Some of Greenwillow's Cattle

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Brandonm22":r29aeizz said:
I don't see why we are guessing or DNA testing. Buy a scale. At weaning run both the cows and the calves across the scale. Adjust the weaning weights and body condition score the cows. Divide the calves weights by their dams weights to get the efficiency numbers. Cull the least efficient cows, the open cows, and those with poor BCScores. Keep the heifers from the most efficient cows who bred back quick and maintain their condition. Repeat next year, the year after that, the year after that, etc on and on until the end of time....... If you end up with big framy cows....that's ok. If you end up with moderate framed cows......that's good too.

OK, lets do a 10 year test using your idea just to prove a point. Lets buy 500 Bos Indicus cows. You cough up 1/4 million cash (I can hold your land as collateral if you wish) and I cough up 1/4 million cash. Test the DNA for efficieny and fertility. I will take 250 of the most efficent and fertile cows and you take the least efficient and fertile cows. We do just like you said. I will guarantee you my cows and weaned calves will weigh more than yours if we had all the other same 50,000 variables. Do you have a deed?
 
HerefordSire":3m1enw6a said:
Brandonm22":3m1enw6a said:
I don't see why we are guessing or DNA testing. Buy a scale. At weaning run both the cows and the calves across the scale. Adjust the weaning weights and body condition score the cows. Divide the calves weights by their dams weights to get the efficiency numbers. Cull the least efficient cows, the open cows, and those with poor BCScores. Keep the heifers from the most efficient cows who bred back quick and maintain their condition. Repeat next year, the year after that, the year after that, etc on and on until the end of time....... If you end up with big framy cows....that's ok. If you end up with moderate framed cows......that's good too.

OK, lets do a 10 year test using your idea just to prove a point. Lets buy 500 Bos Indicus cows. You cough up 1/4 million cash (I can hold your land as collateral if you wish) and I cough up 1/4 million cash. Test the DNA for efficieny and fertility. I will take 250 of the most efficent and fertile cows and you take the least efficient and fertile cows. We do just like you said. I will guarantee you my cows and weaned calves will weigh more than yours if we had all the other same 50,000 variables. Do you have a deed?
HerefordSire-

Perhaps I am a little vague or naive, but I have read these two posts several times, and struggled with the examples of the math, and it seems a little strange to me, with all of the weighing, scoring, conditioning, adjusting, dividing, culling, and KEEPING the heifers from the MOST efficient cows who breed back quick and maintain their condition - why would anyone deliberately retain the LEAST efficient cows? It seems to be somewhat of an oxymoron that one would selectively choose to keep INefficient producers!? Have I missed the point here somewhere?

DOC HARRIS
 
The point in that exercise was missed by me as well. The point I was trying to make was that there are places like that research center in South Dakota where increasing frame and bulk just doesn't pay. The bigger cows require more for maintenance and if more is not available they milk less than a smaller more moderate cow. I wasn't suggesting that those kind of results were repeatable EVERYwhere. Whether a cow weighs 1000 or 1800 lbs, she isn't paying her way with a calf that at 205 days adjusts out to 34% of her body weight. I don't care whether she has the gene for feed efficiency and the gene for fertility (and I have seen a lot of fat and sassy cows that breed back quick every year wean little dinks). Nobody is telling Herefordsire not to breed big cattle. I like it that there are places where you can get Herefords and Angus that are bred for one thing and one thing alone and that is growth. They make dandy terminal and cleanup bulls.
 
HerefordSire-

Perhaps I am a little vague or naive, but I have read these two posts several times, and struggled with the examples of the math, and it seems a little strange to me, with all of the weighing, scoring, conditioning, adjusting, dividing, culling, and KEEPING the heifers from the MOST efficient cows who breed back quick and maintain their condition - why would anyone deliberately retain the LEAST efficient cows? It seems to be somewhat of an oxymoron that one would selectively choose to keep INefficient producers!? Have I missed the point here somewhere?

DOC HARRIS



Hi Doc.....did you happen, by chance, to read the prior text Brandonm22 and I exchanged (may make more sense)?

We would not deliberately retain the least efficient cows after calving. In the example I chose to make a point, I was advocating buying 500 cows and immediately after we bought them, we would have all of the cows DNA tested for efficiency and fertility. Since Brandonm22 mentioned to leave out DNA testing, I offered to take the most efficient cows immediately after we tested them and he could have the least efficient cows immediately after we had them tested. After we did this, then we would follow Brandonm22's management plan to a "T" and see how many pounds of skull and bones were produced (meat mainly). My point was that the cow efificency depends mainly on genetics and this efficiency can be bred just like all other traits. In my opinion, this is much much more important that any weight.
 
Are there differences in efficiency between cows even when they weigh the same? Yes and certainly it is quite possible too improve efficiency without decreasing frame size or body weight. THAT said, flesh is a living thing. Every pound of animal has to be fed every day. IF there is 400 pounds more animal there that 400 pounds has to be fed.
 
