Snow questions

[linbul]

Hello everyone,
Everyday I learn something new and usefull here. As we still raise mostly dairy steers, we put them in buildings during the winter. They just don't do well outside and don't graze at all if there is some snow cover.
This year we started raising beef cattle, just to "get our feet wet". That brought many new questions, most of them had their answers already in other folks topics. Now we have the snowing started and I realize I don't know some things You could say it's dumb :

- as our land is mostly rolling hills, there are many snow-drifts (? places with deep snow). How stupid are the beef cows and do they "know" they shouldn't go in the deep? If once they have a track in the snow, do they stay on it?

- we have plenty of land and therefore many stockpiled pastures. As we have sometimes snow cover more than 3 feet, Is there some max snow cover where cows could graze the stockpiled pasture.

Before You think it's too late for me to ask these questions, I'll tell you I have the option just to keep the cattle in the farm (buildings and yard) and Yes, we have enough hay. I just need that info to gain experience for the next winter, when we are planning to have some more than 100 beef cows. If that matters, the breed now is Herefords and some Simmental (Fleckvieh), In the future going to be mostly baldies. Thanks in advance.
Here the snow is not so big, but believe me, sometimes it's almost covering the barn

 

[Bez+]

Millions of beef cattle stay outdoors in North America

When I was a young boy we always left the dairy cows and calves outside - although that has changed over the past generation or so

Our beef cows stay out even when it gets colder than minus 40 - all they need is some shelter from wind - so hills and trees are your friend.

We have some dry whole corn available to feed if we want but generally if the hay tests out at 9 - 11% we do not supplement them with any grain - too expensive - other than some mineral and hay they get nothing - they do very well - we feed for 7 months of the year this way.

In fact we calve with snow on the ground

You will see there are no real problems keeping the beef outside - they will stay with the food.

We always place the bales where we want the manure to be placed.

Some will say it is wasteful - but we do not have to clean pens, haul manure and spread manure.

So we "bale graze"and there are many in western Canada that do this - when it is penciled out, the wasted hay comes to far less than the pen cleaning cost - which include hauling and spreading costs, spring fertilizer costs, pen repairs, and so on.

A great added cost savings is there is little to no wear and tear on the tractor - no starting it every day and running it for an hour or two - no warm up times - etc. We never have to use the tractor in the winter to feed because it is alreay in place - just waiting for the cows to be walked up to it when we open the gates. No fuel costs either.

All bale grazing means is we place the bales in the fields before the snow comes - then we turn the cows in. When the cows have cleaned up one area, we simply move them to another.

We take the twine or the net wrap off the bales when we place the bales in the field as we use round bales - they maintain their shape and shed water - this also removes the problem of frozen wrap on the bales being left in the fields to be picked up next spring.

The next year the pastures come back very, very strongly where we leave the bales for them to eat so we do not buy fertilizer any more.

One additional cost that is saved by doing this is there are no straw or bedding costs. They sleep on the waste hay and in warmer weather will lay right on the packed snow.

Most of our cows have water available - but the older ones will not walk the 400 metres to get it - they stay at the hay and eat the snow - so we also have a water heating cost savings.

Like you we have longer winters and longer feed times than most in the US of A - so this makes our lives much easier.

Altogether we believe we save over 30% of our original carrying costs by doing this as compared to the days when we kept the cows in a confined area to feed them.

Every year we place the bales in a different location to ensure good coverage of the fields.

As well, we run Horned Herfords - British breeds are an excellent animal for cold weather .

Your winters are quite like some areas of Canada - whch is where I live.

You will be fine.

Regards

Bez+

 

[Jalopy]

Bez+ about how many bales per cow do youset out for your cattle each year?

Do they have free range to all at one time? or dou you section off parts of teh pasture until they clean up most of the usable bales before you allow access to more bales?

Thanks
JLP

 

[linbul]

Bez+ Thank You so much!
You are one of the persons, that make that board so great.

Just to mention, it's not quite the same here with winters in Canada. Our farm is at high altitude and that's the reason of heavy snowing. The temperatures are not so low, -12C average in January, and we start grazing in April. I've never considered bale grazing as an option, that was a good advice. Thanks again. :tiphat:

 

[Bez+]

Bez+ about how many bales per cow do youset out for your cattle each year?

Do they have free range to all at one time? or dou you section off parts of teh pasture until they clean up most of the usable bales before you allow access to more bales?

Thanks
JLP

We set out six to eight bales to a cow. These are 5X4 bales - the big bales tended to give us more waste so we changed to 5X4 try it out - then tried the 4X4 - we found that on our place 5X4 seemed to work best. We are feeding right now at home and may feed until the middle of May or so.

We put them all over the farm - at one time that was a bit more than 3,000 bales

We are small timers now

We used to put them in groups of about 50 - 100 bales - only rarely did we go to groups of more than 100 bales - we tried to keep the manure in concentrated areas

I guess I did not explain it very well - we did not let them have all at once - each group of bales was in a separate area - sometimes in the same field - but they will not travel far to get to the other side of the field if there is food "here" they stay there until it is gone. Especially when it is cold and the snow is deep - the other bales get well camoflauged in no time. And cows are stupid - sometimes you have to lead / drive them to the new bale area because the snow is so deep they will not willingly travel.

