked about. Data takes time to "season". The reliability of the foot EPD will increase as the accuracy improves with time.

Sim Ang King - you ask, I hope I got the answer you wanted.

 

[T & B farms]

Thank you for reporting back. That is good to know

 

[dbird33]

Based on conversation (6/11/2019) with Kelli Retallick, Genetic Services Director, AAA.

The baseline data for the foot EPD is from data submitted by members on foot and claw evaluations since 2014. So 5 years of data. It has been supplemented with data that the Association staff have collected from large herds that have good genomic data.

An animal has to be at least a yearling before foot scoring. As I stated previously, the numeric scoring data is converted to an EPD metric. The reason there is no scale information from 1 to 4 on a visual scoring basis is because there is no data that had been reported where animals were scored in that range. Her thought is and she said this was not unexpected, most foot problems in the Angus breed fall in the 5 to 9 range - no heel and long claws.

In conclusion, the only option now to improve feet qualities is to breed to a bull with a foot EPD of less than 0.5.

So is the decimal point suppose to correlate to the 1-9 scoring criteria? Is a .3 bull for claw or angle epd correlating to a 3 on the score card?

 

[Bright Raven]

Based on conversation (6/11/2019) with Kelli Retallick, Genetic Services Director, AAA.

The baseline data for the foot EPD is from data submitted by members on foot and claw evaluations since 2014. So 5 years of data. It has been supplemented with data that the Association staff have collected from large herds that have good genomic data.

An animal has to be at least a yearling before foot scoring. As I stated previously, the numeric scoring data is converted to an EPD metric. The reason there is no scale information from 1 to 4 on a visual scoring basis is because there is no data that had been reported where animals were scored in that range. Her thought is and she said this was not unexpected, most foot problems in the Angus breed fall in the 5 to 9 range - no heel and long claws.

In conclusion, the only option now to improve feet qualities is to breed to a bull with a foot EPD of less than 0.5.

So is the decimal point suppose to correlate to the 1-9 scoring criteria? Is a .3 bull for claw or angle epd correlating to a 3 on the score card?

No. Does not correlate like that. It is a different metric. The scale from 1 to 9 is converted to an EPD metric by data modeling.

 

[dbird33]

Based on conversation (6/11/2019) with Kelli Retallick, Genetic Services Director, AAA.

The baseline data for the foot EPD is from data submitted by members on foot and claw evaluations since 2014. So 5 years of data. It has been supplemented with data that the Association staff have collected from large herds that have good genomic data.

An animal has to be at least a yearling before foot scoring. As I stated previously, the numeric scoring data is converted to an EPD metric. The reason there is no scale information from 1 to 4 on a visual scoring basis is because there is no data that had been reported where animals were scored in that range. Her thought is and she said this was not unexpected, most foot problems in the Angus breed fall in the 5 to 9 range - no heel and long claws.

In conclusion, the only option now to improve feet qualities is to breed to a bull with a foot EPD of less than 0.5.

So is the decimal point suppose to correlate to the 1-9 scoring criteria? Is a .3 bull for claw or angle epd correlating to a 3 on the score card?

No. Does not correlate like that. It is a different metric. The scale from 1 to 9 is converted to an EPD metric by data modeling.

Okay thanks for clearing that up. I thought that's how it worked, but wanted to clarify.

 

[Bright Raven]

So is the decimal point suppose to correlate to the 1-9 scoring criteria? Is a .3 bull for claw or angle epd correlating to a 3 on the score card?

No. Does not correlate like that. It is a different metric. The scale from 1 to 9 is converted to an EPD metric by data modeling.

Okay thanks for clearing that up. I thought that's how it worked, but wanted to clarify.

You are welcome. A foot angle and claw set EPD of 0.5 is the breed average and thus, considered "desirable". Since there was not sufficient scoring of feet in the range of 1 to 4, to improve feet the only option is to use a bull or bulls with a foot EPD below 0.5.

 

[76 Bar]

http://www.angus.org/Media/News/Ful...w-Foot-Structure-EPDs-Claw-Set-and-Foot-Angle
~ 20,000 records submitted. That number surely is a drop in the bucket.

 

[Bright Raven]

http://www.angus.org/Media/News/Ful...w-Foot-Structure-EPDs-Claw-Set-and-Foot-Angle
~ 20,000 records submitted. That number surely is a drop in the bucket.

Spot on. The AAA is well aware.

 

[76 Bar]

Spot on. The AAA is well aware.

If thats indeed the case it would be prudent if they ceased crowing about being the industry's largest beef cattle performance data base while embracing cherry picking.

 

[Bright Raven]

Spot on. The AAA is well aware.

If thats indeed the case it would be prudent if they ceased crowing about being the industry's largest beef cattle performance data base while embracing cherry picking.

Now, that, I disagree with. They ask the membership for data. They cannot demand it. The membership responded with a limited amount of data. They had to start somewhere. Patience! If you have ever used a large database where thousands of data points are required to establish a valid trend, you will understand.

They still have by far, the largest database in the beef industry. That would still be true if they dumped the foot data.

 

[wbvs58]

Ron, do you know who assesses the Feet? Is it an accredited assessor or the members themselves making the judgement? Over here it is only accredited assessors who can score the feet.

Ken

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

The members Ken. That's the flaw.

 

[Ebenezer]

Spot on. The AAA is well aware.

If thats indeed the case it would be prudent if they ceased crowing about being the industry's largest beef cattle performance data base while embracing cherry picking.

It makes the $M to be less accurate from the start to make the foot score or assumption of foot score a variable in the index. Sure not to enthuse as many on $M when they realize that.

 

[Ebenezer]

The members Ken. That's the flaw.

Same for disposition and the same folks measuring weights and heights, ....

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Weights and heights are quantitative measures. Disposition is subjective. Claw set is pretty obvious but angle a little less so.

 

[gizmom]

The association has requested that we (breeders) submit data. The foot scoring diagram is a very useful tool. All that being said we (our farm) has not turned data into the association, why you ask? Time just not enough hours in the day. We evaluate all of our cattle for claw and angle as well as depth of heel but jeeze Louise I just don't have time to send all of it to the association. I have notes but in order to turn it in a lot of additional time and effort is required. I just don't think everything can be solved by numbers, at some point you just have to be a cattleman. (Or woman). How does anyone find the time to turn in all the data the association is requesting? We quit turning in hip heights, heck all it takes is calf squatting in the chute and it can change your measurement by a frame score. I know the argument is it just takes a few more minutes but add a few minutes per calf when your working over a hundred head. Our crew consist of 4 broke down bodies that just can't do it all. Rant over.

Gizmom

 

[Bright Raven]

The association has requested that we (breeders) submit data. The foot scoring diagram is a very useful tool. All that being said we (our farm) has not turned data into the association, why you ask? Time just not enough hours in the day. We evaluate all of our cattle for claw and angle as well as depth of heel but jeeze Louise I just don't have time to send all of it to the association. I have notes but in order to turn it in a lot of additional time and effort is required. I just don't think everything can be solved by numbers, at some point you just have to be a cattleman. (Or woman). How does anyone find the time to turn in all the data the association is requesting? We quit turning in hip heights, heck all it takes is calf squatting in the chute and it can change your measurement by a frame score. I know the argument is it just takes a few more minutes but add a few minutes per calf when your working over a hundred head. Our crew consist of 4 broke down bodies that just can't do it all. Rant over.

Gizmom

Anyone over 60 Understands. We have to just keep probing forward.

There will become a time when the science is ready, that genomics will do most of the work.

 

[gizmom]

BR
I am going to call BS on that, genomics are a tool just e EPD's are a tool.

Gimom