Brandonm22":2qu7z58u said:
Are there differences in efficiency between cows even when they weigh the same? Yes and certainly it is quite possible too improve efficiency without decreasing frame size or body weight. THAT said, flesh is a living thing. Every pound of animal has to be fed every day. IF there is 400 pounds more animal there that 400 pounds has to be fed.



Metabolism
Zerbini et al. (1996a) found that in working cows, glucose is an important energy source for the muscles; it is also important during reproduction. Fatty acids were found to be important for the synthesis of milk fat as well as reproductive hormones. Non-esterified fatty acids (NEFAs) and ß-hydroxybutyrate were found to increase in working cows whereas glucose, magnesium and inorganic phosphorous decreased.

Zerbini et al. (1996a) found a greater loss in body weight in working non-supplemented cows than in working supplemented ones. Glucose was decreased in non-supplemented cows, which stimulated the release of NEFAs from adipose tissue (150% increase in the plasma). Fatty acids were mobilised from the fat depots even in well-fed animals. This suggests that NEFAs are the principal fuel for the muscle tissue of working dairy cows. Reduction in NEFAs in poorly fed working cows explains the low conception rate. Energy restriction affects reproductive performance at the hypothalamic or pituitary level. This could be due to inhibition of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH).

http://www.ilri.org/InfoServ/Webpub/Ful ... odule3.htm
 
HerefordSire":muhlh5o5 said:
Brandonm22":muhlh5o5 said:
Are there differences in efficiency between cows even when they weigh the same? Yes and certainly it is quite possible too improve efficiency without decreasing frame size or body weight. THAT said, flesh is a living thing. Every pound of animal has to be fed every day. IF there is 400 pounds more animal there that 400 pounds has to be fed.



Metabolism
Zerbini et al. (1996a) found that in working cows, glucose is an important energy source for the muscles; it is also important during reproduction. Fatty acids were found to be important for the synthesis of milk fat as well as reproductive hormones. Non-esterified fatty acids (NEFAs) and ß-hydroxybutyrate were found to increase in working cows whereas glucose, magnesium and inorganic phosphorous decreased.

Zerbini et al. (1996a) found a greater loss in body weight in working non-supplemented cows than in working supplemented ones. Glucose was decreased in non-supplemented cows, which stimulated the release of NEFAs from adipose tissue (150% increase in the plasma). Fatty acids were mobilised from the fat depots even in well-fed animals. This suggests that NEFAs are the principal fuel for the muscle tissue of working dairy cows. Reduction in NEFAs in poorly fed working cows explains the low conception rate. Energy restriction affects reproductive performance at the hypothalamic or pituitary level. This could be due to inhibition of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH).

http://www.ilri.org/InfoServ/Webpub/Ful ... odule3.htm



"We predict the intake based on how big the animal is and how fast the animal grew," Carstens explains. "So an animal that eats less than predicted will have a negative (in this case that is good) net feed intake or improved net feed efficiency. An animal that eats more than predicted would have a positive net feed intake or poor net feed efficiency. Obviously the animals we are trying to identify and propagate through selection are those animals that eat less than predicted.

"The value in looking at net feed intake as an alternative measure of feed efficiency is that we can account for feed requirements for maintenance and growth with this trait," Carstens adds. "Australian research has shown that net feed intake is moderately heritable and is independent of the animal's growth rate."



Preliminary results to date

While most of the data for this project are still being analyzed, one thing is clear: These animals with so much in common definitely have differences in terms of net feed intake and efficiency.

Steers in the low NFI group (meaning more efficient), ate 17 percent less feed than the high NFI group, even though their growth was similar. In terms of profitability, that's a significant difference. Carstens explains, "If we use a ration cost of $120 a ton, and … if efficiency could be improved by 10 percent, through selection, we can save about $25 per animal in feed costs to put 600 pounds of gain on a feedlot steer."

Why are some animals able to maintain themselves with relatively less feed intake?

"Other research suggests the reason the low NFI cattle consume less feed, though they weigh the same and gain the same, is that the low NFI animals have lower maintenance energy requirements," Carstens explains. "One of the questions we're trying to ask, beyond the physiological indicators, is do these animals have lower maintenance energy requirements?

"Roughly, if we break it down and look at a cow herd from conception to weaning," he says, "looking at the total energy required on an annual basis, about 70 percent of the total feed energy that goes into that cow herd to produce weaned calves is going toward cow maintenance. It's big chunk.

"The key is can we do it without impairing the cow's productivity?" he asks. "This is why we need to conduct more research to make sure that two or three generations down the road we don't end up with cattle that reproduce less efficiently or produce tougher carcasses."

http://www.texascattleraisers.org/issue ... easure.asp
 
"Recently, Oddy and Herd (2001) suggested that there are five mechanisms contributing to variation in efficiency under genetic control that could be studied, which are as follows: 1) feed intake, 2) digestion of feed, 3) metabolism, 4) activity, and 5) thermoregulation. To this list we would add those that have received most of the attention: 6) rate or gain, 7) BW, and 8) prolificacy. Also, metabolism must be separated into at least two components: 3a) maintenance and 3b) growth metabolism. None of these traits can be ignored, if only to ensure minimum or no negative consequences. "

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/81/13_suppl_1/E27
 

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