We set them out and started the cows on the bales that were close in to the house - that way when they came for water they did not pass other bales - as they ate the bales we moved them farther back. Never let them walk past standing bales if you do not want them to be eaten.

While it does not go over well here with some folks - there are places where we would keep the cows that we supplied no water - they licked snow - as do many cattle in the western parts of Canada

In other places we had fenced fields and would gate them out. Sometimes we would have several different groups of cattle in several different areas.

Open cows / heifers in one area and next years steers in one area, bred cows in another, bulls in another. It was actually well planned out - but anyone with a bit of brain work can work it out for any sized herd. I saw it one day on a drive to Red Deer and thought I would try it - so we just jumped in and did it - should stop by that guys place someday when I am back there and thank him for the idea - never did talk to him about it - it worked like a charm right from the start

Heck we do it now with our little 25 - 35 head herd. And we will leave the yearlings in another area on hay. We do not pen ANYTHING to be fed other than what we will eat ourselves. We spend no money an additions - and yes - there is wasted hay - but no one factors in all the other costs - because they tell me on this board they can run a tractor for next to nothing in winter at a cost that does not matter - and I say BS to that - so we do it this way and it works. And then they forget about the time, and the fertilizer for the pasture in spring and the cost of cleaning, hauling and spreading manure and the cost of bedding and the cost of pen and fence repair and the beat goes on.

We have NONE of those expenses - and it is so easy. I am away for two years on a middle east deployment and my wife runs the show with no effort.

Northern Rancher is on here and I know he has done it and maybe still does it. I suspect he is a believer as well.

Until you try it you can not believe it - and if you do not want to try it - that is fine - it works for us and that is all that well and truly matters to me. But if you do I think you will be happy - your place and your rules - but others here do it as well - so it must work!

The less I spend and the less I work for the cows - the happier I am.

I check them - or rather the wife does - on a ski-doo once or twice a day depending on how things are going and the mood of the day

Cheers

Bez+

 

[Bez+]

Bez+ Thank You so much!
You are one of the persons, that make that board so great.

You're welcome

As to the second thought - you will see how popular I am after I respond to someone who comes here asking what to do with that down cow that has been laying in the field for two weeks and asks - "Should I call the veterinarian?"

8)

My best

Bez+

 

[JRGidaho`]

Bez... That was a great post!

linbul,

Regarding the question of how much snow we expect a cow to graze through. We rarely get more than a foot where we live (high desert, 6000 ft elevation) and this is never enough to even slow the cows down.

We have friends across the line in Montana who regularly expect their cows (1400 hd) to graze through 1-2 ft of snow until it crusts. The crusted snow is a real problem. One way they have dealt with it is running outfitter horses over the winter with the cows. They run one horse per 10 - 15 cows. The horses will break the crusted snow and then the cows graze where the horses have opened up the snow cover. They don't charge the outfitters anything for wintering the horses. They penciled it out that it is still cheaper to carry the 100+ extra horses and give up roughly 10% of their stockpiled pasture than it is to feed hay.

 

[MO_cows]

Bez - thanks for the great post and great info.

Did you lose any more or any less animals by bale grazing versus the winter pen feeding?

 

[Bez+]

Bez - thanks for the great post and great info.

Did you lose any more or any less animals by bale grazing versus the winter pen feeding?

I can honestly say that we lose so few in both cases that I have not really seen a difference. I would say our losses overall on the farm are and were so low that I would think people here would challenge me if I started to talk about them - so I will leave it at that.

One difference I do notice is the health seems to be better in the field. Less foot issues and certainly less respiratory issues.

Calving in the field is nice because everything is so clean - as long as there is some old hay laying about the cows seem to use it - and the calves sure smarten up in a hurry and realize it is warmer to lay there than on snow - but I do know a couple of folks who use a chopper to lay out straw for calving - we used to but have stopped - that one is a personal call and you ave to make that decision based upon the immediate local conditions in the field - or move them to a better location.

If a cow cannot have a calf under the normal circumstances at OUR place - she is gone. Some folks like to do the "give them another chance"- we used to - no longer - one mistake and you are out the door. Sounds harsh - but in the end it is cheaper - even is she is a good cow - than keeping her for another full year for free - screw that - pay your way or die.

Cheers

Bez+

 

[LoveMoo11]

I have Angus and a Hereford and I live in central Maine-they have a three sided barn to go into if they so choose, but they really don't use it much. They sleep outside in the middle of blizzards and it doesn't bother them a bit. I'll go out in the morning and they will be laying outside, snow covered. One thing you do want to be careful of is ice because you don't want them splitting themselves so make sure they have a safe place to walk.

 

[P.A.L]

Nice scenery in Bulgaria!

Here in Finland we have now 15cm+ of snow. It will get to 50cm-1m during the winter. Snow melts in end of april. Chilly weather like -35C is no problem if watering system can handle it.We have Herefords and some angus and they enjoy snow. Snow keeps feet clean and prevents some deseases. Sometimes i feed cows on pure snow with a balescredder. I think cows need some exercise before calving. It's easy to move them by feeding away from stalls and they have to walk for hay and water. Biggest "danger" in winter is, if cows run loose on a frozen lake. If the ice brokes you got a problem. Yesterday 400 reindeers died that way in sweden....

 

[P.A.L]

Millions of beef cattle stay outdoors in North America

When I was a young boy we always left the dairy cows and calves outside - although that has changed over the past generation or so

Our beef cows stay out even when it gets colder than minus 40 - all they need is some shelter from wind - so hills and trees are your friend.

We have some dry whole corn available to feed if we want but generally if the hay tests out at 9 - 11% we do not supplement them with any grain - too expensive - other than some mineral and hay they get nothing - they do very well - we feed for 7 months of the year this way.

In fact we calve with snow on the ground

You will see there are no real problems keeping the beef outside - they will stay with the food.

We always place the bales where we want the manure to be placed.

Some will say it is wasteful - but we do not have to clean pens, haul manure and spread manure.

So we "bale graze"and there are many in western Canada that do this - when it is penciled out, the wasted hay comes to far less than the pen cleaning cost - which include hauling and spreading costs, spring fertilizer costs, pen repairs, and so on.

A great added cost savings is there is little to no wear and tear on the tractor - no starting it every day and running it for an hour or two - no warm up times - etc. We never have to use the tractor in the winter to feed because it is alreay in place - just waiting for the cows to be walked up to it when we open the gates. No fuel costs either.

All bale grazing means is we place the bales in the fields before the snow comes - then we turn the cows in. When the cows have cleaned up one area, we simply move them to another.

We take the twine or the net wrap off the bales when we place the bales in the field as we use round bales - they maintain their shape and shed water - this also removes the problem of frozen wrap on the bales being left in the fields to be picked up next spring.

The next year the pastures come back very, very strongly where we leave the bales for them to eat so we do not buy fertilizer any more.

One additional cost that is saved by doing this is there are no straw or bedding costs. They sleep on the waste hay and in warmer weather will lay right on the packed snow.

Most of our cows have water available - but the older ones will not walk the 400 metres to get it - they stay at the hay and eat the snow - so we also have a water heating cost savings.

Like you we have longer winters and longer feed times than most in the US of A - so this makes our lives much easier.

Altogether we believe we save over 30% of our original carrying costs by doing this as compared to the days when we kept the cows in a confined area to feed them.

Every year we place the bales in a different location to ensure good coverage of the fields.

As well, we run Horned Herfords - British breeds are an excellent animal for cold weather .

Your winters are quite like some areas of Canada - whch is where I live.

You will be fine.

Regards

Bez+

This is interesting! I need to go to Canada to see it my self. Want learn more...

There will be lot of manure on surface of the field. Will the pasture hay grow trough or do you cultivate it some how? reseed?

 

[linbul]

Thanks to everyone posted here.
About the bale grazing (thanks again Bez+) - maybe it's not recommended when you buy some hay from another place, because of the weeds and other seeds "coming" with it and spreading with the fresh manure.

@ P.A.L. - yes it's beautyful most of the time here, but just now I don't see the tips of my shoes because the fog Should hang some bells on my cows to be able to find them :shock: . Best of luck to You.

 

[Bez+]

Thanks to everyone posted here.
About the bale grazing (thanks again Bez+) - maybe it's not recommended when you buy some hay from another place, because of the weeds and other seeds "coming" with it and spreading with the fresh manure.

@ P.A.L. - yes it's beautyful most of the time here, but just now I don't see the tips of my shoes because the fog Should hang some bells on my cows to be able to find them :shock: . Best of luck to You.

Seeds from hay in other locations will sprout after being eaten and through the cow - then dropped on the ground. Corn is one proof of that.

We have added seed to grain at times to promote grass growth in remote and rugged areas. Yes, it does work. And the cows eat it, transport it and place it for us. Not real efficient but it is easier than doing it by hand.

The seeds will sprout from falling from bales as you transport them across a field or into your feeding area.

The seeds will sprout after falling from the truck as it drives through your yard and through your fields.

In the end there is little you can do.

However - this is very important and most people do not pay attention to this:

Cows will eat most weeds at certain stages of growth. They also tend to gain additional vitamins and minerals from those plants we call weeds. A balanced field is like a balanced meal - it will indeed reduce your mineral costs.

So - a nice field of brome grass or aflfalfa or timothy or whatever - looks nice. It makes for nice hay and it can make for nice pasture - but there is a darned good chance it will NOT provide all the nutrients the cow needs. So we end up buying minerals to supplement their feed requirements. Added cost.

Do not think of weeds as being all bad.

By the way the grass grows up through the hay that is left on the ground. In the areas it does not - it will come the following year. It always comes with a vengeance and you will actually have more growth near the bales - for obvious reasons - concentration of solid and liquid manure.

Regards

Bez+